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Figuring out why I dislike TLJ.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, May 13, 2018.

  1. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    I don't get how him learning from the hardships of his youth and actually internalizing the lessons of his mentors makes him godlike. If those are the standards of a mythic being, then I guess Rey surpassed him the moment she started utilizing mind control after only being aware of the Force for two minutes.
     
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  2. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    I don't own the film, don't plan on buying it. Rian Johnson took some risks and alienated half of us. Interest in Solo in nosediving, but yeah, no outrage at all. Our feelings aren't valid. It's not that Solo is being boycotted or anything, its just the interest in Star Wars just isn't what it was pre TLJ IMO.
     
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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    Luke was never a god in the OT and he has never been portrayed that he could never make a mistake. But it had to be one in line with his character like maybe only training his students in a non violent way or trusting some former evil guy who betrays him in the end etc. There are million ways for a creative writer to do it but keep Luke's core intact + introducing the newbies. The way Rian did it was to make Luke look like a creepy old guy while Kylo should be portrayed as poor little kid. :eek:
     
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  4. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    Why would either of the two options you've just produced give him a reason to be out of the picture for the last several years searching, by himself, for the first Jedi temple?
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    They don't. The fact is, Rian basically had only a handful of outs with the corner JJ put him in with Luke.

    1. Luke couldn't just be out and about. So why he was gone and not an active part of the Resistance had to be severe.
    (like seeing what he saw in Ben, feeling responsible for his turn)

    2. He's clearly isolated. So why he's not fighting has to also have a level of desire to be isolated and not found. Guilt, shame, fear....
    (Clearly felt guilt and shame. Felt like ending the Jedi was the only way to end the cycle)

    3. He didn't come back at Han's death. Why not? Why didn't he show up with the force rising in Rey? Did he just not care?
    (He cut himself off from the force and couldn't sense any of it)
     
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  6. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    szenario 1 (Luke becoming pacifist after ROTJ): Luke learned the Jedi's failure because they became more soldiers than guardians. Then he teached new students in weaponless way (including troubled Ben). Something went wrong and a manipulator tricks even Luke. This one works for Snoke who already worked on Ben. Luke then fails somehow in Ben's eyes and cannot save someone close to Ben, Luke or the Solo family. Or several of Luke's students are simply killed in a brutal attack (supported by New Republic/pre First Order supporters) .Luke realizes his new weaponless way of Jedi teachings (which worked for saving his father) did not work out this time, so he tries to find the first Jedi temple to find a balance between fighting and peace. The first Jedi temple is a starting point, where did the first Jedi come from and what made them different from Republic Jedi.

    szenario 2 (Luke forming Jedi in traditional way): Luke follows Obi-Wan's and Yoda's ways of building up new Jedi. (quite much the same and a manipulator interrupts his attempts. Snoke's puppet (could be already Ben or someone else) gains Luke trust and Luke let him train some of his new Jedi. But he leads them more and more to the dark side (a little bit like Snape from Harry Potter). This also leads to a tragedy in which both sides of Luke's academy are facing opposite sides in a conflict and the ruthless one wins. Luke is devastated and tries to find out why he failed in a similar way than his old masters did. So searching for the first Jedi temple to see how pre- Republic Jedi found balance.


    Just a few not worthy ideas of someone who has no idea of writing. ;)
     
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  7. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    There were plenty of directions he could have gone with the story. That's the point of continuing a story. You make blast up.

    Only a closed mind imagines only a handful of outs, and Rainy Johnston had that in spades. He can't imagine it going any other way, even when Mark Hamill himself had issues, because that's what he wanted to do with the character. His casting as a director and writer was the single biggest mistake this movie had. They needed to get someone that was good at writing Star Wars. I mean, the dude can't even get basic military stuff right, because he's never experienced or even researched it. His Resistance is led by absolute morons doing random things, up to and including Leia.
     
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  8. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I agree that Rian was put in a corner with Luke's character. But I feel Rian gave us a good redemption story. I loved Luke in both the Yoda scene and the Crate scene. We got a glimpse of the Luke we know and love.

    I really hope we learn more about the creative process behind these movies after episode 9 comes out. There's so much confusion about all of this is coming together.
     
