SPECULATION What if snoke is a new character (not plagueis)

My guess is that he is and we'll learn more about him in next movies.

I mean if he is Plagueis, nobody will never beat him or kill him so where's the point ?

 

I really like the Plagueis theory. It would perfectly tie together all three trilogies.

If Snoke turns out to be a new character with no relations to the OT/PT, many fans will be disappointed.

But not me, you know why? Because of Rian Johnson.
He is responsible for the story of EP8 (and 9) and he is known for writing great and original stories.
So Snoke's origins will be something we've never seen in the movies or the EU.

 

One can reffer to "Its on Dantooine" thread. my alternative Case for Snoke.

https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/its-on-dantooine.9444/

 

My thoughts are that Snoke is indeed a new character and he is not Darth Plagueis or any other character we have seen so far. Let's take a look at what Disney is doing so far so that we can see what is my argument to back this up. When TFA came out, many fans were expecting a return to the wonderful worlds that George Lucas had created. Many of us were surprised that instead of seeing all the tipical ships and aliens that we were used to seeing in SW, Disney did no such thing and they gave us something totally different. Gone were all the Rodians, Nikto's and Twi'Leks that we were used to seeing as well as all the A-Wings, B-Wings, Y-Wings and Tie Interceptors that many of us expected to see and these were replaced by Disney's new creatures and ships. The only familiar aliens we saw were Chewie, Ackbar and Niem Numb and these because they were story characters and not just aliens we see in the background and the ships we saw were the Falcon, Star Destroyers, X-Wings and Tie Fighters yet these are also iconic ships that can be considered as characters in their own right. Even the use of the Force was altered in ways that were never seen in the previous six movies. Disney not only did that but it eliminated all the EU as well and has been creating it's own continuty. When we look at this we can see that though Disney bought the property we all love and many of us grew up with, it is clearly dumping many things that were done by Lucas in favor of molding SW into their own version. Aliens made up a large part of SW but after seeing TFA and now the new Rogue One trailer, we can perfectly see that this is not the case anymore and that Disney is running things their way. Now, let's take a look at Snoke. If Disney is making SW into it's own image and getting rid of many things Lucas, why would they make their main villain turn out to be someone that Lucas created? Worst yet, a character from a trilogy that many people say they hate and would even be perfectly fine if it was rebooted? That really makes no sense at all and I really think that instead of Snoke being Plagueis who would now be integrated to the new SW Disney movies, I think Snoke will be just a new Disney character that they will integrate to the old SW universe. With RO they can perfectly fit Snoke into the mythos without having to turn their cool new character into something created by Lucas who we all know has not been having a very nice relationship with Disney these days.

 

I believe Pablo Hidalgo has clearly confirmed Snoke is new character. However there is risk they could screw it if they think it can be easy. Snoke must be elaborate, must be strong, and serrious. His name Snoke is already silently a subject of jokes so whoever Snoke is I hope they took it serriously.

I hope Snoke is not some lesser character (like former admiral , dark side pupil etc.) as those kind of characters are to weak for the Star wars main villain. He must be ultimately strong, and since he is ancient I hope they thought of some Alien (he is alien, confirmed) Dark side wielder from some extinct higher race .

They re- introduced planet Rakata Prime into a new canon, and that planet (illum system) is linked to extinct Advanced civilization that millenia ago has built weapon that was draining its power from the nearby stars.....for those who like to think think ..we may have a clue.

 

People love narrative. They love mysteries. They love it when things tie together and make sense.
Plagueis offers that. He provides a concise and satisfactory solution to continuing the saga.
A new villain, dumped into the final part of a 9 film saga, will be absurd.

"Oh hi, I'm Snoke. I've been around all along but have shown up now so Disney can make more Star Wars films"

VS

"Hi, I'm Snoke. Formerly Plagueis - creator of the Skywalker family, master of The Emperor and cheater of death. I'm here to finish what I started".

If Snoke is a new character then I won't view this as a continuation of the saga but a fan film that is largely a rehash of the OT.

 

I'm quite sure there is a big villain behind Snoke.

