Who does the movie title refer to?

What puzzled me in VIII was why didn't Luke new there was still light in his nephew. That contradicted my belief in the character I knew from VI. He even goes to say "I can't save him", in the end. So, perhaps Kylo/Ben isn't redeemable, although Leia says to always have had hope (although she's his mother), but then Luke says "No one's ever really gone", afterwards, so it can still go either way, I suppose.

That said, perhaps Luke didn't believe Ben was redeemable for most of VIII and before but then snapped back to be the more optimistic Luke after Yoda's speech. However, that "I can't save him" in the end seems pretty final to me. I guess it can go either way, although I'd like Ben to be redeemed, as it fits more the Star Wars style, in my opinion.

\Edit: Upon reflecting a bit more about this, perhaps there's no inconsistency when Luke says that he can't save Ben, and right after saying that "no one's ever really gone". Perhaps it just means Kylo/Ben needs to/can be saved by someone else. Leia? Rey?

 

I agree with this. Luke basically says ‘I can’t save him...but no ones ever really gone.’ It implies to me that someone could save him, his mother, Rey, Kylo ren himself but that Luke knew it would not be him to do it.

Otherwise he would have said that no one could save him. The ‘I’ in ‘I can’t save him.’ Is telling I think.

 

Actually it was this hope that Rey held out that Luke warned her would not go the way she wanted. She rushed off and figured that if Luke wouldn't try to bring him back to the light she would. It blew up in her face. He doubled down.

 

This is True from Lukes own point of view for sure but the ‘No ones every really gone.’ Thing means that the door has not closed on Ben Solo being able to return as Leia’s son, only that Luke cannot save him. I think he means that if Ben chose to return from the darkside he could, but that as far as Luke can tell Kylo Ren will never make the choice. Essentailly saying that it is a choice we keep making to be good or evil rather than a singular choice that one cannot return from. Which interestingly is differnt from Yoda’s opinion on the dark side and how it consumes you. This of course was already proved wrong by Luke in ROTJ when Anakin returned from the darkside. So Luke out of everyone knows the power of someone to choose to return but that they must make that choice themselves.

 

Yoda and Obi One could not save Anakin, in the same way Luke cannot save Ben. It is a generational impediment that Lucas introduced in his films in order to give way to new heroes. This is not Luke’s fight, as he somewhat admitted in TROS trailer. It’s the new mentality, fresh ideas and improved powers what will change things. Like in the real world

 

as @Kylocity points out, Luke recognizes that it's not for him to fix. not that Ben can't be saved, just that it isn't for Luke to do it.

 

Yes, that might be it.

 

After being chastised for his folly by Yoda, Luke sheds the hubris and guilt that caused him to fail and truly passes on the mantle of Jedi - and all that said mantle used to and was intended to mean - to Rey, placing the burden of saving the galaxy on her shoulders with the same hopeful confidence that Yoda once showed in and bestowed upon him.

Luke can't save his nephew because he's passed on that task to Rey.

 

I think what you’ve touched upon here is something imteresting that exists in Rians TLJ script but that isn’t very well executed. Luke felt a huge pressure to be the last jedi, to be a guardian of peace and order in the galaxy and to bear that burden. This is one of the reasons he would have been conflicted over the darkness he sensed in Ben Solo. Luke even refers to himself as ‘The great Luke Skywalker.’ If my memory serves (or something similar ‘because I was Luke Skywalker..’) So he feels a cosmic burden that actually stops him from acting on his instincts as he once did. Hence why he doesn’t believe that him facing down the whole first order will work. The burden of being Luke Skywalker actually immobilises him and only once that legacy becomes Rey’s is Luke able to get back into the galactic fight. Its not an arc i particularly like for Luke but it is one that explains his failure to help ben solo.

 

^ Luke bought into his own hype and legend and let himself get both complacent and arrogant, as was a problem with many members of the original Jedi Order before and during the Clone Wars and ultimately led to the Order's downfall at the hands of the Sith.

By showing up to chastise him, Yoda helps Luke see where he'd gone wrong and the lesson that he ought to have learned, and it's why Luke ultimately chooses to do what he does and why and how he is able to fully pass the mantle of Jedi on to Rey in spite of not actually being very helpful to her because of his own mindset.

