Were "fan expectations" the problem?

I would not compare Endgame with TLJ.

I would rather compare IW and TLJ because both set the stage for the final.

 

I'll address this as best I can as someone who liked TLJ and Endgame but didn't like that Thrones ep.

Spoiler

Snoke has been a part of the Star Wars lore since TFA. He was never given any major scenes or build up. He was just there and then he wasn't. He was almost all a fan concoction in terms of how important he was.

Game of Thrones STARTS with the arrival of the white walkers and the Night King. He is baked into the beginning of the lore. He is interwoven into the fabric of the Westerosi mythology. He's the oncoming storm. He is the existential threat. This would be more akin to Chewbacca killing the Emperor while Luke screams at the Rancor outside the throne room. We all love Chewbacca. Chewbacca is great. But that's not Chewbacca's fight.

Ultimately, I have no problem with Arya being the one to do it, she is an assassin after all. I do however, have a problem that it sidelined Jon Snow from his main story for no reason at all. All I needed was Jon involved at all in that final moment.

Tracking Jon's story, he was brought back by the Lord of Light for a reason. That reason was to win the Battle of the Bastards, be named King in the North and hold Winterfell long enough for Arya to choose to see him in the North rather than heading south to kill Cersei. That's the critical role one of the biggest moments in the show has been reduced to. And this isn't during a 30 year gap like in Star Wars. It's been a year. Everything is still in play.

Compare this to the subversion used in TLJ: We expect Luke to be Uber Luke. We get grumpy Luke. Through all this, Luke learns this isn't just his fight and he needs to ensure that in the end the next generation is ready for this fight. And he uses the greatest display of force power we have seen on screen. Luke ultimately still fufills his role as the New Hope of the galaxy again.

Jon Snow's entire arc outside of a few lines has been building towards the long night. He gathered all the troops. He unified foes. He brought wildlings south. He did all the damn heavy lifting. And he spends the climax of this hiding behind a wall? Even if he is shown just getting Arya into position it works. Or if he died in the process. The lines/events being used for Arya to make sense for this being her shining moment are thin to me. They are very generic and could apply anywhere, where as Jon's story is really kind of all about this. It's subversion for the sake of subversion which makes it different than TLJ to me.

Subverting fan expectations is fine. But there has to be a payoff for it. And Luke coming back in the end is the payoff. He WAS that Luke the whole time.

I know this is probably a poor explanation for why I feel one way about this and not TLJ and people will think it's hypocritical and I accept that but I see a very clear difference.

I'd go into Endgame but I do not know if you have seen it and would hate to spoil it.

 

No worries, I've seen Endgame as well.

To clarify, I have absolutely no idea how the next three episodes will go, and this is based on nothing more than pure speculation, but some people might even consider that a spoiler so I figured I'd be up front about that.

Again, just another huge note that this contains Game of Thrones spoilers. I really, really don't want to be that guy

Spoiler: Game of Thrones spoilers

I think there's a big presupposition here that it is Jon' story. I'd argue that's not necessarily the case. I've seen some good arguments that Jon and Dany will eventually choose each other in the end, and forsake the throne (if you're interested, I can send you the source of that speculation if I can find it again).

If that's the case, obviously this is going to go a lot differently than people think. But already, I'm just not sure Jon and the NK were really all that intricately tied. Like, sure they've "met" before, and Jon has been the voice of reason of the war on the dead. But he got Dany to Winterfell, and given how poorly the battle was planned I can't help but assume he played a major part in that as well. Maybe that was his part?

Meanwhile Arya, the assassin, the "no to the god of death since Season One" girl... I dunno, that sounds like she's not nearly as random a claim to this story. I don't think it's subversion for subversion's sake at all.

Either way, the show has a huge entourage cast. Thinking that any one character is entitled to a specific payoff is probably not often going to work out very well.

But, of course, all this is subjective. I can't really understand how anyone could view something the other way, even after having it explained to me- but that doesn't invalidate their own opinions, obviously.

 

let’s dig into this one...