 

I have to disagree. Having Snoke be a totally new villain does nothing to tarnish the saga if it is done correctly. Grand Admiral Thrawn was an awesome character and he came out of the blue. All Timothy Zahn had to do was give fans a few lines of backstory of his relationship with Palpatine and there we had an instant cool and interesting villain who had been around for a very long time without anybody knowing. The same can be said about about Prince Xizor and the Black Sun. Never before had we heard of a criminal empire that could even rival the Hutts and yet Steve Perry did an excelent job of creating this in Shadows of the Empire. Black Sun came out of the blue just like Xizor but now they are greatly known by most SW fans. In just one novel Perry created a main villain that not only had a good relationship with Sheev but a rivalry with Vader as well. If it is well done, we don't even have to see Snoke in person in RO to make him work. Just having Palpatine open up a holocron and seeing Snoke or having an old Sith Lord from the holocron like Darth Bane mention him would be enough for fans to cement Snoke into the SW mythos. It was the very same thing that was done with Plaguies. Five movies came along and we knew nothing about a so called Darth Plaguies and out of the blue in movie number six they let us know that Sheev had a wise master that could cheat death. Such a tiny scene and just a simple mention and Plaguies has all the backstory and fans that he has today so if this was the case with him, imagine how well Snoke can be integrated if he were seen or mentioned in some way in a prequel SW movie.

 

But a new villain would be added retroactively. Plagueis is already there. That's the difference. The important thing here is having a satisfactory continuation of the saga that doesn't feel contrived. Suddenly bringing in new villains that have apparently been behind the scene all along is very contrived. What's more, we aren't dealing with ordinary villains here, but a Dark Side Force user of the highest magnitude. There is no way of explaining this person just existing without a backstory that doesn't conflict with the events of the saga so far - only Plagueis fits in. Plagueis explains where Snoke discovered his Dark Side knowledge. Plagueis explains what Snoke has been up to over the past decades. Plagueis explains why he is vulnerable, deformed and only emerged after Sidious' demise. Plagueis explains a reason why he connects into the story of Darth Vader - which is what the saga is all about.

Retroactively mentioning Snoke now will be so obviously contrived. With Plagueis, it feels like he has been planned all along - or at least during the making of the PT. We know that he could've created Anakin. We know he trained Palpatine. And we know that he was mastering death. It's the perfect set up for the villain who has been behind the scenes. What's more, that's all we knew. So his personality, appearance and traits can be whatever Disney want them to be. Throwing in a new villain with no connection to prior films and no clear link to the Skywalker's will for the majority of fans be hugely unsatisfying.

 

He is officially a new hat acted although he has a history within the galaxy and has direct knowledge of all that we know according to the official canon .

 

You have to realize though that you are looking at things from a point of view that is not necessarily chared by all fans my friend. I understand your point of view but you have to remember one thing. There are two types of SW fans and Disney knows this. One type of fan is the pasive fans and another is the hardcore fans those of which you and I are a part of. We know everything you have mentioned about Plagueis and many hardcore fans would like to see this but do you really think that pasive SW fans, those who love the movies but know nothing about EU or anything non movie even remember the name Plagueis? For those fans it's just easy to accept a new evil dude that has nothing to do with prior movies since they know nothing EU. For us diehard fans, Plagueis is sombody important who is worth exploring and who we would just love to know more about but to the pasive fans, he is just a dead dude that Palpatine mentioned and that's asuming that they even remember that conversation. Hardcore SW fans eat, breath and live SW and we just have to know more. We dive into the EU and learn all that we can but the problem with this is that we sometimes expect to see many things because we understand much more of the backstory than fans who just like the movies but this saddly doesn't change the fact that those who make the movies think more of the pasive SW fans than of us hardcore ones.
Let's look at TFA for example. How many hardcore fans expected to see Boba Fett? How many of them expected to see Jacen, Jaina or Mara Jade? How many of us expected to see Luke as an awesome Jedi master and not a washed up guy who failed and hid himself from the galaxy? Didn't we expect to see a great New Republic where the good guys finally had the upper hand instead of seeing our childhood heroes dumped in the very same role of running and hiding that they were in the previous three movies? Did we get any of this? We got nothing of this. And why was that? Because Disney aims to please a mayor audience and it saddly doesn't concern itself with seeing our version of what we think ties the saga together. When I say this, don't think that I disagree with your point of views about Plagueis, heck, everything you say regarding him is perfectly logical and acceptable to me cause I know who Darth Plagueis is. For me it would be awesome to see this done and he would indeed tie things together nicely but I have already gotten used to seeing how little they deliver for us hardcore fans.
For me, seeing lots of familiar ships and aliens from previous movies, seeing a struggling Empire and not a brand new army that just popped out of nowhere, seeing the rise of the new Jedi and seeing Han and Leia's marrige work out would have conected TFA nicley with the past saga but as we all saw, this was not the case. This was unsatisfying for me and many hardcore fans but Disney and a vast mayority of pasive fans did not see it that way. Where I saw a movie that was just a extreme copy/paste of ANH which delivered nothing new or worthwhile to the saga and just ruined many things I loved about SW, many others saw a wonderful SW movie that blew their mind.