 

I think I have a way to answer how. At least how I see it. Anakin is resurrected in a sense from Mortis. Has an epic battle with sidious. After he defeats his former master he is asked “where are you going?” He replies “to free the slaves” “what slaves?” He replies “all of them” next we see broom boy and company being abused and a voice is heard saying “I have come for them” “who are you?” Says their master. “Anakin Skywalker” then in narration we hear how he traveled the galaxy for some time liberating those who are in need. Then returns to mortis to watch over the galaxy. Saga end.

Something like that assuming I’m right but I’m probably not

 

I agree it's clunky that Luke can sense the light in his father, but not his nephew. Maybe because of what happened in the past, Ben Solo's not open to accepting any help from his uncle and Luke knows that. Then, of course, he's more than receptive to communication with some girl he's just met, who also just sliced his face open with a lightsaber.

I think RJ went overboard with Luke's character in TLJ, not gonna lie about that. He was a tad *too* grumpy hermit for my taste.

 

I guess we're in the same camp then. It was a bit too grumpy Luke for me too. But then, we don't know what exactly happened between the two to lead Luke to consider killing him on his sleep (another too big of a departure for my taste). Yes, I know things were sour, and then one thing led to another, and I can buy that a moment of weakness did the rest, as I don't consider Luke to be without its flaws. It's what happened before those events that must have been very significative for so much hate and so big of a rift between the two. But that's for another day, and thread.

Back on topic, it will not be Luke to bring back Ben, were that to happen, that seems pretty obvious. But Rey could do it, as she does seem to have the compassion, the same compassion and hope that once Luke had for his father. And, above all, his mother. We'll never know what role Leia would have in IX had she didn't pass away, but I have a hunch she will still play a major role on Ben's eventual redemption. She was the one who has never lost hope, and Star Wars is all about hope after all. Luke didn't give up on his father, and his compassion for him was the key to save him and the rebellion. I'm sure Leia would never give up on her son, and if she had a major role in IX I would love for her to be the key to Ben's redemption.

 

but he does see it (and he affirms it to Leia: no is ever really gone).
it's part of why he didn't strike him down in the first place, the reason he took a course of no-harm at the end of Crait, and why his last words to Ren Ben were framed as a lesson and a threat that will ultimately be a reassurance (just like your father).

he knows Han is nagging at Ben's conscience and he intends to nag as well; that Light is not going to go away, it's just going to get more powerful. : D

 

Luke exiling himself didn't have quite as much to do with Ben's fall as others, Han included, believed that it did. It was more about his own hubris, arrogance, and fear.

Much of the story of The Force Awakens is predicated on a false assumption regarding why Luke did what he did in going to Ach-To, and the thing that is brilliant about The Last Jedi is that it upends that assumption in much the same way that The Empire Strikes Back upends the assumptions that people made about Luke's past and his place in the Rebellion's fight against Vader and the Empire.

Luke's actions on Crait via Force Projection were not actually about confronting Kylo and the First Order or helping the Resistance escape. They were an act of personal redemption akin to Anakin/Vader's actions aboard the second Death Star at the conclusion of Return of the Jedi.

 

Yes, in the literal sense. That is exactly what I meant. Name changes are needed now. Schmi Jedi, and her son Anikan Jedi; don't forget Luke Jedi. Let's not impede progress.

 

I’d say that Luke’s willingness to die (therefore to stay true to the Light) did that.
Veder’s compassion towards his own son the rest.

 

Yes, the decision to not fight, and to be free of all fear. And, willingness to die, as you say.

Looking back I wonder how much of it was calculated from Luke's part and how much was him following his heart, when he decided to face Vader in VI. He said he sensed the good in him, and that he had to try. At the time I interpreted that as pure compassion and love for his father, and hope to bring him back and with that win the fight for the light. I still think he thought like that, for the most part, but it could also have been a tactic to get to the Emperor, and then try his chances, with his father on his side or against the two. Either way, Luke was a real hero that day, willing to sacrifice for the common good. And, at the end of VIII it was the same Luke we got used to.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.." -Master Yoda

 

Excellent point. I guess, in my mind, he just seems so sure of the good in Vader in ROTJ, but a fair bit less sure of good in his nephew in TLJ because he's not as outspoken about it.

 

It's too late for Shimi to change her name though. She's too dead to do that.