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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    *Correction:

    Han, Luke and Leia fighting the Empire again, with the same exact methods, with the same exact tech and ships, within the exact same mottled "used-future" setting despite 30 years of New Republic prosperity, with the exact same absence of the Republic or Jedi Order, in the same sequence of events (chasing a droid holding a vital piece of info, destroying a planet-destroying Super-weapon, being discovered and fleeing their base, etc.).
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Han, Luke and Leia fighting an Emperor/Darth Vader enemy in Snoke/Kylo Ren, as a Skywalker was seduced to the Darkside again.
     
  3. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    ^This honestly wouldn't be bad in isolation, on the condition that every derivative element I mentioned (Rebels vs Empire, Extinct Jedi, Used Future Setting, etc.) didn't apply, so that this Vader repeat happened within the folds of a completely new and unique conflict and setting. The reason I bring this up is because that's exactly what we got in the EU with Darth Caedus, the Skywalker descendent who was a Jedi-turned Dark Sider who waged a new war against the galaxy, but with completely different motives to Vader, surrounded by a setting and conflict vastly different than the OT, and without all of the tired motifs of Vader's character (swearing allegiance to a shadowy disfigured Sith Lord, having characters work exhaustively to redeem him, etc). Something as creative and original could've been done with the setting around Kylo Ren to make his Vader similarities easier to swallow. But just like everything else, it's derivitive and cribbing 1:1 details and story beats from previous films without any nuance or shame.

    Of course, this whole problem could've been avoided altogether if LFL had opted to go an entirely different route with their new villain besides "Vader 2.0 100% Original Character Do Not Steal", but that kind of expectation for creativity is a bit like expecting an expecting North Korean missile test.
     
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  4. Son Of A Sith

    Son Of A Sith Rebel General

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    Not at all, even in the least bit!

    @Ruralfarmboy is exactly correct! Just look to the history of our own world and you'll see the fallacy in your argument.

    The more modern examples given by RFB of WWI/WWII or Viet Nam/Korean War are only the tip of the iceberg! These cycles date back millennia, to the days of the Roman Empire, Greece, Egypt and even Babylon! I'm sure it goes back even farther than that... such as into the history we have lost to the enemy known as Time, like Atlantis and Lumeria! Chances are that it's much deeper and goes far beyond even our material world or petty wars!

    What about the personal 'battles' you've experience through this life of yours thus far? Have your past personal victories in your younger years become meaningless now because of your more current triumphs? I think not!

    It's applicable on so many different levels, whether fictional or non-fictional, microcosmic or macrocosmic, spiritual or material, individually or collectively!

    #OUROBOROS #PHOENIX #CYCLIC


    On a side note, I seriously love your username @VOODOO


    "Ride the Tide"

    -SOAS
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    That was one of Lucas' original theme interests philosophically.
    Actually, THE main theme Lucas has said that he wrote Star Wars around to explore was to examine the question: are we able to break free from our inherited cycles, or are we doomed to repeat them - to be trapped in the same events over and over with only slight differences in the nuance, but the core direction coming out the same?

    This is one reason he designed the chiasmus ("poetic") narrative structure.

    What so many call "rehashing" is fully intentional and vital to the core ontological exploration of the Star Wars saga, for how do you explore that theme mythically without refraining the same events and tones?

    IX will answer the question.
    Are we stuck, or can we break free?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Son Of A Sith

    Son Of A Sith Rebel General

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    AWESOME POST!

    As far as the mythology of Star Wars is concerned, my guess would be that we are going to continue to see the galaxy 'stuck' in the cycle... at least for Episode IX and one more trilogy of movies (Episodes X-XII). I know that LucasFilm has stated that Episode IX is going to be the end of the 'Skywalker Saga' and all, but I'm not so sure about that... it may just be clever wordplay for marketing purposes.