Spoiler

First of all, season 8 was shot 2 years ago. The post production took an enormous time
and that Arya’s move was foreshadowed in season 7. So... not. The scenes are similar, but it's just coincidence.

That said, I don’t see people calling Arya a Mary Sue, because she clearly isn’t.
Her entire arc is about training and in the episode itself, she’s about to die before being saved by Berich and the Hound.

And truth to be told, I see people making the opposite case (Rey = Mary Sue vs Arya =/= Mary Sue)

Surely however, some have found the scene cheap. Or the classinc "deus ex machina" moment.
I do too... but I still enjoyed it a lot.

That said, the main complaints come from books readers, that complain regardless, because they
consider “the others” story line, the prophecies etc.. the core of the serie.

Problem is - and I say this as a huge lover of the novels - that the TV show is mainly about the Throne, not the Othres and long night.
In fact is called GoT not ASOAF.
The "fantasy" aspects are important but they've never been the most important thing for the tv show.

Same for the NK. The NK is a character that doesn’t even exist in the books.
I always believed that he was introduced in the show as a simplification.
To avoid explanations, not to give them.
And I believe that he served the purpose in the context of the tv show.
Those who believed that the main game wasn’t going to be that of throne, imo, took it wrong.

So yes... we may say that the NK is the Snoke of GOT. But I never cared about Snoke too and I also have to say
that even if I believe that he was there as a simplification of a far more complex lore.. a backstory and a goal was given.
That regdless.
But surely yes: expectations in this case are playing a part. And mainly books readers expetations.

The other problem is wheater or not Arya was always meant to be the one that would have killed the NK.
And I agree with those who say she wasn't.
Starting from D&D that said they decided that 3 years ago.

More importantly... the case "it was supposed to be someone else" has strong arguments.
That given the TV show only.

The 3 eyed raven doesn't give a sh*** about the throne.
If so, why were Jon's true parents so important for Bran until the night before the long night, if that wasn't related to the end-game of the long-night, not of that of the throne?
Why it was so important, that one of the last thing the former 3 eyed raven did before dying was to show Bran Jon's birht?
More importantly: what's the point of the entire Bran's arc, if his power was meaningless for the endgame of the long night? What about the scene between Bran, Myra and Jojen with Jojen's hand
kind of burning when he was speaking about (as someone who has visions of the future) about the endgame of the long night?
What meant uncle Benjen when he said that Bran would have been ready, when the long night had came, if he did... nothing?
If things are going to stay like that Brab had to become the 3 eyed raven only to be used as a bait.
Which is, ok... but... hum... anticlinatic to say the least.
Why was Jon resunrected? Only to take back Winterfell? It's again... ok, but anticlimatic.
Even more so because the lord of the light - that resuscitated Jon via Melisandre, killed Berich and Melisandre when the long night ended but not Jon.
If the NK was capable of marking Bran touching his arm in a vision... why he didn't left a mark on Arya's neck?
And if he turned Craster's babies with a touch... why is Arya still a human being?

ect...

But... Jamie, Brienne, Theon, Edd, Sam, Tyrion and Sansa (by far my favourite scene of the episode... I adored it, jst because it's not a romance, it's 2 adults that understand and truly respect each other) there was such much good in the episode and in the serie...
that personally I don't care.
But I see why people have some problems.

And I cannot help but think, that just because Jon is set up to win the throne and Dany is set up to become a mad queen/die... they chose Arya to not give the male hero it all.

 

Oh I'm absolutely willing to give them three more episodes to make it all work out and make sense.

Spoiler

I'm not saying the whole thing is Jon's story but he was certainly our POV and vested interest in the war between living and dead. This switcharoo (for the lack of a better term) can work in a book setting but I'm not sure it does in a show. I won't care about Jon on the throne because, quite frankly, Jon doesn't care about Jon on the throne lol.

Arya, no to the god of death, but also the whole eyes line is generic. Cersei has green eyes. Could be about her. The knife drop could have played on the Mountain as well. Or really anyone, Maisie is like 5'1 or something.

