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Does anyone care about the characters that are left for Episode IX?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by VOODOO, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    the first time i left the movie theatre after watching TLJ, i was angry.
    the film is intentionally challenging. we either come around to it or we don't.
    not because of intelligence or lemming-like acceptance, but because we are invited to sort it out for ourselves.

    i still have lingering angerfrustration (and when i watch the film i still get mad), but mostly, i feel hopeful.
    Luke was hopeful. Leia's hope is renewed, and she passes that on to Rey.
    i'm going to hold onto that.
    because at the end of the day how i feel about this film is a choice.
     
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  2. VOODOO

    VOODOO Rebel General

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    I hated it when I walked out of the theatre and I hate it even more now.
    Absolutely hated what this film did with Luke.
     
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  3. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    E9 needs to fix Luke Skywalker, but it's going to be difficult, and it's not clear that LFL thinks it's even necessary.
     
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  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    No fixing. Work with what you got. There will always people who dislike stuff.
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    You mean made a god?
     
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  6. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    It isn't. After the events of TLJ he has solidified his status as the greatest hero of the Galaxy, maybe even the greatest hero in the history of the Galaxy. What kind of "fix" does that necessitate for?
     
    #306 Pawek_13, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  7. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    <3 Luke is perfect! :)
     
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  8. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    Disliking is different than a poorly constructed narrative. They botched Luke's character, and it needs to be fixed, but it's difficult to say what they'll decide to do.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    What was poorly constructed about the narrative?
    How was he botched?
     
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  10. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    Rian Johnson ignored Luke's growth and gained wisdom in ESB and ROTJ and against the principles of cause and effect, repeated Luke's previous character arc because it suited his narrative purposes. That's the essence of poor narrative construction -- monkeying around with the story just to suit your own purposes.

    There were ways for them to challenge Luke's character that fit his previous character development, but they didn't choose them.

    So this isn't an issue of like or dislike, as some like to frame it. It's a clear example of ignoring the established story.

    We're going off topic here though, so I'll add: I still care about Rey and even Kylo Ren. But we need more story. Another sin of the previous episodes is lack of backstory. I want to care about Finn too, but he's another character that lacks strong development. Like Luke, Rian again turned Finn into someone who wanted to run, who then decided to stay and fight.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    No he didn't. Luke faced failure and blame unlike in the OT. Luke was actually at fault (in his mind) for the fall of Ben Solo.
    He wasn't at fault for the fall of Anakin Skywalker. There are different sorts of issues with Luke in these moments.
    Luke can grow but he still has to be Luke. Luke is and always will be impulsive. It's integral to the characterization of Luke Skywalker.

    Notice the change in Luke when Vader threatens Leia.
    He goes from stoic to uncontrolled.
    He violently wails at Vader letting his fear take over.
    He realizes this is wrong. He's failing. He stops. Throws his lightsaber away and refuses to fight. (PACIFISM)

    In TLJ we see the Luke/Ben confrontation 3 times.
    Once as Luke wants it to have been (removing his faults)
    Once as Kylo remembers it (Angry violent Luke attacking)
    Once as we are to perceive as the truth when no lies make sense (Luke ignites but never does anything)
    The third time is the most Luke Skywalker thing you could expect. He's still impulsive at the thought of his friends and family being in danger while knowing the danger lies right before him. Unlike in ROTJ (which is the Luke Kylo envisions) he never moves to attack just merely feels the glancing urge to protect. Only Ben wakes up and feels a tad different about it.
    And when he finally confronts Kylo Ren, he isn't even there and never lays a blow on Kylo Ren. (PACIFISM)

    Two different issues. One where Luke overcomes the failings of others through his own flaws and one where he has to confront his own failings through the flaws of others. They are more or less mirrored stories.

    That is growth without abandoning the nature of Luke Skywalker. That is how you build deep characters who are not flawless action heroes but humans who overcome their own flaws to achieve greatness.

    Human growth isn't a straight line forward. It's jagged. Full of setbacks and detours. Luke is not a superhuman possessing near omnipotence like he was in some EU stories. And the story is 100% better for it.
     
