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Can we find common ground?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    And such scores don't factor in those who are well versed in movie criticism vs those who are clueless.

    I thought Confucius nailed it when he was asked about TLJ...

    Tsze-kung asked, saying, "What do you say of a movie which is hated by all the people in the neighborhood?"
    The Master said, "We may not for that conclude that it is bad.
    "And what do you say of a movie which is loved by all the people in the neighborhood?"
    The Master replied, "We may not for that accord our approval of it. What is better for a movie than either of these cases is that the wise in the neighborhood love it, and the foolish hate it."

    :p
     
    #61 Moral Hazard, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    When we first meet him on Tatooine, there is dialogue about how he is a very good podracer, which is a form of piloting. The dialogue makes it clear that podracing is something he has been doing somewhat regularly during his life. Watto remarks "the boy is good". QuiGon comments how he "must have Jedi reflexes" to podrace. We see him win a podrace, which further establishes his abilities.

    Later in the movie, he gets a lesson in piloting starfighters from Ric Olie, who comments that he "catches on pretty quick". The way we (the viewer) join that conversation in the middle implies that it went on longer than merely what we see. Finally, during the climax of the movie, Anakin is on board his Starfighter with an experienced astromech droid.

    Furthermore, the movie viewers already have some familiarity with the character before E1 even started. They have already established this character as one day being "the best star pilot in the galaxy." It did not stretch credulity to have him be good as a child at something which he would one day be the best at.

    So by the time Anakin gets in the Naboo Starfighter, we have already seen tons of evidence to suggest that piloting it is something he will be able to do and do well. In contrast, with Rey there is absolutely nothing establishing her as a pilot until she and Finn are running away from the First Order and she remarks she is a pilot. Next thing you know, she's flying the Falcon solo (no pun intended) as well as Han and Chewie combined ever did. (Yes I know Finn and BB-8 were on board but being in the gunner's chair - or suspended via cables in the hallway - doesn't exactly help with the piloting)
     
    #62 Wolfpack, Feb 12, 2018
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  3. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Wait what?
    How do you exactly get that from the adages above that?
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    You left out the most important part of my statement in parends: If something has to be addressed in books, then that is a shortcoming of the movie.

    Major plot elements of a movie should be explained within the movie, not left to external sources which are usually just writers trying to retcon out a plot hole or something otherwise horribly explained.
     
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  5. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Yeah I can get a bit cryptic sometimes. :rolleyes:

    The poster demonstrated the % of extreme scores from both sides of the debate on IMDB.
    I was pointing out the limitations of a score that doesn't differentiate between a trained eye and the clueless.

    I twisted a Confucius quote about popular opinion into being about the movie.
    As a movie enthusiast (and not a Disney shareholder) the popular opinion (including the foolish) doesn't carry as much weight for me as the opinion of the experts (the wise).

    IMO if the experts like TLJ and the non-experts hate it I'd still take it as a positive.
    In medical matters I value the opinion of my doctor over my neighbor anyday!
     
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  6. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    That is really a stretch. I don't see it. I guess we have no common ground here. Thanks. There is absolutely no denying that the kid gets into the Naboo Starfighter and has absolutely NO CLUE what he is doing. None. He randomly punches buttons. He "tries spinning, that's a good trick". What I saw was the most extreme example of Gary Stu/Mary Sue in the franchise....in my opinion.
     
    #66 Lock_S_Foils, Feb 12, 2018
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  7. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    oh okay. I understand. :)
     
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  8. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    Not sure what you're trying to accomplish. The movie is very divisive and there are good reasons for why that's the case. If you ask for people to find common ground with you just because you think they're wrong about something, you're not going to succeed. Accept that you like a film that a lot of other people don't like. There's nothing wrong with that.

    I like many films that others dislike. One of my favorite movies, for example, is Alexander starring Colin Farrell from 2004. That movie was trashed by basically everyone including historians, but I really love it. But if someone tells me they don't like it I'm not going to ask them "Well tell me what you like about the movie so we can find common ground!".

    The main thing that bothers me about TLJ however is that it has significantly contributed to the increased Star Wars fatigue. Toy sales are down at a record low and less and less people are excited about the upcoming films. And what does Lucasfilm do then? Well, they announce even more films!
     
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  9. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    I don't see finding common ground as a priority at all.

    What I would like to see, is all sides being able to discuss the film intellectually, without hyperbole, and in a manner that actually address each participant's points during the back-and-forth.

