Case for Snoke

Naturally, you debate this by finding a musician or music theory major to look at the two pieces and tell you that there are no similarities. There are already musicians looking at the two in the Plagueis thread, one of whom has said that they are strikingly similar. There's the youtube video I posted that you could find someone knowledgeable to refute. Until then, it's a point against you, I'm afraid.

They're not important to me, but they seemed to be important to you. You're the one who posted the quote! I was just pointing out that the quote you posted as evidence is not actually in your favor.

It is not semantics, and this in particular is why I brought up that your English is not the best. I'm not trying to attack you personally, but trying to let you know that your interpretations are not always correct. Snoke believes that the Empire's structure was good, the Operator believes that the Empire's structure was bad. Snoke wanted the Empire to last, the Operator wanted the Empire to be broken. These are conflicting viewpoints.

These points are a direct challenge to your theory. I am not trying to trick you, I am trying to show you where the theory is weak. I voted Yes in your poll, because with a few changes I believe this theory could be a good one. But in order to get there, you must remove weaknesses from the theory.

 

So is your argument, Snoke is Cronal is all the ways that fit the evidence, but he is not Cronal is all the ways that he conflicts with the evidence? In which case, debate is impossible. Do you realize that?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 29, 2016 ---

In your first line of argument, you say that he is shrunken! How can you use this as evidence when Snoke is tall?

 

This is, yet again, a place where the English means he is shorter, not the same size. But let's put this aside, and I will address your list, since that is what you want to see. Apparently, you don't want to debate anything that comes before that in your opening post.

1) Snoke has Dark Side damage--this simply points to a Dark Side Force user, but could mean more when we look at everything together.
2) Your argument is that the Operator and Snoke are the same, but they cannot be the same as seen with their conflicting viewpoints on the Empire. So you still need to explain how Snoke saw the Empire rise and fall. Thus, there is nothing in this point.
3) What points to Snoke knowing Dark Sorcery? If you are saying this is how he can see events through the Force, then okay.
4) What, it sounds like Ren because they both start with an R? But okay, Cronal started a cult.
5) Okay, Cronal had students in the cult.
6) Snoke is not the Operator. So we don't know how he came to power.
7) Snoke is not the Operator. Leia could know Cronal from the Imperial Senate, yes.
8) You skipped 8
9) No, the Operator only pretended to die. Snoke is not the Operator. Sorry if this is repetitive. This doesn't have to do with Cronal.
10) The Operator did, yes. But Snoke is not the Operator. Snoke not being the Operator, however, is a separate issue from Snoke being from Cronal's template.
10.5) Your numbering got messed up. The Operator did, not Snoke.
11) Snoke hasn't cleared the First Order of weak elements, Kylo is still a part of it. Jokes aside, Snoke thought the old Empire had acceptable strategy. I see nothing that should attribute the efficiency of the First Order to Snoke, and not Hux Senior and the Operator.
12) Snoke could have created the First Order, okay.
13) I just read through Cronal's Wookieepedia page, and couldn't find any mention of a super weapon.
14) Yes, they both use a mobile command base, presumably because they are both weak.

So to summarize the above:
-Dark Side Damage
-Uses the Force
-Has a cult
-Taught cult followers
-Leader of a New Empire
-Mobile command station
-Could know Leia from Imperial Senate

The only way in which I see Cronal as a template for Snoke, from this, is that they both have a mobile command station. If that is what you mean by template, then I completely agree. Snoke's mobile command base, because he is frail, was probably inspired by Cronal. Everything else, could be said of a large number of other inspirations. I will keep looking for Cronal's super weapons, because I remember seeing that somewhere despite not finding it on the Wookieepedia page. Snoke is still not the Operator.

Edit: and the point about knowing Leia is good, too.

 

I think it’s very likely that the Operator created the First Order, but that was my opinion from the start. However, it’s hardly certain that the Operator created the First Order, and it is certainly not consensus. We do not know if the Operator is human or not. However, we do know that Snoke is an alien. The quote from the novel proves it. You cannot twist that quote to make Snoke a human.

What’s more, the Operator’s ideology is incompatible with Snoke’s.

I admit, I’m tired of saying the same things again and again. You cannot see what is obvious, what I have tried to make very clear. I definitely think aspects of Snoke were taken from Cronal, but I’ve also thought that from the start, after you brought him up. I do not think your theory works as written, and changes need to be made to it. If someone else want to try to show you where you’re wrong, great. I’m sorry, I am tired, and I no longer find this fun. You will not listen. I’m done here.

 

Before I get into my rambling thoughts on the Operator:


[QUOTE

4) The Operator and Snoke have opposing viewpoints on the Empire. They cannot be the same person.
Snoke: "The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.”

Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.”

“Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

Operator: "This is how it must be. The Empire became this...ugly, inelegant machine. Crude and inefficient. We needed to be broken into pieces. We needed to get rid of those who want to see that old machine churning ineluctably forward. It's time for something better. Something new. An Empire worthy of the galaxy it will rule."
.[/QUOTE]


These are not exclusive or contradictory statements. In one statement a person describes the empire as an ugly and inefficient machine. 30 years later a person describes the empire as ruined by sentimentality (especially the sentimentality of Darth Vader who managed to murder the emperor, seriously damaging the empire.) These could quite easily be the same person. People do change and evolve their viewpoints, but these are not exclusive. One is a concrete metaphor of the inelegant machine. The other is a more abstract idea that an emotional weakness is to blame.

