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What's the point of this trilogy?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by DailyPlunge, Mar 3, 2018.

?

What's the point of this trilogy?

  1. A young woman's path to becoming a Jedi

    19 vote(s)
    11.7%
  2. The redemption of Ben Solo

    23 vote(s)
    14.2%
  3. The birth of the new Jedi Order

    13 vote(s)
    8.0%
  4. We'll cross that bridge when we get there!

    62 vote(s)
    38.3%
  5. Other

    45 vote(s)
    27.8%
  1. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    But like Johnson said, it was never really a revelation. It was a test.

    There was never any ambiguity about Kylo Ren's parentage. That wasn't really a pivotal revelation either. Just a way of not spoon feeding things in a linear fashion. I don't reject the idea of Rey nobody. I remember that a lot of people were excited about it at the time because everyone was anticipating a twist but of all the twists, that was the one that was probably least expected (and generally the least desired). But I don't agree that it was inherently more interesting. Except that you can say "I'm a nobody but it doesn't matter I can still face the dark side and finish what the Skywalkers started" and so on. The again I don't believe that it really had any more potential value than "I'm a Palpatine...... but it doesn't matter .....etc" that we got. Except maybe that nobody in Star Wars had been a nobody before (besides the characters like Luke and Anakin who thought they were nobody until the discovered they had a greater destiny to fulfil) . Having Rey be a "Palpatine (but so what?) " kinda makes it circular and ringfences the Skywalker saga in a way that gives it a distinctive signature amongst all the content that's about to come down the pipeline.
     
    #481 Martoto, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Since she makes the conscious decision to instead be a Skywalker, it seems what they were thinking was: who you are is your own choice and not something decided by others.

    It’s similar to the ‘Rey Nobody’ premise, but heightened and exaggerated in order to escalate the stakes and put her more into parallel alignment with the Ben Solo character. Being ‘nobody’, for her, forced her to face her fears of self-worth and find value in who she is, rather than where she came from.

    The ‘Palpatine’ reveal intensifies the personal drama by assigning her a value, but a negative value. She’s already achieved self-worth coming out of TLJ, but now she’s instead struggling with self-loathing, which is also the same emotional space the Ben Solo character is operating from.

    Whereas, in TLJ, they were both people who had been abandoned by the figures they trusted and bonded over that shared trauma, in TROS, they are both the grandchildren and inheritors of a dark legacy - but also the children of individuals who rejected that dark legacy. It pits them both at the same crossroads, deciding which path to follow.

    Was that done ‘well’? That’s debatable. But the idea itself is perfectly sound: Spirit is stronger than blood. What’s so remarkable about the Skywalkers was never their genealogy. It was the choices they made.
     
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  3. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    As I said before, TROS ripped off a lot of films, among them ESB and Vader revealing he was Luke's dad.
    A poll in Empire magazine some years back had that scene as being the best plot twist in cinema history. There is absolutely NO WAY they could ever have outdone that.
    Yet they tried, with Rey Palpatine.

    Rey Nobody was the best way to go. We already had a Force sensitive from a famous lineage in Kylo. Rey Kenobi wouldn't have been too bad...in fact, some said that it could have explained her instant ability to use the Mind Trick, as it was a favourite skill of Kenobi's. But Rey Palpatine was a complete disaster. Not only did it actually undo Lucas's own 'canon', as he never had any descendants, but it created - at least in my opinion - one of the worst endings they could have thought up for the Skywalker saga. The entire Skywalker bloodline is erased and the villain's lives on.

    Okay, I've heard the arguments - 'blood' doesn't matter, just because Palpatine was evil doesn't mean Rey will be....but at the end of the day...Palpatine won. You can loathe and detest Kylo Ren/Ben Solo all you like but he was the last real Skywalker. The family is gone. Kaput.
    Rey is a Palpatine. It doesn't matter what she calls herself. And there is another thing they failed to address...her parents were supposed to be 'good' people but by choosing to adopt another surname, she was rejecting them, as well as Palpatine.
    'At last...I see the end of the Skywalkers'. Sheev's words in TROS. And he was right.
     
