Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

Pablo is playing a game. Plagueis confirmed.

 

Exactly my thought.

 

Great shout, will look into it!

Look, these Pablo quotes certainly lean far more towards the debunking Plagueis notion, as you propose.
I've said from the start - I don't know what way they will go and that I have doubts (based on things beyond Pablo) that Plagueis won't be Snoke.
My argument is that Plagueis should be Snoke and that he makes the most sense. I've also argued on the grounds that a lot of details point to Plagueis. And that these things give me hope.

Now as for Pablo's quotes. Again, he not once confirms that Snoke isn't Plagueis. You'd think that as he has confirmed plenty of other stuff and actually refused to talk about some story lines that if he's willing to imply Snoke isn't Plagueis then just go further and confirm it! It's like he is holding out because he isn't 100% sure. Or he is purposefully trying to throw people off the scent so one of the big reveals isn't ruined early.

Secondly, I don't buy the notion that Pablo knows everything. My guess is that there is a small inner circle that knows the vital stuff (like what occurred during the OT with Vader's reveal etc) and that this story group is not privy to the big facts or the information that they do not require.

Thirdly, it appears to me that JJ just set a lot of stuff up in TFA without anything needing to be written in stone. Rian Johnson could go in a number of directions with VIII - He could change original ideas that were not canonised in TFA. Some characters and stories weren't fleshed out by JJ so Rian has the potential to do that. And Rian is a fan of the PT, he will have seen all this talk of Plagueis and perhaps it could make them realise that Plagueis is the way to go with Snoke. That sounds desperate on my behalf but I think it's possible.

My biggest issue with Snoke not being Plagueis is that I am yet to hear an alternative that I think works. And I'd really like to - honestly! Because if Plagueis isn't Snoke I fear I will be disappointed because the alternative doesn't satisfy all the elements that Plagueis would.

 

He ceased to become Darth Plagueis and became Snoke. That's why he's referred to as a "newly introduced character".

The one thing that stands out for me regarding Pablo, is the fact that he has even gotten involved in the Plagueis debate. He's well aware of the Plagueis theories out there, as the Plagueis train gathers speed online and more and more people discuss it and bombard him with questions! So, he must've discussed Plagueis with JJ at some point, as he's a pivotal part of the saga (possibly created Anakin and Palpatine's Opera Scene story was the trump card in converting Anakin to the darkside). JJ is very aware of him. So why would he create "a new random character" called Snoke who appears to be everything Plagueis has been described to be in ROTS, the Plagueis novel, the references to him in 'Tarkin'??

JJ and Kasdan know exactly who Plagueis was - his existence is a pivotal part of the saga. For them to ignore him and create someone identical to him makes no sense. If they haven't taken him into account, they will ruin the story. The ST will feel tacked on and unnecessary, and I for one will not regard it as canon!

However, they aren't that stupid. There's a lot of game playing going on here and I'm not falling for any of it.

 

The information master_shaitan and others have provided seem to have established compelling points linking Snoke with Plagueis, and I appreciate those efforts to help us understand who or what Snoke might be.

The points made seem less arbitrary and more purposeful and convincing enough, but it's always important to keep in mind the possibilities -- especially, if for some very good or strange reason, all the apparent Plagueis connections, including the Williams' score, the character's origins with Lucas, might later be shown to be nothing more than massive misinterpretation or misdirection.

And/or especially if the storytellers are of a mind to look past what George Lucas had otherwise masterfully created in Darth Plagueis, a character which was broadly developed (and, later, retroactively relegated to "legend" status) in the novel (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis_(novel)) heavily informed by Lucas' direct input.

It can be regrettable to see such a unique and powerful character go to waste, if that is what is happening. I'm hopeful the "legendary" status is simply due to something such as him having been a Muun or his demise seeming (until Palpatine's uneasy feeling) so final. Plagueis is still canon via Revenge of the Sith and the Tarkin novel (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_(novel)), so he's not been entirely effaced from the saga.

If Snoke is not Darth Plagueis, then, in terms of "best case scenario," perhaps the storytellers somehow have created a character as potentially compelling and worthy of this saga. In which case, I look forward to seeing how that works out in the next two films.

I still think do you have to somehow supercede, in an appreciable way, the cunning and control of the previous villain, Palpatine, or else it could call into question the significance of what Darth Vader / Anakin Skywalker and his son Luke Skywalker achieved through their combined sacrifice in their overcoming of Palpatine and the Dark Side in Return of the Jedi.