 

While I can understand your view of Plaguies, I would have to disagree here. In all essence, Plaugeis would be a new villain just as much as anyone else. Plaguies has never been a villain in the Star Wars movies. He was just a Legend mentioned in 1 of 6 films who was killed. So, to the majority of the audience, he would be just as new as anyone else. I have to agree with @Amanaman , Star Wars is written for the masses, not just the die hard fans that live and breathe every aspect of Star Wars. The profit is in the masses and whether we like it or not, movies are made for profits, even Star Wars. They will produce something to make the masses clap, not something the narrow hardcore fans clap and the masses going "huh?"

To me, if he had been planned all along during the PT, I think there would have been more ground work, or more mentioning of him during the three movies except for one just scene. Which the purpose of said scene was to just bait and hook so when the time came, Anakin would be there in his time of need and cross that line.

 

I didn't say "was planned" but that he would look like he was. Plagueis was spoken of in a way that would suggest he could've created Anakin and we know he trained Palpatine and had a power over death. That's what sets him apart. And it's not about satisfying the hard core fans - the reveal isn't "Oh it's Plagueis! That guy mention in ROTS!". It's "Wow, Snoke used to be a Sith, created Vader and trained Palpatine!". No one else can provide such as strong, interesting and relevant connection without being utterly contrived.

 

Only from a certain point of view, for many there are other options which are not deemed contrived. I am truly sorry that this saga will suck for some just because Snoke isn't Plaguies and doesn't follow what has been deemed as the perfect connection to truly continue the story. They are limiting and narrowing their chance for a good experience before even seeing it. Ultimately there is no way anyone can make a Star Wars movie that pleases every fan derived theory concocted over 30 years for the perfect movie. They just have to come up with their own ideas based on what they feel will make a the best movie for the majority.

Isn't that still equal to "Oh, It's Plagueis! That guy mentioned in ROTS!" I still don't understand what would be the purpose of Plaguies renouncing the Sith? Darth Bane didn't agree with the Sith of his time. He didn't renounce it because he didn't agree with the way it was ruled. He remade it according to his own plan in a drastic and powerful way but was still a Sith. Thus changing it to a rule of Two to overcome the pitfalls of the old way. Being he was the master (and now the last Sith), Plaguies would have no need to renounce being a Sith. The great and powerful Plagueis could just redesign it into what he considered the perfect order (whether abandoning the rule of two or whatever) and still be a Sith. No reason to drop it.

In my opinion, it's just trying to rework it so Snoke could be still Plagueis since JJ verified there were NO Sith in this movie. I feel this is probably part of the reason Pablo basically said it wouldn't matter if he said "Snoke is not Plagueis" because it would still be reworked to make Snoke into Plaguies and he is lying, regardless. Let's take the fact that supposedly the TFA should have debunked the Plaguies Theory because Snoke wasn't a Munn. So, rework that because Plaguies was only mentioned to be a Munn in the now Legends book. Plaguies could be any species now by fan theory. But the same argument that was used before the release of the TFA that "Lucas himself said he could be a Munn" can still be used now. If Lucas himself defined the species of Sidious' master, Darth Plaguies, might that fact still be canon even if the events of the book are not. Thus debunking the theory after the TFA was released. Would Disney really worry changing it or would they just come up with their own original person in Snoke? I think the latter, Just my opinion tho....

 

It is what it is. I didn't particularly enjoy TFA so I don't have all that high an expectation for the rest of the ST. If Snoke is just some dropped in villain it can't really do that much more damage to my experience. I will just look at Star Wars as Lucas' 1-6 films and anything beyond that as EU.

