Thread for those who neither loved nor hated the movie

I strongly disliked the story treatment for both TFA and this movie but I love Star Wars so I try to stay positive and enjoy the music, the emotions and the cinematography. I rather have bad star wars movies than no star wars movies.
At least I liked Rogue One very much so I'm hopeful for the future.

 

(clap, clap, clap) very funny lol . You should put a humor tag in front.

 

So is this the ballance?

 

This movie actually shows me the conflict that force users must feel.

In fact, Star Wars fans almost fit into either the Sith or Jedi camp with this episode. Filled with hate or at peace with what has happened.

 

I mean this thread!

 

I think whether the film is good or not is kind of irrelevant in some ways.

Take the prequel trilogy for example. I think many would agree that they are not particularly good movies, in fact, some can be considered down-right bad films. The thing about them is though, they do form part of this cohesive whole that is the Skywalker saga, and the fact that they do flesh out and contribute to that saga makes them tolerable and allows you to remain excited about Star Wars and the story in general - knowing that there is a greater overarching story-line to all of this.

The problem with this film is that it might actually be a good film, but one that does not work as Episode VIII of the Skywalker saga. It may have made for a good anthology or spin-off film, but it does not feel like it adds to the greater overarching story-line and it does not feel like it is attempting to work on bringing all of the plots and elements of every film and converging them into the penultimate chapter that will set up the finale that will provide complete and total closure to the saga.

 

I suppose that's a valid comment however you can't make that kind of judgement until IX has been released. The only reason you can make sense of TPM and AOTC is because they are prequels therefore arriving at an already established plot point. This new trilogy is precisely that - its new. I don't think you can judge its validity to the Skywalker saga until you have seen it In its entirety.

Sometimes its not about the destination, its a case of enjoying the ride until you get there.

 

I have posted this in every opinion thread so far so why not this one?

I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
"We are what they grow beyond" as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan did with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn't win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo's mind but couldn't see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn's ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her "legend" image of "the Finn". The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ's betrayal lead into Finn's defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name "rebel scum". These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo's mask
Rey's parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin's Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent's identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and "the last jedi".

The two suns aren't merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then, ready for something greater. "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter"

I wrote this in a past post but I don't think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he's wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

 

Problem with Luke's story arc in those flash back scenes with Ben Solo is Luke is shown as a conflicted Jedi master whether to kill or not to kill Ben Solo in his sleep.

Luke knows Snoke has already clouded Ben Solo's mind and he is just a push away from fully embracing the dark side, so Luke is conflicted to kill Ben Solo in his sleep. For a moment Luke gives into the conflict and ignites his green light sabre but immediately he grasps the reality and decides not to kill his nephew.

Ben Solo is terrified by this. So he collapses the roof and slaughters Luke's students and escapes from his academy and ultimately becoming the Kylo Ren.

Yes 30 years have gone and Luke may not be the same person what he used to be in ROTJ but he had already been there in this exact conflicted state in ROTJ.

In ROTJ, when Luke defeats Vader his own father and decides not kill him, he doesn't give into the hate. At this juncture he stood face to face with the devil and looked the devil in the eyes and said exact quote "Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi like my father before me". -Luke Skywalker.

Luke sensed the conflict in Darth Vader and he still had hope that he can be redeemed. Luke was right and succeeded in redeeming Vader.

I don't know what RJ was thinking when he was developing Luke's story arc because Luke is not some coward to kill his nephew in his sleep. Luke would have rather stopped teaching and abandon Ben and would have faced him in a duel face to face like a Jedi.

I know a lot of people will say that this movie is all about letting the past go, choices which they make and when meeting their ideals they are not what they thought to be but it doesn't justify making Luke Skywalker as the creator of Kylo Ren. If not for that cowardly scene it would have been Snoke who is the creator of Kylo Ren.

I don't whether any of you have noticed what Rian Johnson has done with Luke/Kylo flash back scene is the exact opposite of the Looper ending scene. In Looper young Joe shoots himself thus he prevents Cid from becoming the rainmaker. In a nut shell young Joe prevents his future Joe from killing Cid's mother, so Cid will not embrace the darker path and he may be able to control his telekinetic power. Eventually young Joe will not be the creator of rainmaker he rectifies the mistake made by his future Joe.

It's just flip flopping Looper's ending into Luke and Ben flash back scenes.

Future is not set, it is the choice that the characters make will set their future course.

Where has Obi-wan Kenobi failed Anakin ???

