What does Kylo know about Vader?

I'm wondering if this is how it happened:

Perhaps Snoke approached Ben at Luke's new Jedi Academy and noticed he was unhappy, maybe not feeling very special, and he began to lure him to the Dark Side with the eventual revelation that the man who was once Darth Vader was actually his grandfather.

Imagine a young wide-eyed Ben suddenly realizing he is the grandson of one of the baddest Sith of the era. Suddenly Ben would want to know more, and Snoke would promise to tell him everything (from his "certain point of view") if only Ben pledged himself to Snoke's teachings.

Ben, possibly unhappy with Luke, did just that. And perhaps eventually Ben confronted Leia and Han on this matter, and Leia explained she wanted to tell Ben some day, but his father (Han) disapproved.

This, besides that Han, in Ben's eyes, would be "just a smuggler" just as Ben/Kylo asked Rey if she was really just a scavenger. Ben would have lost all respect for Han. Han and Leia might have argued over this, and this could have been the major contribution to their apparent parting before The Force Awakens.

Leia then tries to have Luke tell Ben what happened. Against his will, Ben goes to Luke, listens, but then Luke gets to the point that he (Luke) conquered Vader and brought him back to the Light side of the Force.

Ben, not at all liking this, could then have gone to Snoke, asked him if it was true, and then Snoke would go on about Vader's "sentiment," how that was his one fault, and yet, except for that, Ben should try to follow his grandfather's footsteps and become even more powerful.

Ben buys into that brainwashing completely, resents Luke, sheds his identity, and becomes Kylo Ren.

Truly, I think Ben sees, thanks to both brainwashing and his tendency toward confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) only a shattered portrait of Vader, one missing key pieces.

As Kylo Ren, he is impelled, by his need to feel powerful and Snoke's own agenda to make Ben feel special (while he uses him, as Han cautioned, for another agenda), to fixate on what he felt (through Snoke) was Vader's strength in the Dark Side.

Meanwhile, Luke could have eventually learned about Anakin through either Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, or Anakin himself as Force spirits after Return of the Jedi.

JediMasterRobert

 

i'm loathe to speculate too much about what Kylo Ren actually knows or thinks about his grandfather. i feel like we are missing critical pieces of information.

i will say, however, that no matter what Snoke has put into Ren's head, i have a strong feeling he actually has a mind of his own on the subject (could be the only thing he has a mind of his own about up until he meets Rey).

Ren's relationship with Vader feels curiously like a place Ren goes to actually get away from Snoke. Vader is his only confidant.

 

Ok....What did Kylo know about Vader???That really is a GOOD question.In this thread everybody will tell his own and personal theory.This is my story.Well....I think that Ben Solo has a REALLY bad childhood with a hard time across his life.It look that Leia and Han are like divorced.They are NOT together no more.Did you remember when Han tell Finn that women know ALWAYS the true.I think that Han has a lover.He was cheating.Leia KNOW it and Kylo grow up with his parents ALWAYS having fights.Kylo start feeling bad about this and start being a rebel kid with this situation.He start doing bad things and then the BAD side of the FORCE show up on him.Leia notice that Ben has the FORCE gift in him.She tell it to Han.Han was not living with Leia so he show up and talk to Ben.Leia and Han decide to take Ben to Luke to try to FIX him on time.Han take Ben to Luke.Luke was starting the Jedi academy and Ben was receive to be part of it.In the academy in some way Snoke show up in front of him.Ben was in shock.Snoke tell him EVERYTHING about Vader.Then Snoke seduce Ben telling him that he will teach him to be MORE POWERFUL than Darth Vader.Ben decide and accept Snoke offer.Ben turn to the dark side and he is NOW Kylo Ren.This is my story.I hope you like it....

 

The Jedi Archives are still downloaded on R2. You know how R2 is. He downloads anything with a computer in site. And he was a trusted droid, even Anakins favorite. His sneaky behind has been plugged in at the Jedi Fortress more than once I bet to help out or find something. If not asked directly to download the archives, once plugged in you know what he will do just by knowing him. He'll download anything his hard drive can handle and give you only the piece you asked for, haha.

It took some doing, but eventually R2 gave Luke all the info, or at least most of it.

If Luke knows of the past events that could be one way.

Luke is always pissing around wishing he knew more about his father after ROTJ. OB1 can't be trusted for the truth. Finally R2 speaks up feeling sorry for the lad.

LUKE: You mean to tell me you have the Jedi Archives downloaded!!!???

R2: ba beep beep twoop beep.

LOL. Hey you never know

 

If you are asking if Ren knows of Vader's redemption, then yes. In the novel, which is canon, there is a scene were Snoke and Ren are talking about Vader, and how his only moment of weakness in an otherwise great legacy, was not killing the son who eventually seduced him back to the light.