Where as the show went through some pretty good lengths to play up the "Prince Who Was Promised Shall Bring The Dawn" angle and then just abandoned it. Arya doesn't fit the prophecy at all.

But before I go any further, this is getting off topic and I don't want to go that far. I had no expectations really for the episode other than conclusions of storylines because it's ending. I don't feel like anyone outside of Jorah, Beric and Theon got an ending.

If this was it for that whole side of the show and they want it to be about the throne in the end, every episode here should have just happened in 7 to me. It just seems like a narrative mess right now.

 

Interesting. After Endgame my view of IW was solidified. IW was fun series if action set pieces, but no consequences because I knew moments after the dusting that everyone dusted would be brought back. Now I loved Endgame, but likely unlike many it was the 1st 2/3 of the movie that made it for me. Not the battle at the end. That was a series of fan service pieces and incredible amount of plot armor. Still I now put Endgame with Avengers 1 then Ultron then IW.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2019 ---

Just an FYI at least part of the day yesterday Arya is a Mary Sue was #2 trending on twitter.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2019 ---

Spoiler

"Prince who was promised" was translation. The original language is not gender specific. They even brought that up on the show. Think it was last year, could have been the previous year.

 

Spoiler

Arya was neither a prince nor princess. she fit nothing of the prophecy is the issue.

 

Spoiler

You are taking the prophecy very literal. First male and now must be a princess. It is even said in GOT that prophecies can be hard to decipher. Still it could still be Jon, or Dany that is the Prince who was promised. Also in some societies with a monarch since Jon is the King in the North she would be a princess. Some would say she would only be princess if her father was King.

 

Intresting indeed. Just taste and perceptions.... I guess. But about IW finale, let me just add this: I did expected that too, coming into EG.
But the moment I saw those IW scenes in theater... whau. That's something I never experienced I guess. Not even with the Red Wedding,
because unfortunately I knew about it.
And maybe, that lowered my interest for EG. Just because I knew what was coming.

Well... then people are totally idiots.

That said.. I just heard I guy that totally got me

Spoiler

about that Arya moment. He's an italian youtuber so I won't share the video, because it would be pointless I think.
But he made a faboulus case about the choice of Arya.
Among other things, he spoke about one aspect that I didn't considered - or heard - before: basically he said, not only Arya was trained
by the FM, but FM worship the Many Faces God, whose name is death. And... the intersting thing is that, if one pays attention
all the main deities played a part in that moment: the Hound was saved by some worshippers of the Seven God and after their death he joined Berich & comp., and he Berich - who was saved by the lord of the light- saved Arya during the long night; the old gods gave Bran his power, and Ban gave
the dagger to Arya maybe because he saw thanx to his power the future, Theon a worshipper of the Dwoned God was "re-born" into the water - season 7 finale - and came back as a fighter, so that he was capable if not killing the NK at least to gain the finale fatal few seconds that Arya used to
show up in the right moment...
In short all the Gods (many gods) vs death.
And then he speculated (and that's something I agree with... but I guess we should have to wait and see, that it's not
that Bran went nowhere. That is why I said before "if things stay like that". But I guess I am going far too off topic

 

This is why prophecies, including in SW, are usually silly plot devices for clever twists or else they should either never be mentioned. Who's the Chosen One? I couldn't care less. Harry Potter had a couple of prophecies, but they were usually completely subverted or completed without letting them extend for several books/movies, inviting 'expectation' and obsession. See SW, also see GoT.

 

Spoiler

I'm open to it not being a prince and willing to accept it being a princess yet you are saying I'm taking it literal? Huh?
Hard to decipher. Not meaningless poop words.
The long night is over. It was a red herring.

Unless they bring it back, it's kind of silly.

 

Spoiler

Wasnt your first part the fact that she wasnt male so she couldnt be a prince? Then 2nd that she isnt a princess? Sorry if I misunderstood. Also I dont recall that the Prince who was promised was specific to killing the Night King. If I recall correctly the prophecy came from another area of the world and when Melisandre was 1st introduced and her belief that it was Stannis she had no idea about the White Walkers.