    I think the full stories of the three new main characters (Rey, Finn and Kylo) are much longer than what they can fit into a single remaining movie. They are all young characters, I doubt Episode IX is going to time jump and end with them all being old/dead. For that reason alone I would expect more movies in the eventual future, although I also expect them to take a somewhat long-ish break between VII-IX and X-XII (8-10yrs, perhaps?). As for the whole end of the 'Skywalker Saga', there are really only a couple options to work with... Either they kill off Kylo Ren along with his mother (Leia), who are the only two Skywalker's remaining, which ends the bloodline once and for all (and any future movies), or like I said before... it's a marketing ploy and the next sequel trilogy is going to be known as the 'Solo Saga', focusing on Ben Solo and his legacy/offspring. Along with providing the further adventures/histories of Rey, Finn and possibly Poe as well. I think it'll be the latter... especially with the franchise now being own by Disney!

    SIDE NOTE: I personally hope that Rey turns Kylo back to the Light and Ben Solo/Rey have children, then do what Luke attempted to do and start a New Jedi Order (Successfully). I would like to also see Finn become a Jedi and help to teach a new generation of Jedi! All of this would need another trilogy to be told, of course. But I think it would redeem both Anakin's and Luke's past failures, not to mention the Jedi Order as a whole! As for Poe, I think it would be poetic (Pun intended!) for him to die in Episode IX the way Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in ROTJ... self-sacrifice for the greater good, Kamikaze-style! It would also be a nice nod to what Holdo did in TLJ, showing that he really has learned to become a 'selfless leader'. All hopeful thinking!

    Either way it goes, I'd prefer more movies beyond Episode IX continuing the same timeline, regardless of the characters. Why? Simple, really. It's due to my personal beliefs and more specifically, my answer to the question you pose... Are we stuck, or can we break free? My answer is BOTH. The material realm/world is comprised of never-ending perpetual cycles, forever repeating itself. I think of it as a 'playground' of sorts, a giant merry-go-round! It's this material environment in which we currently operate that will always be cyclically 'stuck', so to speak. Not us! As individual spiritual entities, we can break free from the cycle(s) on a personal level, though it's possible that it may take more than one life-time of learning to do so (Reincarnation). Once we've achieved this feat, at last we'll be truly free... whatever it is that actually means! (I have my theories, indeed!)

    This is why I think there should always be a continuation of stories in the Star Wars Universe, because even if every single one of the characters we've ever known and loved happens to die... the galaxy shall continue to live on, in all it's cyclically-doomed and dualistic glory!

    Unless of course all life is completely wiped out, or... the material realm is entirely eradicated! Which I personally do not think is possible!

    Even if it is... I'm sure it would all just start over again! The cycle continues... or does it?

    #PHILOSOPHY


    "Ride the Tide"

    -SOAS
     
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  7. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    The thing is that if you look at all the movies you like, they're pretty much the same stories. It's just being dressed in a different costume. Everyone likes the Marvel movies right? Well if you look at them, they're all pretty much the same movie being dressed in a different costume with a different name. If you listen to music, you'll hear repetition. If you read poetry, you'll find, repetition. If you look at life you'll see, repetition. We all know Star Wars is poetic in structure. It's a saga. Why would anyone expect a poetic structure to suddenly go veering off into something completely unlike what has come before? It's like your expectations aren't based on what came before. Who criticizes a song at the third stanza for "being derivative"? It's supposed to be that way. It's like criticizing a poem for having the same rhyme structure at the end as it did at the beginning. Of course it does. Why would anyone expect anything different? It doesn't make sense.

    If a person is disappointed with the sequels for being like the story that came before, are they also disappointed with the Marvel franchise for telling the same story like, twenty times in a row? Disappointed with every movie out there for being, like movies that came before? Disappointed with music for sounding the same as that other music that came before it? Disappointed with history itself? I mean even the first Star Wars movie was itself, derivative of another story that came before it. I guess my question is, where are all of these expectations and this disappointment when it comes to, everything besides a Star Wars movie? Which itself is weird because, again, we already know Star Wars is supposed to "rhyme" so the "expectations" don't just, not make sense, they even run counter to what is established and should be informing the expectations.

    It doesn't make sense is what I'm saying. Seems, forced. Seems like poorly thought-out manufactured criticism that only applies to one franchise but is freely ignored in all others.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    That's mostly my confusion.

    Most everything I've read that people say they would have rather happened causes me to recoil in disgust because it would be like hearing Beethoven's 5th symphony and right at the thematic reprise of the recapitulation near the end, it suddenly switched into Tool.

    Just...what?