Like Snoke, it is Darth Sidious who seduces Anakin of immortality and it is Anakin's fear of losing Padme like his mother Shmi sets the course for his journey towards dark side not Obi-wan Kenobi. Obi-wan Kenobi loved Anakin like his brother.

 

After a Jedi and a Sith thread now we get the Bendu thread I think this is where I feel at home.

 

This is not going the way you think

 

I think what Luke saw in Ben's mind was traumatic. He said he acted in a fleeting moment of instinct. I think a big point in the film is that people make mistakes and nothing is as simple as good or evil, black and white. Even the force.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 18, 2017 ---

He says he failed him at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

 

Well, I didn't leave the theater angry, so that makes it better than EP7. But there are a few things I find funny/odd about it.

The First Order seems to be strangely inept in their battle tactics. In the beginning, with the dreadnought, when they saw that the ship's weapon batteries were being destroyed and saw bombers coming in, why didn't they move Destroyers in to protect it? They had a whole fleet of them just sitting there...watching... Later when they're chasing the cruiser, why couldn't they simply do a quick hyperspace jump in front of the Resistance fleet and cut them off? It makes no sense. They just expect that showing up with overwhelming force is good enough to win battles. They apparently learned absolutely nothing from the Empire's defeat.

I find it odd that the only being in the galaxy capable of bringing balance to the Force was then unable to maintain that balance. Very strange.

Also, it is tactically unsound to have vehicles that draw lines in the dirt wherever they go. It makes them easier to target. *shrug*

And who uses bombers that don't have shields? Seriously, that's just an accident waiting to happen... One stray laser blast and kaboom!

Finn and Rose fell into one of the classic blunders. The most famous: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less well known is this: Never trust Benicio Del Toro when death is on the line! (cue snide, hysterical laugh)

 

You know what, you’re right.

With regards to the creation of Kylo (Luke vs Snoke). In some ways it’s as though RJ went back to ESB and thought the “No, Obi-wan killed your father” twist was better than the “No, I am your father” twist. Let’s make Luke a villain, and a coward, then give him a chance to redeem himself later. In the words of Mark Hamill: Jedi have resolve, they have tenacity. The theme is good, and I can appreciate it, but this ain’t Luke.

Overall, it came off as pretty cheap to me and an excuse not to properly explain Ben’s turn to the DS, nor why Luke came to the conclusion that killing Ben was necessary. Where did that decision come from? Even if it was for the briefest of moments, how was he driven to that conclusion? What happened? Show us, don’t just tell us and force us to accept it. This is a story - tell it, show us the process.

 

Wasn't Obi-wan killed your father just a smokescreen to keep the plot twist No,I am your father ? or No Obi-wan killed your father was originally planned as an alternate ending ? I don't remember which one it is former or latter.

Yes like what you have said to me also it never felt like Luke even for a briefest moment.

In TLJ, RJ has directly contradicted Luke Skywalker's characteristic traits on the basis of Luke giving into fleeting moment i.e. What if ????

Here I am quoting the exact conversation between Luke and Rey when Rey confronts Luke on Aach-To

Here Rey is right on the money, she says Luke had failed Ben by thinking his choice was already made. Who knows what would have Ben Solo's future if Luke hadn't gone on to ignite his green light sabre that tragic night.

Again people will say that this movie is all about people making mistakes and even legends make mistakes but then again if making mistakes and passing on failure is taken as a pivotal plot element then there are loads of characters not just in Star Wars saga but other franchises also who had made a lot of mistakes, can this be used as a plot element for developing their character arc ???

Making mistakes and passing on failure are moot points always open for questions and debate.

It's wafer thin to justify that Luke made a mistake by giving into that fleeting moment or briefest moment that tragic night.

Like I have mentioned in my previous post, many would have seen Rian Johnson's 2012 LOOPER.

In LOOPER young Joe for that briefest moment realizes it is the old Joe the creator of Rainmaker. So he kills himself which breaks the chain of events and Cid will not travel down the dark path.

Here in Star Wars TLJ Rian Johnson flip flops the ending of LOOPER as the flash back scenes.

In a nutshell Old Joe from Looper is Luke Skywalker from flash back scenes with Ben Solo (Old Joe=Luke from flash back scenes).

Young Joe from Looper is young Luke Skywalker's astral projection or whatever (Young Joe=Luke's young astral projection).

To me vilifying Luke based on wafer this points like by giving into fleeting moment and making mistake is absurd.

 

They should give 9 to Gareth Edwards and see what he can do. Gawd knows he can't do worse lol.

 

Coward! Pick a side and fight!