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Vader's plan in TESB...

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Get In Gear, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. TheJackSack

    TheJackSack Clone Commander

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    Vader didn't think of going to Bespin until Boba Fett started tracking the Falcon. Fett probably quickly determined the Falcon's course and sent that intel to Vader. Once Vader got to Bespin, he began to realize that he was able to set a trap for Luke by staying put there after capturing Solo. Remember, it's all about Luke and Solo for Vader. He doesn't know what importance Leia holds with respect to Luke or himself for that matter. All the while, I'm guessing Vader was increasingly frustrated with his lack of ability in sensing Luke because Luke was on Dagobah, a potential blind spot in the Force because Yoda used that planet for decades as a hideout. And as mentioned earlier, Vader and the Emperor had no idea Yoda was still alive (or where he was located, for that matter).

    BTW, you started a fantastic thread.
     
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  2. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Yoda used Dagobah because it had the darkside presence that hid him from the emperor & was a perfect location for Luke to be trained there undisturbed.
     
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  3. Darth Daigo

    Darth Daigo Rebel Official

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    While this question may not be directly related, I was wondering when the Emperor learned about Anakin's children? At the end of Revenge of the Sith, the Emperor knows that Padme is pregnant. Then, in the Empire Strikes Back, he tells Vader that the Rebel pilot that they are searching is Anakin's son.

    Has the Emperor always (i.e., between ROTS and ESB) known about Luke and Leia? If so, why did he not try to kill them when they were still small children? If not, when and how did the Emperor learn about Luke's existence? The new comics tells us about how Vader learned about Luke (prior to the Empire Strikes Back), but not about how the Emperor had gotten that information.

    It seems uncharacteristic that the Emperor just accepted the fact that the child died with Padme. Obi-Wan did not only have to hide Luke from Vader but also from the Emperor. Vader might have been reluctant to return to Tatooine, but the Emperor did not have such reservations.
     
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  4. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Well, IMHO, Lucas created a bit of a problem for himself, because the back story was always going to be this:

    The problem being, that makes a whole lot of sense from the perspective of episodes four to six... and so Vader encountered Luke, and Palpatine sensed a great disturbance in the Force and figured out what that disturbance was.
    But, putting yourself in Lucas's shoes, when you come to make episodes one to three, you realise you are not just finishing off the story you started by filling in the events that led up to it, you also have to make it narratively rewarding on its own merit. So you are faced with various options which roughly boil down to: not showing young Luke and Leia at all, or having a nine-month piece of exposition to deal with - whereby Anakin is in your movie, his wife is also in your movie, but they are not together and Anakin does not know she is pregnant.

    Fitting in with what was "originally intended" Anakin should have betrayed the Jedi, become a Sith and screwed over the galaxy before he knew Padme was even pregnant. But then what happens in your film? Do you kill all that action at the climax with scenes showing the formation of the Rebellion; what Padme did next, leading up until the babies were due to be born? Do you just have "nine months later" caption flash up and then we cut to the events which make up the montage at the end of ROTS?
    Neither option is very satisfactory - you want those final brief scenes to be punchy and just tie up loose ends without disrupting the pace of the movie (hence Yoda arriving on Dagobah and communicating with Qui-Gon ended up on the cutting room floor).

    I think Lucas realised he had to fudge this issue. He had to make Anakin know about the pregnancy so that Padme was ready to give birth in time for the end of the movie for everything to be tied up neatly.

    So, in terms of the original trilogy, I believe Vader was obsessed with finding Luke after encountering him above the first Death Star. He sensed something and became intrigued with this until he got to a point where he was thinking "how could I possibly have a son...?"
    Palpatine eventually picks up on the "disturbance in the Force" and works out what it means because he knows his blast.
    Throwing the prequels into the mix, Vader's intrigue is subtly changed to "so my son was born after all, how could I not have known about this until now...?"
    And Palpatine - well, how did he know Padme had died in the first place? I don't know, I guess he still works out who Luke is at the same point in the saga regardless, some time shortly before he decides it is important enough to contact Vader in TESB.
    Simply because the laws of screenwriting kind of dictate that if we are told Luke and Leia had to be hidden to prevent the Sith finding out about them, and the Sith do nothing about the children for 20 years, then we must presume hiding them worked, because we are not told it didn't work.