What succeeds that, in terms of an antagonist, would have to be "next level," I believe, if this is a story arising from cycles of Light and Dark yet also wrought of escalations and progressions on both sides of the good-vs.-evil conflict. It seems to make sense that the next challenge to Luke, Leia, Han, and the galaxy at large is something unprecedented, which then justifies the chaos at the beginning of The Force Awakens and Luke's otherwise out-of-character "disappearance."

In my experiences as a writer, I do know creating an utterly new character can be done, as there is certainly more than enough material and history in canonical Star Wars to draw from as well as opportunities to establish new characters with instantly "deep" backstories (e.g. Maz Kanata) or groups, such as the Acolytes of the Beyond (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond) and the Knights of Ren (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Ren).

Perhaps Snoke will be shown to have been inspired by Darth Plageuis or was even his master or one of his secret apprentices or an experiment or a former colleague or an alter ego. It's literally anyone's guess until he's further defined, if ever. They share a supervillain relevance in the Dark Side. So it comes down to abilities and agendas: who could make the better case for a worthy Sequel Trilogy supervillain?

If Snoke truly is simply "just another bad guy," one with no established or justifiable relevant presence/power, investment, much less any preexisting ties to the overall saga, then it is entirely possible a massive opportunity might have been lost, and the opportunity to achieve something arguably deeper, more meaningful, and more worthy of the saga in terms of storytelling was somehow not taken. On the other hand, it could be a brilliant move if the new character could work more effectively.

The prospect of a new character does bring with it many potential benefits, including the relief and the realization you now have the opportunity to create an identity that can literally be anyone who has come from anywhere and can do or know nearly anything. It's actually exciting, because you can define things anew without having to worry immediately about that character's past.

Ultimately, you do still have to be mindful, as a writer, when attempting to integrate that character in such a complex saga like this. Which is to say, while creating an entirely new character from scratch is certainly possible, it really cannot be done in a superficial, retcon, or arbitrary manner without risking shallowness. Such things should be done carefully, tastefully, and appropriately as possible.

Major characters tend to have relatively deep pasts (revealed sooner or later) in Star Wars, longstanding stances on key views, relationships with other characters -- reputations, memories, unique characteristics, stories, and, yes, legends. Yoda was "real" and yet "legendary" within the Star Wars galaxy. By the time of The Force Awakens, Luke Skywalker has achieved mythical status in certain areas of the galaxy while still alive.

So there are "myths" and "legends" and "lore" within Star Wars itself, which enrich the saga with past and possibilities. Relationships with Star Wars and our own mythologies are neither accidental nor insubstantial. Star Wars is a contemporary mythology of its own and worthy of extended consideration and comparison with regards to the myths and legends of antiquity.

So, personally speaking, after all the (sometimes thankless) work that has gone into developing and populating this galaxy over decades, I would very much prefer to see that core vital mythic tradition of Star Wars respected, preserved, and developed further, be it through existing or newly minted characters.

So, my advice to the writers: Do, or do not. There is no try.

JediMasterRobert

 

Great post from my perspective, enveloping all important aspects.

Should be wrapped and sent as mail on adress of J.J. Abrams,L. Kashdan, and just in case guys dot get it, also on adress of Alan Horn, chairman of the Walt Disney Studios who recently, celebrating TFA 2 billion dollars mark on box office released this statement:

"The film's achievements are truly astounding, and it's our great honor to relaunch this cinematic galaxy not only for all the devoted decades-long fans but for a new generation who will keep the Star Wars legacy alive for many years to come," ...

... this guy surely would understand arguments for Plagueis mentioned in your post,and on this respected forum.

 

This I can get behind. I have no problem with the idea of Plagueis being Snoke as long as the writing is there to back it up, just as I am fine with him being a completely new character provided that the writing is also good. Making arguments for why something should or shouldn't be is much of the fun of internet discussion boards. Your arguments for Plagueis are sound, but I like that you leave it open to other possibilities as long as they are handled well(even if you obviously feel that Plagueis is the BEST possibility).