    Yeah, I like Tool as well, but that's not what belongs at the reprisal point, in the recapitulation, of the symphony's themes from each of the four movements.

    That's where we're at right now; at the Star Wars Skywalker Saga's recapitulation.

    We're not at the third album of a band where you can go ahead and be a bit upset if it's a second album in a row of remixes of the first album.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 21, 2018 ---
    Glad you liked it. :)

    I'll be honest, I didn't read your post because I quickly saw that you were pondering what will happen, and I have a strict self-rule of never thinking about what happens next.

    Because if even any shadow of it does, I'll be pissed because it's not a surprise.

    Sorry, I mean no offense. It's just my funky way.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    I think almost everyone would love to see a restoration of the Jedi Order (maybe with some changes), but it sure seemed like the Jedi were already returning - I mean, the movie was called “Return of the Jedi.” With Disney taking away this part of the story just to retell it, it almost seems like IX would have to be called something like “The Actual Return of The Jedi.”

    If I were making the ST, I would have started with the Jedi Order already restored or partly restored. Maybe they could have had a conflict within the Jedi that splits them into multiple factions. I feel like this would have been more interesting than just putting the Sith on a Xerox machine.
     
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  10. Son Of A Sith

    Son Of A Sith Rebel General

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    Bummer. At least you were honest, though. No offense taken!

    That is quite a statement.

    Does this rule of yours strictly apply to only Star Wars/entertainment, or do you apply it to everything else in your life as well?

    Regardless… no need to be apologetic, to each their own!


    I’m glad that’s something most of us would all agree on!

    The Jedi are returning, and continue to be in the process of returning. ROTJ was just the starting point. The way I see it… we are actually still in the early developmental stages of said return, witnessing it as it happens! It makes sense that such a thing would surely not be instantaneous, especially since it was all on the shoulders of a single person (Luke Skywalker). Given all the various circumstances, it would take a decent amount of time for just one person to rebuild the Jedi Order completely. There are so many factors involved, beyond it being just Luke. Not only did he have to start from scratch, he clearly had to deal with outside forces specifically working against him.

    Luke actually did pretty great, all considered! He obtained the remnants of the Great Tree along with other Jedi artifacts/lore, which included locating Jocasta Nu’s school, began training his sister, built a new secret temple, sought out a dozen force-sensitive individuals and then began to train them as his students, all within less than thirty years or so!

    Master Skywalker was well on his way to successfully establishing a New Jedi Order; from a certain point of view… it could actually be argued that he did in fact succeed. Even after Snoke, with the help of Kylo Ren, destroyed much of the progress Luke had made, he still managed to located the First Jedi Temple, assembled the Sacred Jedi Texts (Effectively creating a new Jedi Library) and started training yet another apprentice who is destined to finish what he began with his foundational knowledge helping her along the way.

    This is how real life works, stuff gets in our way and we often encounter a multitude of setbacks in the things we strive to accomplish. Some are minor, others are major… it’s on us to either keep going against all odds, or simply give up and abandon hope. That’s exactly what Luke had to face, and in the end, he chose not to give up hope!

    Disney didn’t take away any part of the story, it’s still there… they just didn’t show you all of it on screen.

    As far as your title for Episode IX... “Continuation of the Returning Jedi” or something similar would be much more fitting! ;)

    Perhaps… “Dawn of the New Order”

    That’s exactly what happened! Luke restored it, and then there was a conflict within that partly destroyed it! There was even a splitting of factions, multiple times in fact. You got exactly what you wanted, just not the way you wanted it (i.e. seeing it all on screen).

    In regards to Xeroxing; neither Snoke, nor Kylo Ren are technically Sith… but I get what you mean! Definite similarities, indeed.


    “Ride the Tide”

    -SOAS
     
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  11. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel General

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    I think it is obvious that Disney should have not rushed this trilogy.
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Just films.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    "The Jedi" in "Return of the Jedi" is a reference to Anakin Skywalker, right? It was meaning his return. The only way Disney could "take away" the ending of RotJ is if Darth Vader came back.
     