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  9. redwinger

    redwinger Rebelscum

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    Wow. Of all the ways that bad writing can affect a viewer, and in this case, a long-time fan...

    Long story short, I hope that you'll remember that the ST isn't the end-all be-all of these stories. Don't forget that these are just big-budgeted fan-fictions gone awry, and that you or anyone can imagine better ones.

    Imagine a world where Luke asks Rey to give Kylo this lightsaber. 'When the time comes, let it go and let him have it.'

    You still get to keep your 'bloodline doesn't matter' idea by having her let that thing go and stand on her own merits. You now get real physical symbolism of Rey taking a small step towards 'letting go' of her attachment to the past.

    You get to plant a seed for drama with regards to 'Is this Luke's final gambit? Does he hope Kylo will change?' Or is it more for Rey's sake? Or both?

    You get to give Luke that additional layer of heroism, by displaying faith as it was displayed towards him via this macguffin.

    Imagine him accepting the lightsaber when she first presents it to him, then locking it away. Imagine the filmmakers using it to represent almost exactly the emotions you described in your post, and then letting it go in the end as described above.

    Don't let these badly told stories affect you too much.

    The good stories are still out there no matter what.
     
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  10. Cunir

    Cunir Rebel Trooper

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    I quite liked the movie and I didn’t mind Luke’s story — they left a lot of untold story there that they can explore in the novels and the marvel comics. The only thing I thought was a bit daft was leia getting sucked out of the ship and then flying through space. The way they treat Jedis and their powers in this new trilogy has completely changed from the original ones. In the past they had to train for years to do quite basic things, but now they are almost like superbeings, like gods. Anyone can move big things with very little training, they pick up a lightsaber and wield it like an expert — it took Luke ages to do all that stuff. It’s as if they’ve rewritten the underlying laws as to what’s possible. I think it was better the old way because it made them more ‘real’.
     
    #90 Cunir, May 27, 2018
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  11. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    I agree with several posters in this thread. RJ had almost limitless possibilities to work with and was not in any significant way boxed in by JJ. This thread has already come up with several alternatives - Luke could have cut himself off from the force for any number of reason (and maybe that’s why it awakened in Rey!). Frankly, even had RJ kept the same framework of his story it could have been executed in much better ways - did we really need Luke milking a sea cow? I’m very confident there were other ways to show even hermit Luke.
     
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  12. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel Commander

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    I don't get statements like this. I've seen clips of Luke in ANH and ESB where all he does is whine and complain. So I haven't a clue where people are coming up with the notion that Rian Johnson ruined him. He was negative from the get go.

     
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  13. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel General

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    I'll start by stating I'm not trying to troll anyone here. If you like or love TLJ, I'm happy for you. This is more about my emotional journey.

    For me though, I range from dislike to hate, depending on the day. With many questioning me how and why ect... I think I finally figured it out.

    I can't relate to Luke anymore.

    With all the talk (often refuted) that women couldn't relate to Luke and Han because they were male, TLJ made me not able to relate to Luke because of his reaction (and his decisions throughout the movie, except maybe the very end) to his fathers lightsaber. It just doesn't compute and I freely admit, that scene alone ruined all of it for me. I didn't have Luke on a pedestal, but he was someone who behaved like I would (or wished I would) in the OT. Now I can't.


    I think that TESB and ANH Luke are relatable, and I'm a female. They generally make sense; they use their brains; they're sincere and courageous without being too stupid. (Though Luke's plan to rescue the princess is risky.).

    And I can't relate to ROTJ Luke AT ALL anymore, lol. I've been looking at the logic of ROTJ's script, and it does not add up.

    If one compares the consistency between Empire and Jedi, Jedi is extremely, extremely inconsistent towards Empire, especially on Luke's end of things. There's only a few moments that really make any thematic sense to me (Luke getting genuinely worried that he's ruining the mission when he's senses Vader on the dreadnaught ship, leaving the Ewok story when Bespin is brought up, and realizing that he will become his father ala his mechanical hand). Really, that's it.

    TLJ made me not able to relate to Luke because of his reaction (and his decisions throughout the movie, except maybe the very end) to his fathers lightsaber.