What I do have an issue with is the idea that whether or not Snoke turns out to be Plagueis could ruin the entire trilogy, regardless of which side of the argument that you stand on. A person that makes such an argument has already hardened their perspective before seeing what explanations either way are given in the film. So even if the film gives us a good reason, the very reveal contrary to what said fan has decided in his/her head has already potentially ruined it for them because they are so entrenched in their narrow minded mindset. I see perspectives like this a lot in the fan communities surrounding various properties, and I always find it ridiculous. More often than not those fans just end up ruining their own enjoyment of whatever franchise it may be. Worse yet, after a reveal contrary to what they wanted, they sometimes try to ruin other fans enjoyment of the franchise as well.

Even if the reveal of Snoke's Identity isn't what you wanted and you still feel that it would have been better the other way because of such and such reasons, that doesn't mean that the other outcome is terrible, even if it isn't as good as it could have been. I can think of a number of franchises that I enjoy that I would change certain things about, quite a few really, but just because I feel certain things should have been handled differently doesn't mean that the franchise is ruined for me.

Is it possible that the reveal and how it is told will ruin the new trilogy, sure, but lets wait til we get to that point before we make the judgement. Now if we get to Episode VIII and find out that Snoke is in fact Mickey Mouse, well in that case we can all start to riot . But before then, try and be just a smidge open minded.

 

I know I could became Sith - suspect after this I will just say (as only the Sith deals in absolute), but I must say it.

If Snoke (once he is introduced as such in ep VII), if he is anyone else than Darth Plagueis the Wise, it will result in same aftermath of Star Wars saga just as one being Mickey Mouse himself.

 

You're post actually perfectly backs up the points I made in my last post, thanks for supporting my argument .

 

If Snoke , once as it is introduced as such, is anyone else than Plagueis, it will be the same as he is Mickey Mouse. That counts for me, as the saga is destroyed.

The only reason why Lucas was reluctant to make sequel trilogy is exactly this.
Problem of main villain.
However he has left the "hatch" in a way of introducing Darth Plagueis story, a hatch on which it will be possible to plausibly connect sequel trilogy one day. Plagueis is product of Lucas' mind of his years long struggle to make plausible foundation for sequel trilogy.

So while I fully respect the right on different thinking and points of view, here we should understand we are dealing with understanding and knowledge.

 

Once again, you keep helping my argument, I really do appreciate it.

 

I am with @ITG , if Snoke isn't Plagueis.... these films will have a Disney asterisk and I will regard them as Legends, not worthy of Lucas' brand. Thrawn is so much better than Hux, Krayt more interesting than Snoke, it will not be difficult to ignore the mouse material.

 

Thanks as well, your making up of your mind before seeing the film is appreciated.

 

My feelings are that if Plagueis is unused then there will be very little connected to the PT. I understand the problems with the PT but it's still gospel for me. It's still a huge part of Lucas' Star Wars. And so if this is disregarded and the ST becomes simply an extension of the OT, distancing itself from the PT, then I will simply view it on the level of a fan film series - albeit a very well made one.

 

I really expected better of you master_shaitan, so what you are saying is that there is absolutely no story possibility that could be good without Plagueis, you have thought of every possible story that the screenwriters might come up, every SINGLE one and they are ALL bad. Even if in the end you think Plagueis would have been better, there is no good alternative even if not as good in your mind.

Is that what you're saying? Also, are you of the mind as are some of the other posters that any other possibility is literally as ridiculous as Mickey Mouse being Snoke? Is this entire thread just an echo chamber of Plagueis fans parroting each others ideas without any type of objectivity?

 

No, it could be a great story. A great character. A great film. But if it ain't DP then I can't see how they will tie these films to the PT. And I fear that it will leave holes and contradictions - maybe not to the average viewer but to a obsessed cherry picker like me.

I've asked people so many times to come up with a character that isn't Plagueis but who fills the gap as well and I'm yet to get anything like a decent response. So I think my fears are justified in that sense.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2016 ---

I should add that I am a PT fan in that I love the Star Wars story so naturally I want it to tie in together. Plagueis could do that beautifully.

 

i think it would be a nice way to give a small nod to the PT for PT fans.
i'd rather they clean-slated it, but it won't make me cranky if they don't.
fair is fair and like it or not, the PT is canon, so might as well salvage what can be salvaged from it.
and i don't mean that disparagingly. well, not in a mean way anyway.

 

People simply dont understand the significance of the problem. Thats why they coined name Plagueites.

I will reveal here the name of first Plagueite, the Grand Master of Plagueites.

His name is George Lucas.