Definitely not. The name Plagueis will mean very little to the vast majority. However, anyone with a half a midichlorian could see the significance of Snoke being the creator of Darth Vader, the master of Palpatine and as someone who has cheated death. They are big connecting issues that add depth and relevance to the character.

Darth Maul is now Maul. He is no longer a Sith. He despises the Sith. And he wants to destroy the Sith.
I envisage Plagueis being the same and having the same feelings.
But more specifically, I think Plagueis would see that the "nature of the Sith" was its own worst enemy and for someone to really succeed in ruling the Order of the Dark Side (along with the galaxy) forever, then they would have to create a new philosophy. What I mean by that is that all the Sith masters and their apprentices sought to kill each other. Plagueis survived (maybe) but he might not have. I'd imagine that Plagueis would want to create a new order that has a new philosophy based on worship and loyalty. One where the followers would see the master as a Messiah and be loyal to the cause rather than their own power.
Now for Plagueis to pull this off, he can't call this order "The Sith". It will giveaway his deception and who would view an order that has been destroyed by their enemies as "the one true religion" (if you get my meaning?).

And what if Snoke is Snoke and Snoke is some new guy not associated with the Sith in any way? Then you have the contradictory issue of why him and his Dark Side faction hasn't ever been heard of or ever made a power play. You have to wonder where he found all this Dark Side knowledge when the films explicitly show that the Sith and Jedi monopolised such knowledge. They were never challenged by anyone other than each other.

I just find the idea that there just happens to be some guy found in the unknown regions (eyes rolling) that is extremely knowledgeable about the Dark Side, who has the exact same kind of plan as the Sith had and who emerges just as the last Sith is killed, is so unbelievably contrived. It's such an obvious way of trying to make more SW films for the money rather than the good of the mythology.

Lucas may have said Plagueis was a Muun. But he also said Maul was dead and a number of other things that have been "altered".

 

I wish you wouldn't limit your view of what it has to be. If you aren't giving it a far, unbiased viewing; you will undoubtedly be disappointed regardless because every fan isn't being polled to see what they think needs to be in the movies to make them perfect. I feel with some, this really has more about Lucas not writing and directing than anything else. The fact is, he sold it.

And they are written for the vast majority. Plaguies creating Anakin was only alluded to, left to interpretation and never clarified to the vast majority in one movie, while earlier in the saga it was explicitly stated he was born of the force, special and therefore could be the chosen one. The link to that for the die hard fans are those of us who have read the EU novel, the vast majority has not. The vast majority who hasn't read the novel only knows Plaguies could save others from dying except himself. The vast majority knows Palpatine lied to Anaking 3 times about the power to cheat death. The bait--First lie, In the opera house scene telling him the ironic story of Darth Plaguies The Wise. How he taught his apprentice everything he knew and was killed in his sleep. He could save others from dying except himself. The Hook-- Second lie, during the fight with Mace Windu, he pleads with Anakin to help him, he is the only one that can help him save the one he loves, Padme. Reeling in the catch--Third lie, after Anakins acts, he asks that Sidious help save Padme. Sidious replies with cheating death is a power only one has achieved, but together they could learn it. Which is contradictory with with his first two statements. So to the vast majority, Sidious is just being the master manipulator that he is and it was all a ruse to bait and hook Anakin. The fact he said cheating death is a power only one has achieved just refers back to Plaguies being able to save others from dying but himself. If not then Darth Sidious isn't the sith lord and master. Sometimes I think we need to take a step back and look at the through the eyes of the "vast majority" and not through our eyes as a die hard fan that has read everything. IMO.

The sith still existed though. Darth Maul was never the Master, just the apprentice. In order to make the sith into what he thought was best, he would have to remove Sidious and Vader in order to do so. His only option was to "not be sith" and destroy those who were. Obviously that never happened. Plaguies on the other hand, was the Master at the time of his Sith. He could have reordered according to his own doctrine just as Bane did. It would have even been easier for him. Once he killed his own master, he would have been the lone sith lord to do whatever he pleased and taught his apprentice/s in his new view.

As I said above, why the need to drop the sith mantle. He could remake it into whatever he wanted. If feel the craving of power and to be on top isn't just a sith thing, it is just part of the darkside. Dropping the title of sith isn't going to change anything in that regard.