    It's just a lightsaber, honestly. I think your focusing on the romanticism in ANH- "This is your father's lightsaber. He wanted you to have this when you were older."; "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age".

    Both of these statements conflict with retcons (Anakin's lightsaber was forceably taken from him; perhaps, Anakin and Vader were different persons and only Anakin wanted Luke to have it, not Vader, his actual father in TESB, though it seems unlikely.), practical use (the lightsaber being used to cut open a Taun-Taun innerds), and being subjected to ignomious circumstances (falling off of Cloud City). A lightsaber may be elegant, and it may be cool-looking. But it's a lightsaber.

    It just doesn't compute and I freely admit, that scene alone ruined all of it for me.

    So, this scene ruined the whole film because you thought that Luke wasn't honoring or revering his father through not caring about a lightsaber? I think he's well beyond inheriting and honoring his father's lightsaber at his age (, and I think that Vader would understand that Luke's outgrown it by now, especially if Luke already used it when he was older- a teen, and then Luke can decide what to do with it), especially if it's of not much practical value. He could probably sell it on the intergalactic ebay without batting an eye.

    Granted, he does symbolically care about it at the end of the film, anyway.

    (and his decisions throughout the movie, except maybe the very end)

    Because finally Luke wasn't accepting the poor reasons that Obi-Wan (and Yoda, to be honest) gave him. It's actually satisfying, even highly, that he's done with their [abuse, aloofness, and manipulation- i.e. "No, there is another"- a.k.a. Don't worry if he dies, we have someone else to replace him. Obi-Wan distinctly not interfering when Luke cries out for help, etc.]. Forget the Jedi cause if it's going to cause hurt and pain for the galaxy and escalate trouble. And forget the Jedi's cause since they were AWFUL towards you and didn't care about personal ties- just mechanically wanting to take the Emperor and Vader down, even if Vader was your only remaining relative in TESB.

    In ROTJ, Luke just nods his head (in a way) towards Yoda's and Obi-Wan's reasons "not ready for the burden" or "a certain point of view". Technically, both of them lied or gave shifty (avoidance- i.e. "Obi-Wan's apprentice"- not "your father") answers to Luke in TESB; ROTJ Luke is rather accepting of all this without much emotional response (without being told yet to suppress his emotions).

    the very end

    What is this action at the end? Luke standing for hope? Granted, he's displaying a bit of ROTJ Luke here (smirk for no reason; I guess brushing off the laser fire; being seen as invincible, which Kylo is deceived from, lol), which to be honest, I don't really appreciate. It's Luke being too arrogant and overpowered for no reason, and being in control of the situation. Thank goodness it's tampered down with logic and emotional gravitas, with some sort of consequence.

    What do you like about it? Luke confronting Kylo finally? Trying to be cool in a ROTJ/ Star Wars Obi-Wan sense?
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

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    Luke at the end of TLJ is the Luke purposefully designed to agitate the hell out of Kylo. It's not really Luke. It's a projection that plays on all of Kylo Ren's insecurities and short comings. Luke knows this. He's in all black, he's more youthful looking, like he would have when Kylo last saw him, he's using the legacy lightsaber that rejected Kylo...he's belittling Kylo because THAT is what drives Kylo insane. Even throwing in a little Han quip at him to make sure that the nail is driven in deep.

    The real Luke at the end of TLJ is the one who does the right thing in the end no matter what. The one who sacrifices himself to save who and what he loves. Not destroying what he hates.
     
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  15. The Birdwatcher

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    Not destroying what he hates.

    I still don't know how to feel about this line, which I think stems from both Yoda's teaching in TESB- (A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack) and Luke's odd reactions to encountering evil in ROTJ. Also, there's misunderstandings with Obi-Wan in ANH. Obi-Wan was just using an "alternative to fighting" by not striking Vader immediately down; he wasn't avoiding destroying what he hates by letting Vader kill him. In addition, Obi-Wan was planning to become a force ghost and to distract Vader by having Vader strike him down.

    I think people are so opposed about killing the bad guy when most of the bad guys knew what they had with signing up for with the Empire.