He struggled for years about making ,or not ,sequel trilogy. He had only one big problem. Problem of main Villain in sequel trilogy.
Sith have been destroyed. There is no place for plausible villain anymore, at least not for one that will be as powerfull as Palpatine. Any other pop-up villain is to weak for the story line of one Star Wars. Any other strong villain in a rank of Palpatine is not plausible in Star Wars Universe.And without strong plausible villain, there is no Star Wars.

The movie worths as much as its main villain worths.

By the end of filming of prequel trilogy around preparations for ep III, however, Lucas decided to left a foundation for eventual sequel trilogy by resolving main problem of villain in eventual sequel trilogy one day. He introduced genial story of Darth Plagueis the Wise, a master of Palpatine, who was assasined by Palpatine, but he introduced his traits that are plausibly leaving space for his eventual return.

 

In a universe of possibility the only "plausible" answer is Plagueis? Really?
You guys kind of pidgeonhole Snoke too much. Everyone you ask someone to present a possible non Plagueis archetype you impose strict rules like this:

"Give me a better option than Plagueis that:

Binds all nine movies together

Is intimately intertwined with the skywalkers,

Explains why he is steeped in Dark side knowledge,

Wants immortality

Explains his inactivity during the previous six films"

Etc, etc

Well, Snoke doesn't have to do any of those things. They are things that you want based on what very little we know about the character. Just because we as fans want certain things to happen, it doesn't mean that he story has to fit in our narrow views.

Here on our single planet we have countless legends, religions, myths, historical figures and secret societies. Hundreds of thousands if not millions.

Would you say Emperor Nero of Rome doesn't make for a compelling villain because his story doesn't tie in with Dracula? Or that Odin isn't as powerful as Zeus because they are of differing religions?

How much bigger is the Star Wars universe? And as all the new canon keeps trying to ram down our throats: there are many views and religions in the universe.

They can literally go anywhere they want with Snoke. And there are limitless great story possibilities for the character. We need to stop trying to force Snoke into our wants and desires. Until we have more info there is nothing that is definitive for Snoke being Plaguies that also can't be explained by a new character.

Start a Twitter campaign to Rian Johnson, Leland or Pablo and maybe we'll get a definitive answer.

Or just wait for the reliable Episode 8 leaks

 

In your opinion he doesn't have to do those things. But for me, he does. I think a lot of people don't care if he does these things because they don't like the PT. Well, to me the PT is canonised, gospel Star Wars straight from the mind of the creator. By all means create great new villains for the standalone films, but if you want a satisfying mythology that connects 1-9 then the villain of the ST should be a massive part of that. The man who created Anakin. The man who trained The Emperor. The man who could actually cheat death - something all Sith aspired to but failed to achieve. The literal "plague" of the Skywalkers who is the source of all their pain and only with his destruction can there truly be peace. It's clean. It's satisfying. It ADDS to the PT as well as connects to it. I personally just won't find some retconned new super villain satisfying as part of the saga films.

Mixing mythologies isn't an argument against the need to have a connection from start to finish within an individual mythology. Each step has to mean something and should relate to the beginning and the end. No, The Lord of the RIngs doesn't require Hercules to come into it. But it does require a chief villain to run through the stories that came before and into the forefront of the LOTR trilogy. If you just have new villain after new vilain it cheapens the mythology. Sure, Disney might go down this route and abuse the mythology to make it nothing more than a cash cow. But I hope they don't. I hope they stay true to the saga films' mythological underpinning. Lucas created a superb myth about the rise and fall of Darth Vader. Sure, he was the one to decide to continue it but it appears he had a story that would do that and further the mythology. My fear is that Disney are playing the short game. Just trying to make popular movies, one at a time, without their eyes on the prize and turning a rich and satisfying mythological tale into a cheap, vacuous sci-fi.

Yet we're still focusing on the Skywalker story. And people are largely hoping Rey is Luke's daughter! The Star Wars universe is big but that doesn't mean the central story can't be made of a few key players.

They can for sure, but like I say - I see no way beyond Plagueis of making Snoke feel like a true part of Star Wars - someone with a real place in one story made into 9 films.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2016 ---

I've tweeted Rian Johnson and Pablo asking them if it is confirmed that Snoke is not Plagueis. I then directed Johnson to this thread, pleading with him to make Snoke Plagueis.

This is *not* gonna work.