    At least, that's how I see it...
     
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  5. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Easy.

    You have Anakin make his first turn to the dark side at the end of Episode II and go off with the Emperor to do dark-sidey things, and then when Obi Wan tells his wife about what has happened she confides in him that she's pregnant. Then the "cliffhanger" becomes about whether Obi Wan can "rescue" Anakin and bring him back to the good side of the Force in Episode III and reunite him with his wife and children.
     
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  6. Eddy1877

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    How would the story be better if Anakin turned before he knew about the pregnancy? It doesn't seem to matter in ROTS anyway. Lucas portrays Anakin as being the stereotypical "accidental parent." Padme is still the most important person in his life. He doesn't say to Sidious, "Please..., just help me save my children. I can't live without them." He says, "...just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."

    The precise moment in a nine month window when Anakin learns about the pregnancy is irrelevant, because he was too immature to be a father anyway -- to love the children more than his wife. The events in ROTS would be exactly the same, whether he learned of the pregnancy the morning after, or 8 months later (It's not official but I think the twins were a month premature, right?).

    As for "Vader's plan in TESB," the recent comics have clarified that. When Vader holoconferences wtih Sidious he's lying through his teeth. He already knows that Luke is his son. And his plan is exactly as he stated: for Luke to join him and dethrone Sidious. If Vader successfully froze him on Bespin, he'd have lied to Sidious again and probably said that Luke escaped -- all the while hiding him in his castle and training him in the dark side.
     
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  7. ICUP

    ICUP Guest

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    The comics have made Vader's plan even more awesome
     
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  8. Grand Admiral Juno Eclipse Marek

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  9. AfroJedi69

    AfroJedi69 Rebel Official

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    I just watched Empire last night and something Vader said got my attention: "The rebels are there, and Skywalker is with them". Now, I don't think Skywalker is too common a name in a galaxy far, far away. Then when Vader goes before the Emperor and says; "How can this be?" I'm thinking "Waitaminute, you KNOW you have a son! How many Skywalkers do you think are out there that can shoot photons down an exhaust port?!" Vader was faking ignorance! He wanted Luke to join him and didn't want the emperor to find out. When he did, Vader acted surprised, becaused he "wasn't" supposed to know he had a kid. I'm sure Palpatine knew that Padme had survived and had given birth. That mu%^#@&! set Anakin up with her in AOTC, so he knew they would "get together", just like he knew they got married. Vader realized this and was going use Luke for his revenge. You can imagine the conversation between him and Luke: "That Mu$#@%!! lied to me son! He told me I'd killed you and your mother! Everything I did, was to save you and her from dying..why do you think I joined the darkside? For this suit? He told me if I joined, I would have the power to save your mother. Only AFTER, did that jerk tell me we would have to "find a way" to do it! HE NEVER HAD ANY CLUE AS TO JUST HOW WE COULD CHEAT DEATH!!! ALL THAT WAS SOME OLD BULL$#%#!!! Look at me son, I'm all F#@$@ UP! Do you KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE TO GO TO THE BATHROOM IN THIS SUIT!! Why do you think I have a meditation chamber?!! It doubles as a toilet! Please son, for my sake and the sake of your dead mother: KILL THAT MU#@$%@ING EMPEROR!!!!(dark)
     
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  10. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

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    I think that's exactly it. And the Darth Vader comics agree! They've provided a moment or two or three that speak to this theory.
     
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  11. AfroJedi69

    AfroJedi69 Rebel Official

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    Really? I guess I should start reading Star Wars comics again. Hadn't read one since that stupid green rabbit started showing up!!!:D
     
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  12. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Jaxxon?
     