So it looks like I'm on board for the Operator as Snoke, even though I know only the basic outline of the character. Basically the Operator and Snoke were created at the same time by the same and current Story Group, though they are set 30 years apart. The Operator has only appeared in the followup novel. Snoke only in the movie, etc. Why would they put energy into creating and establishing a new character not to use him for the backstory of the main villain? (Just like why did they create that weapons facility on Jakku we've never seen?)

From what I have read about "Rogue One" one of the new characters is the cape draped minister of information. His descriptions came to mind as I was reading the account of Cronal, who supposedly is a pet of Hidalgo's. I can imagine the Story Group tasking Hidalgo with finding a backstory character who could be there new villain, and in the end he produces his own character. Of course changes would need to be made to fit in with his known future, daughter shed, species or height changed.

I don't see structural inconsistencies, so for the sake of monologue, assume that a Cronalike dark side prophet becomes an admiral and minister of information (always the most evil position) to the Emperor. This would probably have put him close to the Emperor, who would have valued information greatly. So when the original "Star Wars" came out Tarkin was above Vader and probably this character as well. Vader really was just a badass henchman.

After the death of said Emperor, our guy calls himself the Operator and tries to keep empire together. After the battle he was presumed dead and absent for a while. What did he do while he was gone, how and where?

After Battle of Jakku, the remnants of the empire retreat into unknown space, though I don't recall who led them.

Around the B of J little Ben Solo is born.

Snoke appears on the scene and comes to know Leia and Han well enough to have access to Ben. . Is he posing as member of the New Republic? Is he posing as an imperial informant, rewarded for turning in his rivals? He has to show up by the end of the first decade, to have been there from the beginning

Snoke seduces Ben to the Dark Side. We are still not sure how old Ben was, though a recent report indicated that the Jedi Academy incident happened concurrent with upcoming book, "Bloodlines".

You know the rest.

So did the Operator go into the Unknown Regions? Snoke has to be back only a few years later so he can start working on Ben. Was that enough time for him to any sort of transformation?

There's still more to figure out.

 

Gonna try to help @Yordis here.....

I really think this word right here is where a lot of the differences on these Snoke debates really occurs. There is a BIG difference between "speculation"/"assumptions" and "facts"/"canon". Speculations are just what someone thinks based on their own opinions/feelings about something they have seen or read. Facts/canon are things that have actually been plainly stated..... NOT IMPLIED. I think sometimes we can get so caught up in our own theories and wanting to prove them that we end up arguing over something that is just an interpreted opinion. Everyone has them. Speculation is just based on a person's point of view and it tends to get circular.

Where has it been stated that the Operator is human? If we haven't been told he/she is human, we are just making a speculation at the moment... it could be right or wrong. Even if we know in the past, the Empire was anti-alien, we just cannot assume that is the case in this instance and argue it as fact. There iare usually exceptions to every rule ----->Grand Admiral Thrawn.... now legends but doesn't mean a new EU novel cannot do the same.

It is also a fact that Snoke has been stated to be HUMANOID which mean while he may look human, he is of an alien race.

Have to remember, every review of "Aftermath" is just another persons OPINION of what they think. THe only facts are in the book itself. If it is not clearly defined, then it is not fact. Saying "he is most likely, probably or certainly one who created First order" clearly shows this is still just a speculation (not a fact) and the pros/cons will be debated in a circular fashion simply because everyone has their own opinion of if he did or didn't.

 

Shrunken = Shriveled?

Just askin, if THAT was what you meant, @McDiarmid

 

Yeah isn't it that with the Empire & the FO they are extremely prejudiced against aliens ?

 

By the way, Snoke can't be the White Cape from Rouge One, because

Sorry, @zagernevans @McDiarmid

But did read the part about reconciling those two quotes, and I think I agree, so thank you. If you read Snoke's quote as "Despite poor strategy and arrogance, the Empire was brought down by Vader's sentiment", I can see how it works. So if the Operator is not the man in Rouge One, it's possible that Snoke is the Operator. I think it's strange that he would exchange a uniform for a robe, but it's not impossible. However, I do have a strong suspicion that White Cape is indeed the Operator. I admit I haven't read Bloodline yet, lol. Mostly because it won't be released until May 3rd.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2016 ---

Look at this as though it's stereoscopic.

 

I still can't find a refence for this. Are you sure this happened?

This is misleading out of context. Cronal believed that the Force was pushing everything towards destruction, in the Way of the Dark. It's a non-dualistic view of the Force in the sense that he believed the Force was only Dark, not that he appreciated both Light and Dark.

No--I was wrong, too. He believes that the Force is not even important, in the face of the Dark. So, he still doesn't appreciate Light and Dark together.
Here's an overview:
Way of the Dark

 

I have to say, of all the ideas and theories running around about Snoke, this one (being an original character inspired by Cronal) is hands down the best one I've ever seen. Good job.

Oh, and while I am here, I did see something about people comparing Snoke's theme to the cue used in Revenge of the Sith when Palpy tells Ani-boy about Plagueis:
You do know that sometimes music can sound alike not because of character relation but because of mood?
Also, compare the following tracks also written by John Williams:
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - "No Ticket"

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - "Gilderoy Lockhart"

So by the same logic, this means that Lockhart is a Nazi.
Sometimes, music written by the same man and trying to capture a similar tone (in this case, the Dark Side) might sound a bit alike.