    You destroy what you hate- because that's evil. You're hating the evil. If you don't hate the evil, then the evil has full reign over the good because you're not opposed to it. Even Vader had enough common sense to kill the emperor Palpatine in Return.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    You're applying real world logic to a fantasy allegory.
    It's whole point is about how we should strive for peace and violence is never the real, full answer.
     
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  17. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    In my humble oppinion... And I do not intend any drama here... Regardless of your own personal preference for hatered, what you express here is in stark contrast to the ethos of Star Wars. You are quite literally criticising what Star Wars is about, the very message of our franchise. This is fine, of course, but it doesn't work well as a criticising of one individual part of SW against the whole. So, you disagree with Lucas' message in SW when expressed in a non-Lucas SW film; ok. I don't think we're going to agree on this one, my friend.

    #LoveTrumpsHateEveryTime
     
    #97 Angelman, Oct 16, 2020
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  18. The Birdwatcher

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    Thanks for respecting my opinion- I appreciate it, even though at least some people in this forum may disagree with it.

    "You are quite literally criticising what Star Wars is about, the very message of our franchise."

    No, I am disagreeing with ROTJ's message of non-violence, which is contradictory and confusing in its presentation within the film itself (I.E. Luke using all means of nonviolence with Jabba, but still kills/hurts Jabba and his goons in the pit- this is first seen as heroic during the scene with Williams' score, but the scene with Luke pulling a black glove over his hand happens after the fight, which implies that the fight caused him to have a lack of compassion or that fighting was possibly the incorrect thing to do) and is even potentially a retcon of Obi-Wan's definition of a Jedi Knight- "they were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." The key word here being, "justice". So, I am defending Star Wars and also The Empire Strikes Back as well, as Luke appears to still apply the "the guardians of peace and justice" philosophy in that film or simply standing up to an injustice due to common sense, despite Yoda teaching him a radical philosophy.

    TESB introduced the message of nonviolence and self-defense, which exhibits origins in Buddhism, of both Lucas and Kershner were fond of during production, I assume. But the message wasn't implemented until ROTJ so much, and we see the repercussions of that philosophy with Jabba's palace, tbf.

    An old review from Reviews from the North (has since been taken down) pointed out that "Luke just gives up" when he gets the chance to defeat the Emperor after fighting with Vader. He was confused with that scene, which surprised me years ago when I first watched his review. In hindsight, I think his observation was brilliant. What many, many Star Wars fans to assume to be a heroic stand of Luke's shows the weakness of nonviolence in the face of an active evil or "Evil reigns when good men do nothing". Luke's stand is also contradicted when Luke cries out to Vader for help, since his declaration was intentional (with the dramatic pause and breathing, I assume he knew that there was going to be some sort of consequence from this-pain, imprisonment, death) from the context of the scene. While disarming himself might have shown that he didn't want to kill Vader, it also allowed Luke to be pretty much defenseless (and makes the breathing scene that more tense).
     
    #98 The Birdwatcher, Oct 19, 2020
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  19. Grand Admiral Kraum

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    Horrible plot, nothing happens aside from Luke and Snoke's deaths.. literally nothing. If they were kept alive, The Last Jedi would be completely missable.

    Horrible use of music at times, with 3 second cheesy fanfares at random moments like a TV show.

    Canto Bight.

    Really lame new aliens and too many of them, literally no OT or PT aliens around either so it's virtually canon breaking considering its in the same universe as the other movies. Twi'leks, Zabraks, Biphs were prominent in Lucas' universe.

    Bad set design. The tree, Snoke's throne room.

    Everything in Canto Bight.

    Pink hair and a prom dress.

    HORRIBLE humour and dialogue, 14 year old kid rushing his homework level.

    Leia flying was just absolutely horrible and so so bad.

    Any possible arc for Finn to become a Jedi was wrecked.

    And everything in Canto Bight again.

    I really hate this piece of crap movie.
     
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  20. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    If you don't know by now you're basically lost ( lost like LUKE ) my friend... hehe... stop beating a dead Tauntaun... that's inhumane.
     
    #100 Rogues1138, Oct 29, 2020
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