    But instead, most discussions are instantly derailed by one or more participants going into a mode of communication completely void of common sense.

    I'm speaking to participants on all sides here.
     
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  10. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Force Sensitive

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    Hopefully no one tries to get Obi Wan to find the common ground.

    Tis well know he prefers the high ground (duel)
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I understand the need for the fans of Star Wars to heal now and mend rifts, but I'd say I agree with @Benjamin Lewis on this one.

    I'm always open to a rational discussion of a movie, and I'm hardly the first to admit that though I like TLJ and the current canon, it's hardly perfect. Discussion and debate are great, and make for a healthy series in general.

    However, it's when stuff starts getting out of hand, like ridiculous "Mary Sue" accusations or gatekeeping of what makes a "True Fan" that I think we need to try to come together as fans on the common ground.

    In fact, look at this thread, even. @Lock_S_Foils tried to make a thread about finding common ground, and far too many of the comments here are unnecessarily argumentative. That, I think, demonstrates the problem to its most very extreme. So many of us are so caught up in emotion on these issues that we fail to even recognize context or irony.
     
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  12. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Rebel General

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    The franchise itself is our common ground. However, I don't believe we'll find much common ground with regards to our personal likes and dislikes of individual films. And that applies to all of the films. But we are all fans and we all post here - that is our common ground.

    So whether you like or dislike the ST, the PT, the Star Wars stories, or even the OT - we all love Star Wars as a whole and it's hugs all round :D
     
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  13. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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  14. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    But Rey isn't a Mary Sue in TLJ. Anyone with a decent mind can compare the common criteria of what constitutes a Mary Sue place it on Rey's character in TLJ. What that person will find out that none of these criteria fit.

    -------------------

    I will find common ground with anyone who loves Star Wars :)
     
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  15. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel Official

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    " People are apoplectic over Rey as "Mary Sue" yet seem to forget this concept is not new in the SW story (young Anakin or Luke), not sure why Rey doing things has made them so angry"

    Yeah. i really don't get the hypocrisy. Anakin is extremely powerful because of his blood...okay, interesting I guess....Then we have farm boy Luke destroying the death star by using the force, something he'd never done before or had any real training with. Then he stands toe to toe with Vader, who is more powerful than any bad guy in the ST for a good while despite having what? A week or two of introductory training and no lightsaber instruction, yet people have no problem with that. But Rey, who's been refining her fighting skills all her life narrowly bests a wounded and mentally compromised dark side apprentice and everybody loses their minds. I can't get my head around it.

    As much as I like the ST so far I think a lot of the regular criticisms have some basis and I agree with a lot of them (The rehashing of scenes/dialogue, awkward comedy, too many chance meetings, Maz, the resistance as a concept, SKB, wasted characters etc) but the whole Rey as mary sue criticism doesn't make any sense to me, given what we've seen previous protagonists do.
     
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  16. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    I'm fair certain @Lock_S_Foils wasn't lookin' or askin' for priority.

    But, Yep.
    This sounds like what he's askin'.

    And, Yer Right. That's the Result.And wish it weren't, but it is.

    Also what @cawatrooper said
    I agree with Ya for Certain.
    @StoneRiver Said It Best ... That Star Wars Is Our Common Ground.
     
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  17. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    I agree with the TLJ support that anytime Luke, Ben, Rey were on screen it was a classic of a movie. Any time they were not present was pretty close to my least favorite Star Wars moments.
     
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  18. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    indeed.

    i have 'liked' all of the posts you refer to, as they came.. and they spoke their mind. I even liked a couple of posts that were close to being personal attacks.. which i would normally detest.

    the 'common ground' between us has always been, and will always be our love of Star Wars.

    The personal attacks and the nastiness.. that needs to settle down soon. if everyone replied to the post and not the poster.. everyone could disagree (or agree) in relative harmony.

    new Star Wars content is coming thick n fast now. so much for us all to get our teeth into, and with a little more decorum (used google to find that word :D) it will be the best of times for us all.. whether we like it or not.

    /tipshat to @Lock_S_Foils for the thread.
     
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  19. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

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    The wise men fear not to show their love and appreciation, whilst the fools hate and do that publicly?
     
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  20. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    What you said is true, Chise.
    I was just wondering how Moral Hazard was able to get to the third "quote" via logic from the first two quotes.
    He explained, so I understood.
    Now, if someone were to simply said Confucius said, The wise men fear not to show their love and appreciation, whilst the fools hate and do that publicly?", then I would not have been confused about the logic.

     
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