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  15. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    That's an interesting take, but I'm going to have to disagree. What happened in the ST is that a group of "anti-Jedi" (whether you call them "Sith" or "Whatever Snoke Is") turned against the Jedi with the sole focus of opposing the Jedi and supporting evil. In my opinion, this is too similar to what happened in 1-6. What I was proposing a disagreement among Jedi where no one is just taking up the automatic role of "Jedi hater," and instead they have some specific thing they are fighting for besides just evil.

    One idea I had was a conflict over whether some Dark Side powers could be incorporated into the Light Side now that the Force has been balanced.
     
  16. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    I think that is exactly correct. I certainly cannot help but wonder how much different (better) these films could have been if they had let the Oscar winning writer take the time he needed to craft a story worth telling.
     
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  17. Son Of A Sith

    Son Of A Sith Rebel General

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    Your response is much appreciated!

    The thing is though, that's pretty much what Ben Solo/Kylo Ren had in mind! It seems to be the very reason he not only left Luke's Jedi Order, but also the reason he killed Snoke as well.

    "It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels. Let it all die."

    "We can rule together and bring a New Order to the galaxy."

    -Ben Solo/Kylo Ren

    I present these two quotes as proof of the new generation fighting for 'some specific thing' besides just evil. Kylo Ren may be a lot of things (MONSTER!), but he definitely doesn't seem to be evil. At least not in the traditional sense of the word. Sure, he's done some pretty messed up stuff... but 'evil' does not quite properly describe his actions. I certainly do not consider him to be evil, and I highly doubt he considers himself to be evil either!


    I really like this concept as well! But again, this is pretty much exactly what Kylo is working towards! He uses both the Lightside and the Darkside of the Force, so chances are, this 'New Order' he speaks of would be a blend of both philosophies... resulting in a 'balanced' Order! That's the vibe I get from him when I truly consider his character... including both his words, and his actions.

    As for the 'multiple factions' I spoke of... Kylo's faction is obviously one of them, but the other is Rey! Just like Ben Solo disagreed with Luke on how the Order should operate, Rey's opinion of what the order should be differed as well! She clearly did not agree with Luke either, and she clearly was willing to flirt with the Darkside on multiple occasions. Not only literally with Kylo, but also during her first lesson with Luke, along with her experience in the Darkside cave on Ahch-To! So even though we know a bit less about how she would personally run things if she was in-charge, I think it is safe to say that she might be more willing to blend both philosophies as well! Which in my opinion is why they would make the perfect match, for neither of them seem to support the 'absolute' methodology of the Jedi and Sith.

    Just some things for you to consider!

    Also, this is honestly why I love and cherish TLJ so much! It is incredibly deep and thought-provoking to me! The characters aren't just cut-and-dry, they are shown to be very complex and extremely interesting! Even the Legacy characters were given so much more substance! J.J. Abrams absolutely nailed that with Han Solo in The Force Awakens, and Rian Johnson really took it to the next level in The Last Jedi... especially with Luke, Leia, Kylo and Rey! He even managed to do the same with both Poe and Finn, which I was pleasantly surprised with!


    "Ride the Tide"

    -SOAS
     
  18. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    You might like my symmetry of the last jedi thread.
    Sorry, would write more - have thoughts, but I am high after surgery atm, so this do?
    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/the-symmetry-of-the-last-jedi.53692/

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Alright, I’ve heard the “rhyming” excuse for the ST’s lack of originality more times than I can count, so I’m going to add my two cents to the matter.

    “Narrative rhyming” is only effective, at least to me, when literally everything else is different. Seeing similar scenarios or situations play out from a previous story can work when it is the only familiar thing lifted from the previous story—so that the rhyming itself has more impact. Spotting a familiar motif or scenario in an otherwise drastically-different work should be like finding a gold nugget in a bed of normal rock, a rewarding little nod to something familiar whilst exploring uncharted and unfamiliar territory.

    As an example: In ROTS, one of the key fight scenes is between Anakin and Dooku on the observation deck of the Invisible Hand, with Palpatine observing from his chair. I didn’t realize this till many viewings later, but this scene is actually meant to rhyme with the duel between Luke and Vader in ROTJ. Now, comparing the two rhyming scenes, the differences between them is staggering: the setting is different, the reason the hero is engaged in this duel is different, and the conflict and characters surrounding this moment are drastically different, thanks to the PT effectively setting itself apart from the OT in all of those categories. But the most important difference is the moment in which the two similar scenes diverge: the ultimate decision of the hero. Luke and Anakin are placed in the exact same situation where they have their respective enemies on their knees, and are tempted to give into the Dark Side and give into their more callous urges. The scene shows that unlike Luke, who was strong enough to overcome his Dark Side urges and restrain himself, Anakin gives in and beheads Dooku on the spot. We two heroes engage in a lightly-similar scene, surrounded by wildly-different context and setting, engaging in the same trial and reaching different outcomes...outcomes determined by who they are as characters, which the previous two films exhaustively spent establishing.