 

I’m not personally a big MCU fan. I catch them when they come to streaming. They’re fine movies that I’m only passively interested in. I don’t care if I get spoiled, so I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of detailed reviews about ‘End Game’. I’m now aware of just about everything that happens in it.

One of the aspects I keep hearing/reading over and over is how unexpected a lot of the material is. That things hadn’t played out the way many viewers had anticipated. That their private in-head theories hadn’t panned out. Events didn’t play the way they thought they would or should. And that this was overall a far-and-away positive thing.

This got me to think about this thread and the reception of TLJ’s ‘subversive’ nature. Granted, a lot of film reviewers were also very glowing about that element when it came out. So, I was curious what fans (not critics) had to say about a comparably large property that was also, in its way, ‘subversive’. Specifically Star Wars fans. Did you appreciate it? Did you reject it? Did you not care at all?

I ask because my position on this topic is: the notable dissatisfaction within the fandom wasn’t THAT TLJ subverted expectations, but HOW it did it. Audiences don’t really want what’s in their heads put up on screen. They want what they didn’t even know they wanted. The UNexpected. It’s all about delivery - execution. Not checking boxes.

But I could be dead wrong here. Maybe I’m way off base. Just wanted to get a read of the room

 

I honestly think it's a term that sounds smart so people use it as a shortcut to their own commentary. As an attorney, it's frustrating that things like that are just used in general commentary when they're not correctly defined (like Mary Sue).

Endgame's general plot was not at all unexpected if people want to be honest with themselves. Honestly, everybody had kind of figured out what they would do, but there are details that were surprising, and the execution of multiple character arcs was surprising, but mostly in a "how did they fit all that in" way (of course half the new characters weren't there and the old ones already had interesting directions and arcs...if I was to dare critique).

TLJ deconstructs a lot of people's definitions of "what SW is", which is way more laden with baggage than Endgame. Everything from 'what the Jedi are', 'what is balance', 'what are Sith', etc. Some people genuinely enjoyed Luke's zen on that stuff, other didn't want to accept it - which is why they too often quote the villain's 'burn it" line because that's what they felt, but ignoring which character said it and why. They're still searching for an Emperor figure, so when Snoke dies, it's this big 'problem' or 'waste', but ignoring that Kylo is now the big boss, and that's a cool 'twist'. I don't know if that's necessarily some 'subversion'.

Some just differ on what SW is after 40 years and two different trilogies. You could say the PT 'subverted' expectations too, with similar reactions from the 'fans'. The same thing happened with the prequels: "Why are the Jedi so dumb and boring?" "Why is Anakin whiny? Isn't he a great and powerful warrior?" Prior to 1999, people thought the Jedi were cool ronin-like sages who got taken out en masse by Darth Vader, but really they were kind of stupid and got into a war that killed many of them even before Order 66. People thought Anakin would be the more like the Clone Wars Anakin (which is why a lot of fans would say that CW 'redeemed' the prequels). But he's an emo kid that searched for maternal validation in multiple characters.

SW fans still ask: "When do we get a Vader film?", LMAO. That's how static people's interpretations of SW are. Vader killing Jedi. That's about it. And SW has never really opened that up to other stuff like the MCU did with vast amounts of characters. So there are multiple threads about who and where the Sith are? What is a Jedi and what isn't a Jedi (as if there haven't been tons of other Force-using groups in canon for over a decade). So I don't know if TLJ subverted a lot, it just tried to introduce something beyond the Emperor and Vader, Sith, Jedi, etc, which apparently is not-canon-worthy for some fans.

Heck, TLJ still had a young, already proven talented person being guided by an older legendary 'warrior', rebelling against the advice of that mentor and leaving in a vain naive effort to save the day, not being able to defeat the dark master, and having to escape with his/her friends.....it's literally Empire Strikes Back without much change. Rey doesn't necessarily get defeated by Kylo like Luke did. Kylo instead does something crazy, and gets played by Luke in an amazing, truly legendary way. The hero's friends save themselves via Holdo (a cool cinematic moment that is 'subversion of the physics of hyperspace in the SW galaxyyyyyyyyyyyy). It wasn't any darker than ESB or AOTC...is that 'subversion' of.....something?? Even though a lot of the bones of it still respected the 'poetry' of SW.