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  4. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Adopting the Skywalker name in order to honour the legacy of Leia, Luke and Ben Solo is a far better choice than taking the name of your grandfather who is you know who. Rey’s parents obviously never used the name Palpatine. Not just for the practical purpose of concealing their identity. But also because they’ve hidden Rey in order to thwart Palpatine. The idea that Rey should use that name in order to not disrespect or disown her mother and father is ludicrous on several levels.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    What the Palpatine character wanted was to regain what he’d lost, get his revenge, and ensure his legacy of evil would live on. Can you explain how the ending promoted these goals having been achieved?
    Food for thought: George Lucas is the father of three adopted children. I find it considerably unlikely that the message of this series was ever nested in the idea that blood family is the only “real” family. To be honest, that’s actually pretty gross.
    It was her father that rejected that name and the legacy that went with it. That’s why they were ‘nobody’, to keep their daughter safe. Now she’s free of that burden and allowed to choose her own identity. Because of their deliberate sacrifice to be anonymous and live in the shadows, she can be acknowledged by the whole galaxy and live in the light. It's exactly what they would have wanted for her.
    Hey, if that’s where you want to live, then have at it. But that’s clearly not what the movie itself is saying. That’s the choice you’re making. As an outside observer, to me, it doesn't appear to be bringing you much joy.
     
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  6. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The final scene of the movie is literally confirmation that the Skywalkers will live on. Now her grandfather’s failure is complete.
     
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  7. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    It doesn't. Believe me, nothing about TROS brings me any joy. Except that it ended.:eek:
     
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  8. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

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    Yes. Joseph Campbell called the world with spirit and matter divided a wasteland. Rey finds herself a scavenger in a wasteland at the beginning of the trilogy. At the end, she brings together the two swords of Luke, the light of spirit, and Leia, the material world leader. Luke and Leia, spirit and matter, were separated at the end of the prequel trilogy. Leia's name was changed to Organa, which is Latin for instruments, what you have to work with in the material world.
     
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  9. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Everything.

    (pwned)Palpatine's grand daughter called herself a Skywalker & the SAGA ended.(pwned)

    That's how I will remember the Sequel Trilogy.

    Nothing else that happened, matters more.
     
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  10. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    TFA left viewers with some burning questions like
    1. How did Rey suddenly become such an important player in a story that she seemingly had no connection to?
    2. Where did Snoke come from, and what will his role be?
    3. What lies ahead for Phasma?
    Quite frankly, TLJ answered all three of these - with a big middle finger. It also left many more questions completely unanswered (who is Maz, how did she get Luke’s saber, what happened to Luke’s hand, how did the FO rise to power so easily without the people’s support).

    I mean it’s fine to like TLJ, but it’s really hard to argue that TLJ didn’t abruptly throw out some major pieces of TFA. There is such a thing as subverting expectations in a positive way, but this is not that.
     
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  11. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

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    I was totally confused until watching all three movies. I've a sense that some smart people discussed the mythology, and then the story was cobbled around it. They rushed through to turn profits for the mouse, but this may be what they were going for...

    1. Rey. She is a nobody, but also secretly the spawn of the devil himself. She is dumped into a wasteland, which is our material world detached from spirituality. She has a darkness inside, but has chosen good. Kylo has good inside, but has chosen evil, wearing his persona/mask. This is the dyad struggling in our psyche over who gets to wield the sword in our internal struggle. The staff she carries symbolizes polarity, and also the power of willfull choices. Jedi, Sith, and force sensitives represent the spiritual or psychological aspect of our being, that has effects in the material world as what we experience externally- represented by the republic, rebellion, resistance, empire, and first order. In the end of the final movie, her pole/staff is broken into a single yellow saber- the color of the temple guardian. What this is about esoterically, is will, and all of the people of the galaxy bringing together one end of the pole with the other-- spirit and matter, to keep down the evil which ultimately rises from inside of them. They must take out the navigation tower that allows evil to rise inside of them. Rey guards the temple, built by the Skywalkers. Built in consciousness. Yellow is not balance. Yellow is guarding the balance. Luke's green ROTJ saber symbolizes the balance, because he returned centered in the heart, and turned his dark father with love. Love is the balance in the force. The prequels focused on the good in us turning bad. The sequels, on bad turning back to good, and keeping the balance between these polar opposites.