While the PT and OT only show the Sith and Jedi using the force, it doesn't transcend them being the only ones. The Jedi and Sith just set out to find the force sensitives to train them according to their religion but that wouldn't mean there aren't other religion. I think in some ways this was selfish of the jedi as I feel the main purpose was to pull them in so they could guide them to reduce the chance of going to the dark side without the freedom of choice. Anakin unknowingly was using the force before he was found and probably Rey too. Any of the lost twenty may not be part of the Jedi order/code anymore but still know how to use their force powers and probably do. Same as dark jedi. Sith and Jedi are just codes to live by such real world counterparts like Knights during Medieval era. So far, TFA has already shown us Maz knows of the force (even used the force in a deleted scene) but isn't a Jedi. Snoke knows of the Darkside but isn't a sith.

Well, the last sith got shafted and his apprentice short circuited. But all we know is Plaguies was killed in his sleep. Anything beyond that is just fan theory and each has their own.

I consider that more fanservice than anything else provide in a cartoon. Lucas always considered the movies were above everything else and trumped anything below. Even with little dialogue, Maul turned about to be a Fan favorite. Fan service put him in TCW just as Boba Fett had little screen time in the OT but just turned out to be a favorite and intriguing character the fans. For Fan service he was put in ANH in the special editions and given backstory in the PT.

 

It's about doing right by the mythology, not Disney's bank account.

You're missing the point. Of course it was alluded to but it provides a an opportunity for continuing the story. It wasn't designed this way from the start (probably) but wit Plagueis' roots being set in ROTS, it can provide a means of bringing in a villain with direct links to Vader's origins etc.

Again, it's about what can happen without contradicting the saga and not appearing contrived. It's not about needing to know about Plagueis but just being told that Snoke created Anakin. That's a big thing. Then when people do look back they can see the connection made in ROTS.

Yet - it's confirmed that Plagueis DID save ones he loved from death, so he did have that power. We know he was Palpatine's master. Therefore, Palpatine wasn't lying about Plagueis being able to save others from death and may have even learned this himself (sure looks interesting the way he helps Vader in ROTS). But Palpatine didn't think Plagueis could save others from death.

But the point is Plagueis came to his conclusions about the Sith after his demise. It's then he realises what he should do. And the point with Maul is to show how and why one would wish to distance themselves from the Sith - and Plagueis has even more reason (as I stated).

1. The Sith name is tainted (defeated)
2. He ended up despising the order and feels he went beyond it
3. The philosophy, the titles etc no longer exist so why carry on using the Sith name?

No, but they're the greatest. They're above everyone else. They have no other rivals.

Right - but the lost 20 were once Jedi. They got their knowledge from the Jedi. That's what I am saying - to be a knowledgeable/powerful Force user, you need to have been a Jedi or Sith. Otherwise we have a rival faction in the galaxy that we have never heard of before - which makes no sense. And the argument being put forward is that Snoke wasn't a Sith. I don't buy that.

Everything beyond fact is fan theory. The Plagueis theory just happens to be the best around

Plagueis is the right move by the fans and for the story....

 

I'm sorry, but they are not documentaries. They are all about the profit. The mythology comes second. Lucas had an idea. Made his Star Wars not knowing it would be a hit. After it was, the rest of the films and tons of merchandising was about profit, if not, the money wouldn't be made and they wouldn't make them. Lucas knew what he was doing when he reduced his profit margin for merchandising rights. Those profits put him in the position to make what he wanted without answering to others. The study of and mythology comes after the films are made.

But is not the only opportunity to continue, especially about someone that was only mentioned once and to me, the facts of Anakin being born of the force and Plaguies being killed in his sleep beat the allusion 2-1. Changing that requires more from the movies that are about Vader's legacy. I think they will go another route and not worry about changing what has already been presented.

Doesn't having Plaguies contradict the saga just as much as anyone else? It was presented he was killed in his sleep in a very, very brief scene. Anakin being born of the force was a big part presented in TPM. Qui Gon found a convergence in the force, believing he was the chosen one, and wanting him trained. Having them be told Snoke/Plagues created Anakin would be a big thing. It would be a big "huh?" moment for majority. I don't feel they gonna make a movie where people will have to go make an make a connection to such a small scene.