So the OP regarding expectations, really rings true only in that: "How strict are you in your 'requirements' of a SW film?" If Anakin doesn't show up in RoS, people will hate it. If Palpatine anymore or less than a ghost, then a lot of people will hate it too. If the Sith aren't there, people already reject it, lol. Not that those small things in such a big universe have anything to do with the structure, or performance, or editing, of the film at all, lol. It gets kind of silly at a certain point.

 

Spoiler

No, it was that she doesn't fit any aspect of it in anyway without doing major cartwheels. The prince is supposed to bring the dawn and use lightbringer to end the darkness.

 

Spoiler

Not me. Speaking as someone who didn't like TLJ, I enjoyed the most recent episode of GoT. I have no problem with Arya being the one who struck the killing blow on the Night King. Arya is not a Mary Sue like Rey is. We have seen Arya develop. She didn't just pop up in season 1 as the best fighter and best pilot like Rey did in E7. She gets her butt whupped on more than 1 occasion for the first 6 years.

My biggest complaint of the whole thing was that we've pretty much seen Samwell studying for 7 years about how to beat the Night Walkers and he ends up contributing virtually nothing. They discovered the dragon glass by accident. I think the only thing Sam discovered in all those years of reading was "hey there is more of this stuff on Dragonstone."

So much is made these days about having strong women in fantasy stories. Game of Thrones shows the right way to do it. Star Wars, not so much.

 

Spoiler

Which could mean what Arya did. Or what Jon or Dany are yet to do. The darkness could be literal the long night, the winter or it could be figurative aka the poor horrible governing that has gone on for a very long time. We just dont know.

 

Spoiler

Yes it could but it also makes Jon a wasted character arc and god awful story telling to set things up and never pay them off. Chekov's Gun. But the lord of light wouldn't care about that. He never has before. That's issue. It creates more questions than answers and for the last season that is bad.

 

Ding ding ding!!

 

Spoiler

I had no problem within the context of the episode of them having Arya killing the NK. As you said, she is not a Mary Sue. Not even close. I even think there is a chance that the Faceless Men will have some sort of role to play by the time the books come to an end. In book 1, Jaquen is in jail in Kings Landing and taken to be part of the Nights Watch. Why? What was a faceless man doing in jail? I doubt these guys are very easy to capture, so I think he WANTED to be there. He thus wanted to go north. Again, why? Later he apparently changes tactics/course, and instead he turns up in Old Town, where he kills an initiate and takes his identity. What is he looking for? Lore about the Others?

The problem I have with that is the fact that B&W built up the NK vs Jon rivalry, only to "subvert" our expectations. All in all the episode is good. I would have killed off Jorah earlier, to help promote the idea that all of the characters are in trouble, but otherwise it was okay (besides being too darn dark). But seriously, why build up Jon vs NK and then not have it pay off? Why build up Daenerys as finally getting pregnant and then not have it pay off? This feels like cheap "subversion" just to try and be edgy. Martin might do some of this as well, but I'm sure the contextualization will be there.

My problems are with episodes 4 and 5. 4 is a bloody disaster. It shows they can't finish this satisfactorily in the time they've given themselves to finish it. We have the Littlefinger teleportation machine back, and now it transports armies (armies that appeared shattered are suddenly not as shattered as we thought). The rushing of the story means we get "mad queen" Daenerys with little build up/contextualization. We get the destruction of Jaimie's character arc. We get the continued use of Euron as a "deus ex machina" type figure to introduce cheap drama and tension because the writers suck and stupidly decided to end the show after 8 seasons (and do do fewer episodes/season when HBO was MORE than willing to foot the bill).

Sorry for the rant, but I loved the show at one point. I was still high on it until 8.3 and then 8.4 knocked me off the bandwagon completely.