    2. Snoke ended up being the nobody. He is a big nothing. Just another snake turned out by the phantom archetype of evil within our collective unconscious, Palpatine. Johnson hinted at another power behind the throne by modelling Snoke's throne room on the Wizard of Oz. Snoke is every snake, every tyrant that rises up from the collective unconscious, where there is this archetype of evil that is always the source of our world's a-holes. They all rise from the same place in the psyche.

    3. Phasma is FN2187 Finn's major antagonist to defeat. He is a nobody who took off the soldier helmet and refused to be just a number in the machine. The trilogy is about the people of the galaxy turning against evil, psychologically and physically, which is the lasting legacy of the Skywalkers.

    4. Maz. The product of drugs? No clue. Needed a way to get the blue sword back. Fun for kids.

    5. How did the FO rise? After the empire fell, it was always up to the people to rise up to prevent another snake ruler. In the end, the resistance was strong enough to overcome,. Evil is not something to defeat once, and then they're done. Luke tried to rebuild the temple in the material world, but it was knocked down again by consciousness. Balance restored must be maintained by everyone in the galaxy. It's like wondering why we don't have heaven on earth, but two world wars and nuclear weapons 2,000 years after Jesus showed up.

    Prequels: fall of consciousness, world detached from spirit. Darkness Rises. Originals: the heart of the story, where the light leaves home in search of overcoming the darkness, succeeds...Dawn and hope. Final trilogy: Hope fulfilled. Sunrise in the galaxy as the people rise up and overcome the darkness in themselves, with action. Luke, the spiritual light, ascends, and unites spiritually with Leia- the leader of the material forces. Rey places what their swords symbolize together into the world. TROS was probably going to be more about Leia as the leader of forces of resistance in the material world. Over the saga, she represented the goddess, the material world that receives the light. As the spiritual light entered the story, she gradually gained more force ability, until she was one with the force with Luke. Spiritual light, and material world leader united. Even former stormtroopers start to feel a spiritual connection at the end.
     
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  12. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Such as?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2022 ---
    I am not aware of any obligation TLJ had to answer those questions. Especially the last one. Phasma might as well have been dead at the end of TFA for all we knew.

    The only question that TFA directed at TLJ was that the Resistance has located Luke Skywalker and sent the budding Jedi student to fetch him. Now what?
     
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  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    JJ Abrams actually said post TFA that he didn't have any real idea of where the story was going, and that it was 'up to the next director'.
    So...Rian Johnson was left with having to decide who Rey was,what to do with Finn, how Kylo would react to killing his own father, and most of all - just exactly why Luke had chosen exile.

    Personally, I think he made a good job of answering all those questions. I'm genuinely bewildered why his film got so much hate.
     
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  14. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    A lot of the criticism of the ST revolves around narratives that the critics themselves have invented. And are at odds with reality and the actual content of the films.

    "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything." - Han Solo. : The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan.

    We already knew why Luke chose exile. We just didn't exactly know why he felt responsible. But thematically speaking it was absolutely nailed on guaranteed that he felt that he came up short as a teacher and failed the young student who betrayed him and the other pupils.




    Another one is Rian Johnson supposedly disrespecting the lightsaber. Even though he has Luke appear with it on Crait (instead of the one he constructed himself). And the last moment of the movie before the broomboy coda has Leia and Rey look on the broken weapon with veneration and hope.
     
    #494 Martoto, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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  15. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    'Disrespecting the lightsabre'....Okay.So, apparently 'fans' are getting their knickers in a twist over Rian 'disrespecting' the lightsabre.
    Er...isn't it the same one which Anakin used to kill the child Jedi in ROTS? Don't think anyone can 'disrespect' something more than using it to murder children.

    Somewhere along the line Abrams decided to turn it into Excalibur, hence the 'worthy' Rey claiming it instead of Kylo on Starkiller. When it probably was just because he was in pain from his bowcaster wound and couldn't concentrate on summoning it - notice how before it went to Rey he tried summoning it and didn't have the strength.

    I actually thought that Rey would be using a sabrestaff made from the two pieces of the crystal in TROS, because it's odd that she had a staff as a weapon in TFA if all they intended to do was give her a sword.