Correct, the fact Sidious said he taught his apprentice all he knew was the lie.

I'm sorry, my premise was about what he could have easily done when alive based on prior events by others, not fan theory created in order to make Plaguies fit.

If he was alive, the Sith wasn't defeated. Once again, This seems to me to be fan theory created in order to MAKE Plaguies fit. He could have made it into whatever he wanted before or after Sidious. He was the master, the sith lord. I'm not saying this fan theory is impossible but it is not the only possibility that will work for it. But aslo , I haven't narrowed my view to only one possibility. Which I wish others wasn't. It just sets you up for disappointment.

I would say they are the most prominent but not the only ones. Mortis and the Nightsister has shown us different. Should Star Wars never grow and expand? Always be the same, Jedi vs Sith? I always thought it was about the Light vs. the dark, which would incorporate more than just Jedi and Sith. But let's wait till the movies comes out to see what they come up before we make up ours minds what it can only be.

Bahahaha

Only for a certain selection of folks that have limited their view. Only a sith deals in absolutes!

 

Yet Lucas put the mythology first with the PT - literally creating a story that he knew wouldn't be as popular for the sake of telling the right story. Disney, unfortunately, are playing the short game. Looking to appease older fans and make a film that might be exciting and fun to some but to me just corrupts the mythology. Bringing in a new villain with no connection to the Vader story just because they want to "avoid the PT" or come up with their own ideas is a bad move in the long run. It diminishes what is the mythological story of our generation.

Being born of the Force doesn't necessarily mean the Force itself created him. Lucas himself stated that it's up to us to decide - whether the Sith used the Dark Side to create him or the Force "reacted" and created him. Considering that Lucas' last thought on this was that Anakin was created by the Sith, it's sensible to me to think that this was the more likely scenario.

+ No it doesn't contradict anything. It was established in the same scene that Plagueis learned how to cheat death. It's by no means a great leap to later tell us he did it for himself and tricked Palpatine. And it's not about doing it to fit Plagueis in, it's about doing it so we have a villain that is relevant and not contrived.

It wasn't necessarily a lie - but rather Sidious' mistaken conclusion. The whole idea of Plagueis surviving depends on Sidious' renowned overconfidence. It has to be that if Plagueis could cheat death himself he wouldn't have told Palpatine. Therefore Palpatine thought Plagueis taught him everything he knew, but he hadn't. Plagueis could save others from death...as well as himself. Whether he taught Palpatine the former, I'm not sure but I think it likely. Like I say, I think there is a good chance Sidious was keeping Vader alive after his accident in the volcano.

You asked why Plagueis would renounce the Sith. I explained why.

Once Sidious "killed" Plagueis, he couldn't technically be part of the order. He was at that point removed from it.
Now he could decide to later reinstate himself as its master but why do that when the Sith order was defeated by the Jedi?
Considering that and how the Sith Order betrayed him and required a complete overhaul, it makes perfect sense to me that Plagueis would renounce the old order and start something new...under the guise of Snoke.

Oh come on - the "Nightsisters" and "Mortis"? Cartoon nonsense. And yet, even in the cartoons the Sith and Jedi were considered far beyond these other factions. We see it in Rebels in terms of how Vader is spoken of - no one is a match to him. The idea that there were other Dark Side orders out there that were on a level with the Sith is crazy. The Jedi would have been aware of it. They would've been a threat. They would have disrupted the balance and sought power. We see none of that. Therefore Snoke must've once been a Sith and been part of the Sith plan to take down the jedi - both to explain where he got his knowledge and why he didn't make a power play. The only Sith he could be (that would make sense) is Plagueis as he was the last Sith to be alive before the ones we see on screen, he is the only one who could have been said to cheat death and he is the only one who fits with the "old, wounded, fragile" scenario that Snoke finds himself in. The timeline also fits in perfectly in terms being a knowledgable Dark Sider before the rise of the Empire and then emerging just as it falls.

Snoke was an angel.
Snoke was a mummified Sith Lord.
Snoke was an Inquisitor.
Snoke was Palpatine.
Snoke was Maul.

No thanks.

Plagueis YouTube videos get millions of hits. Tweeted about more than anyone else. Opera Scene considered the best in the PT. Top of the poll on this site. His backstory is already in the saga = not contrived.

Most would be pro-Plagueis IMO.