 

My theory is that somehow Obi-Wan entered that into his journals but in such a way that keeps Anakin and Vader as two separate entities. So Luke would probably find out about his father fighting in the Clone Wars, and the backstory about how Qui-Gon found Anakin on Tatooine and that he won the Boonta podrace - only human ever to achieve that - and then he went to the Jedi Academy. He might even have found something about his mother - Padme - and just something mentioned about her dying in childbirth. Just speculating here, but that is how it could have happened.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2016 ---

My guess is that it depends a lot on how Leia took on Vader being her father. From the Legends we knew that:

- Force-Ghost Anakin appears to Leia and she rejects him. (Truce at Bakura)
- After marrying Han, she goes to Tatooine and learns more about her father origins, like the Boonta podrace and actually finds Shmi's journal, where she learns about her father as the young slave who was totally the opposite of the cruel and merciless Darth Vader. So this helps her to come to terms with her heritage. (Tatooine Ghost)

BUT this being no longer applicable, I really really wonder how they are going to follow up on this topic, since I suspect it will have a lot to do on how Ben gets manipulated by Snoke to be like his grandfather. My guess is that Leia either doesn't come to terms with it, or acts like she does but chooses to keep the past in the past. And since they didn't wait too long to have family after Endor - lol - then her and Han decide to raise Ben without the "mumbo-jumbo" Jedi stuff until Leia perceives he needs it, due to the Snoke's influence. And that's when they send Ben to train with Luke.

Having said that, I don't think Ben receives a lot of information about Anakin from Leia, maybe uncle Luke would tell him as much as he knows but Snoke is the one who twists the truth to his convenience.

 

I think Snoke's wording ("sentiment") lets us know that Snoke did not portray the event objectively to Kylo Ren.

Above all, Snoke would not want Kylo Ren to think in terms of redemption, and so denounced Vader's decision as sentimental.

So Kylo Ren might know what Vader did in the end, but very much biased by Snoke's "certain point of view."

JediMasterRobert

 

Great post my friend. I too wonder where Kylo Ren's obsession with Vader might come from and wonder what it might be based on. It makes no sense that he would care for the things Anakin did as he would then have stayed in the light so what motivates Kylo? Did he figure that Vader was a dude that was evil and powerful and he only based his choice on that? I have argued on other posts that maybe it was a mistake to have Kylo want to be like Vader because at the end we might get some lame reason that will really ruin the character. Kylo had everything that Anakin didn't have and while there were many things that pushed Anakin to do what he did, Kylo has no reason whatsoever.

Anakin had his own issues and it was because of this that Palpatine swayed him to the Dark. There was already darkness inside Anakin and all that Sheev had to do was nurture it but what could happen to Ben if he had it all? He had a family that loved him, he didn't loose anyone dear to him, he didn't have the nasty life of a slave and he wasn't even born in a really bad time like Anakin was. What merits Ben wanting to be an evil heartless killer? Anakin had seen the flaws of the Jedi Order and he had good reasons to think the way he did but Ben was in a order that was just being started by Luke so there isn't a good reason why he would want the Jedi Order to disappear.

I really hope that Disney comes up with a good enough reason for Ben's way of thinking as it's going to be incredibly lame if he was motivated by a stupid reason just like having Luke have preference for another student or because a fellow Jedi stole Ben's twinkie. It's really REALLY going to suck if we lost Han to a crybaby dork that had no other reason for doing what he did other than the though that Luke or his family didn't pay him much attention.

 

whatever Kylo Ren knows about Vader, it's been revised by Snoke. his "obsession" with his grandfather is predicated on a sense of destiny--it would appear that Snoke has convinced Ren that he's to follow in his grandpa's footsteps (footsteps which Snoke has carefully crafted to fit his own agenda).

we don't know how much Ren has pulled from the archives of the Empire and how skewed those records might be as well. we don't know if Luke tried to tell him differently. we don't know whether Leia explained anything or if he ever even heard it from her (if her message ever reached him). we do know that the New Republic's history of Vader is only that he was a monster, the face of evil (no redemption, no Anakin).

clearly the Dark was already at work in Ben before Leia sent him to Luke (though we don't know when that happened either). we don't know if Ben was already unstable (or for how long he might have been).

Ren's desire to end the Jedi seems to be coming from Snoke and it appears to be political in nature (though it's personal too because it's his uncle by whom he feels betrayed). we don't know if Ren is a heartless killer. he's capable of killing, for certain, but his heart hardly seems in it (maybe a bit with Finn--that's the only time we see him enjoying being vicious).

while Ben was not a slave, nor suffered Anakin's particular slights, he clearly grew up disturbed and unhappy and the fact that Leia potentially fobbed him off on Luke and then the whole family withheld his heritage from him probably didn't help matters. add to that an evil presence that may have already been influencing him and it's a cocktail for disaster.

ultimately, he's not following Vader because Vader was "evil and powerful". he's following Vader because he believes in a Centrist ideology and Snoke has likely convinced him that he's destined to have a central role in the formation of such throughout the galaxy.

in a way, he's doing what he's doing for the same reason kids join street gangs--he felt like an outsider growing up and Snoke has given him a place of belonging where he feels like his life makes sense and will have purpose.

 

Those are some good points my friend and I would indeed like it if they came out to be true. Having Snoke twist Kylo's perceptions of things would be way better than just having lame old Kylo wanting to be a bad guy just for the fun of it. I guess we all will just have to wait and see if Disney does the story right by giving us a good reason and not just leaving it as a blind Vader obsession.

 

well i don't know if you have read the book or not, but it's pretty much stated outright that Snoke has colored/warped Ren's perceptions and that Ren doesn't seem to understand what Vader's final moments were really "about".

but i agree: we have to see how things play out. there always could be more to the story than what we know right now. clearly there's still a ton of stuff we don't know.

 

These are questions I at least could be addressed in the books. Like, wouldn't Luke most definitely go investigate the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and finding out more about his father and Obi-Wan, etc.. That would at least make a great book!