    I'm sorry...I am officially a nerd, always have been but I honestly I find it hard to believe people can get so angry with a person they send death threats ...over the way he treated a laser sword.

    Nope, this has actually shocked me! And people have called me an 'idiot' for being heartbroken when Kylo died...
     
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  16. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    No the fans were mad because they perceived it was telling them that lightsabers don't matter. That it was done willfully to put fans in their place and for Rian to callously walk all over their expectations and hopes. There is no forgetting what Anakin did with that saber. But that's not the saber's fault. Those younglings would have died any number of ways if Anakin had left his saber at home and let the clones do most of the massacring with blasters.

    I don't think Maz should be taken too literally regarding the saber calling out to Rey. It's the force that's calling to Rey. Or more specifically, it's the Jedi calling to her through the force. Or both. Why shouldn't the force converge around an object? Particularly one that can impact the plot like that. How dumb would it have been for Rey to have received an epiphany with Obi Wan's voice asking her "Oh hey. There doesn't happen to be a lightsaber nearby? It would be real handy for the story right now. Any way these are your first steps... keep your eyes peeled for any spare lightsabers. You will need it." Convenient though it may have been it helped give the plot a boost and enhance the enigmatic nature of the props. It's one of those ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission type deals. I think a saga is entitled to one of these,....per trilogy.

    As for Kylo Ren in the forest. Yeah he was injured. But if Yoda is to be believed that should not matter if one is committed. Kylo is trying to own and if not destroy his past. He sees his grandfather's and his uncles sabre as part of that quest. But what did Yoda say? "Try not." Like Luke was giving it a try when he failed to raise his ship from the swamp. Kylo is in a phase of trying. Rey who has had zero prospects prior to being drawn into this story is discovering that she does in fact have a greater destiny ahead of her. She must have if she is to do something about this monster that has terrorised her and now gravely hurt Fin. She was going to summon that saber, or she wasn't. Do or do not. That sums up the force and its use. The force means destiny.
     
    #496 Martoto, Feb 1, 2022
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    I am actually surprised that lightsabres matter so much...and I really didn't see Rian walking over anybody's expectations and hopes. But I loved his film...and I have to be frank here, I've been a SW fan for over four decades and finally have to accept that...I'm not really a SW fan. I'm a Skywalker fan.

    I was told this with emphasis by a fellow on the JCF, who essentially said I had no right to call myself a Han Solo fan because I liked Kylo Ren. I've had a lot of criticism levelled at me for my fondness of this particular character, and not just by SW fans. On a completely different forum...a news website, believe it or not, I got a heck of a lot of flak from a poster who practically accused me of supporting the sexual abuse of women because I happened to mention that I was a Reylo! (or used to be).

    I guess at the end of the day I have to agree to disagree with other movie goers, we all see things in a different light, and I had my particular 'hopes and expectations' crushed by TROS. The film actually depressed me. It didn't help that I thought it would be something to finish a particularly bad year I had on a personal level ,with a positive note. I'm sure others see it differently but I did not find it hopeful, satisfying and sorry JJ - I didn't find what happened to my favourite character 'fun'!:eek:

    I'm proud however, that I have not resorted to sending Abrams, Terrio and DLF death threats. I find that disgusting.
     
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  18. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    The moral authority is strong with this post!

    (+1 for the laugh)
     
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  19. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    Okay, forgive me if I'm putting this on the wrong thread...but one of the many reasons I'm glad I was banned from the JCF is some of Finn's die hard fans are starting to make some increasingly unpleasant comments about Adam Driver as well as his character. I'm referring to his talent as an actor.

    One in particular keeps insisting that the other actors were far better and that the only reason he was lauded for his acting in TLJ was because 'Daisy Ridley made him look good.'

    I find this very unfair. I have lost respect for John Boyega after his unpleasant comments on twitter post TROS, but I think he's a good actor. And I still like his character.
    It's fine to dislike a fictional character, or to prefer one character, or the actor playing them, in a film...but it isn't fair to start slating someone because you don't like the character they play. Driver has twice been nominated for an Oscar. That proves he's good at what he does.
     
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  20. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I'm pretty confident that The Cantina has no use for or interest in what some people on JCF are now starting to think or say about the actors in the ST. In any thread.

    I know that I don't.
     
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