    This is an effective sequence of “rhyming.” It’s nowhere near as blatant as having the exact same scene, with the exact same stakes, seated within the exact same galactic conflict with the same two factions of Rebel and Empire, with the exact same stakes pushing characters into the exact same motives—no, it doesn’t do any of those things, because that wouldn’t be rhyming, it would be copying. What this scene serves to do is to recreate a SIMILAR scenario with just about everything around it from context to setting changed to be entirely different. It has enough rigid differences and elements in place surrounding the one or two elements that rhyme, so that it remains its own unique and distinct story. Because honestly ask yourself: outside of mirroring the ROTJ duel (and subtly enough to keep me from noticing on the first few viewings), ask yourself: how else does ROTS resemble the OT films in any way? The answer, is not at all. The plot, stakes, drama, tone, themes, conflict and aesthetics aren’t cribbed at all from the OT films. ROTS is still 100% its own films, with whatever familiar elements it has in common with the OT buried beneath unique elements it retains as its own story, with only some familiar rhyming with the OT if you squint at it.

    The ST isn’t rhyming with lines from the OT—it’s copy and pasting everything. The setting is the exact same. The conflict is the exact same. The aesthetic is the exact same. The scenarios are the exact same. Even the characters are servicing similar roles to the likes of Luke, Vader and Palpatine, placed in almost the exact same scenarios to communicate the same themes. The new films don’t do nearly enough to distinguish themselves from the OT, so when it recreates scenes or tension from the OT, it isn’t rhyming...it’s replicating it exactly. It’s no longer rhyming when you’re literally lifting an entire stanza with the same wording, rhythm and symmetry as before, any more than it’s ‘citing’ to copy-paste an entire article from Wikipedia to your school essay.

    And the suffocating over-use of “rhyming” (if you can even call it that) only reeks of the fundamental problem plaguing this new trilogy: a lack of creativity. The only reason the writers and directors are pilfering the OT’s corpse is because they can’t create enough distinct material themselves. They can’t think of a new conflict, so they just do Rebels and Empire again. They can’t think of anything to do with a bunch of Jedi in the new era, so they make them borderline extinct again. They can’t think of unique scenarios to put the new characters in, so the writers just have them undergo similar arcs and narrative fulfillment of Luke, Vader and Palpatine. The “rhyming” isn’t done in the way Lucas had the ROTJ duel and the ROTS duel rhyme...to bury a mirroring scenario in a completely different film to communicate a theme of where characters diverge in their choices or destiny. No, there are no higher themes or creative alternate paths, at least none that warrant how suffocatingly-similar they’ve made these films to the OT thus far. And I don’t want to hear fluff about how “the mountain of copied scenarios and motifs will lead to something different in Episode 9, you just have to wait.” That’s absolute rubbish. We are two films into this trilogy, with one more before it concludes. The opportunity to make the films as unique as possible with only some mild rhyming was at the beginning of this trilogy, not in its final film.

    So if anyone wants to delude themselves by excusing the shameless copy-paste job inflicted on this trilogy by calling it “rhyming”, understand that by your logic, it would be completely excusable for future trilogies to continue aping the OT....because if you’re okay with it being done now to these current films, you should be just fine with the lack of creativity stretching out to all of the future Star Wars films under Disney’s roof.

    Because, hey, as long as it’s exactly like the OT, it must be good, right? It ‘rhymes.’
     
    #159 Darth_Nobunaga, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  20. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    I agree with @Darth_Nobunaga .

    If you want to look at it in terms of "rhyming," in my opinion the ST is reminiscent of the song "That Girl":
    No matter who you are or what you do
    She knows how to click in everything you do

    You rhymed "do" with "do."
     
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