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  12. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    What @RayloRancor said. Also, Luke is not particularly wise in the OT until he fianlly overcomes his brashness and chose pacifism as the route to twarth the Emperor.

    In ESB Luke goes against wisdom, risking everything to try (and fail) to rescue his friends (his friends largely rescues themselves, with the help of Lando, and Luke has no impact on this other than perhaps as a disctraction for Vader).

    In RotJ, Luke is cocky as hell and borderlining unbarable in his arrogance at times (Mark Hamill's acting range is quite good indeed, but it is more subtle than say, Harrison Ford's).

    Luke, although he has a LOT of heart, demonstrates very little wisdom in the OT (how many teenagers/early-20-ers do?), and to be fair he doesn't show too much of it in TLJ either, although there's a fair bit there (and he's a broken man at this point in the character arc, which makes him a relatable underdog again which he would hardly have been as Super-Luke).

    Luke overcoming his failures (or, learning from them as Yoda would have framed it) is exactly what makes him a great character and role model in TLJ, and why this film has such a powerful emotional current; and Luke's pacifistic self-sacrifice at the end is the most heroic moment we've seen in Star Wars. It is only NOW that Luke can go on to become a hero of legend to inspire generations to come (something he would not do had Rian Johnson instead portayed him as a Super-Luke killer of thousands; then he would just remain a war hero for one side and it would, to some extent, repeat his victory in ANH which was also the killing of thousands or millions. This NEW Luke could inspire every individual personally (i.e. role model who overcomes his failings) and every faction (i.e. role model for pacifism) to make the galaxy a better place for all.

    Luke in TLJ is the best thing yet to happen to Star Wars, beyond Star Wars happening in the first Place!
     
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  13. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    (LOL! I totally called you "RayloRancor" above, @RoyleRancor :oops: ).
     
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  14. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    Very argued, folks, but I think you understate 1) the importance of Luke laying his saber down and 2) the next 35 years that pass between E6 and E7.

    Yes, I agree with the idea that character arcs can zig and zag, and yet this is less true in genre storytelling, where once characters make a significant change, it's usually treated as a stable step forward. In literary storytelling and serious drama, like Chekhov's stories, characters often do backslide into previous bad habits, but the important thing to understand here is that Chekhov's kind of storytelling is different from Star Wars -- not always or completely, but in general entertainment storytelling is usually less concerned with having heroes backslide.

    The real question we have to ask are what are the purposes of backsliding? Does it always benefit the story? Is it necessary for every character? The answer for the last two is No, and the answer for the first is, It depends.

    My answer on the question of whether Luke should have remained "impulsive" for 35 years after apparently symbolically rejecting his impulsiveness by laying his saber down (here impulsiveness is equated with violent action, not pacifism) is no. In terms of cause and effect and probability, it does not make narrative sense for an experienced Jedi Master, who gained important wisdom 35 years earlier, to not grow and progress, and certainly to overcome any impulsiveness that is a sign of youth and inexperience, not genetic makeup.

    There were more interesting flaws to explore in a more organic treatment of Luke. For example, his pacifism. My approach to Luke would be to focus on the organic flaws that still existed, and could likely persist, after E6. His great success by laying his saber down would have been much more interesting and different to explore than youthful impulsiveness in an old Jedi Master.

    Luke's pacifism could have led him to create another Jedi Order that was only based on defense, or they may have even been non-violent. And we could have explored how the darkside could exploit these problems and destroy Luke's Order. So we could have ended up with an interesting parallel to TPM rather than making the illogical leap that old Luke's great flaw is still the same one, impulsiveness.

    An interesting divergence from the PT Jedi could have been how Luke was able to keep the Jedi out of war -- that helped lead the PT Jedi to their destruction -- and yet keeping the Jedi out of war could have led to the destruction of the Republic, a new Empire, and the destruction of the Jedi again. This would be a superior approach to what we have because now the story is connected to old themes and we're asking big questions like, is it even possible for the Jedi to take a course of action that keeps the Republic and galaxy absolutely stable? Or maybe there's no realistic way to do it, and good and evil are just an on-going, even absurd, cycle.
     
    #314 Dra---, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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