  13. AfroJedi69

    AfroJedi69 Rebel Official

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    Is that his name? I thought it was Bucky, but heck that was SO long ago!:)
     
  14. Crapiola

    Crapiola Clone

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    To me, this was never an issue. Vader saw this young Skywalker boy once - although he didn't know it at the time - on the first Death Star. The kid was watching while Obi-Wan did his Houdini act (WTF!?) and reacted quite emotionally. Obviously this kid was attached to Kenobi. Later on, minus one Death Star, when Vader discovers the kid's identity and gets all obsessed, he probably reflects on the one moment he actually saw his face. The reaction to Kenobi's death did not seem to suggest Kenobi did a good job training the emotions out of the youth. If anything, one might say - on the Skywalker kid's emotional control - that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

    As far as Skywalker's Force skills, Vader witnessed those himself. He was trying to shoot this X-Wing in the first Death Star's trench. Not only did Vader have a hard time making that shot, the young Skywalker didn't have a hard time making his shot and blowing up quadrillions of galactic credits!

    So Vader made the assumption that young Skywalker would rush to the rescue of his friends, if they were to be caught and tortured a bit. The Skywalker kid seems emotional and sufficiently Force adept to sense the distress of his friends. Of course, no matter how much Obi-Wan got to help him before doing his disappearing act, the Skywalker youth would be no match for Vader.
     
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  15. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    I really don't think that there's any basis for your claim that Vader and the Emperor never thought of the possibility that Yoda trained Luke. Vader and the Emperor are plotting against each other, so they may have deliberately not told each other about things such as the possibility that Yoda trained Luke.
     
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  16. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Why would they have needed to keep something like that from one another when they both knew full well who Yoda was and what he was capable of? My point was that Yoda's prominence in the PT story (and in the day-to-day lives of Anakin and Palpatine) made their automatic assumption in ESB and ROTJ that Obi Wan and only Obi Wan must have trained Luke seem awkward. Yoda was no secret for either of them to hide, once it had been established in the PT that he had been part of the Coruscant bureaucracy during the Clone Wars.

    The reason it worked in the OT, prior to the PT retcon, was that for all the audience knew, Yoda might have been on Dagobah for hundreds of years, training whatever prospective Jedi the Force happened to lead his way, in which case it would make perfect sense that neither Vader nor the Emperor would be aware of him. Sorta like, the Force's best-kept secret.
     
  17. Darth Sidious

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    To hide that they're plotting to use Yoda-trained Luke against each other. Whoever Luke joins, he could surprise the other by using what he learned from Yoda.

    Also, in the ROTJ novelization, the Emperor mentions Yoda having trained Luke.
     
  18. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Much of what was added to the ROTJ novel (like Owen being Obi Wan's brother) was, I am fairly certain, stuff that the James Kahn added on his own, and not actual material that Lucas gave him.

    Uh... so both of them know all about Yoda, but they're going to pretend that they don't so that Luke can do some surprise Yoda-stuff against whichever one gets paired off against?

    Sorry man, I genuinely think that I'm not following you on that one. Where'd I lose ya?
     
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  19. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Plus, the passage in which Palaptine refers to Yoda in the novel is being taken out of context - Luke surrenders the info about Yoda involuntarily, much like how Vader discovers Luke's sister.

    To me that implies Palpatine only just figured out Yoda may have trained Luke in that moment on the second Death Star... so, if anything, the novel actually works against the idea that the Emperor knew Luke could have been trained by Yoda prior to this encounter...
     
    #39 Get In Gear, Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  20. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    That's what I was thinking. It's been YEARS since I read RotJ, but I thought I remembered that they kind of mind probed Luke and got the name Yoda. I don't remember them acting like they really knew who Yoda was. Either way. This is just a bad case of the PT not doing a good job of getting the little things right. You can only "certain point of view" the audience so much. It get rediculous after a while.

    But in the movie, Yoda could've been dead for years for all they know. He went to Dagobah and hid himself. No one senses him. Remember when Tarkin said he believed Obi Wan to be dead and that Vader was the last of his kind? I'm thinking everyone just assumed Yoda was dead for some reason. Maybe Yoda or Bail Organa did some CSI trickery to make everyone think Yoda was dead?
     
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