For people who disliked the Prequels, consider this:

I will admit I have probably thrown it around too much in lieu of taking the time to type it as elegantly as you have here.

 

So basically you're pointing out that intent matters. The 6 year old who just wants tolook like Finn is different then the adult who wants to degrade people, and if thepeople who potentially would be offended looked into the situation they could/would learn that there is no racism behind the act.

So lets apply this to Jar Jar - the attributes he has that could be considered racist were clearly not given to him to degrade black people. Lucas clearly isn't a racist man, and the personw ho created his voice is black. And when taken as a whole, Jar Jar is not representive of black people he simply has a couple attributes that overlap with some sterotypes.

Like how the childs lack of intent and good intentions make his actions....non-racist, the intent of Lucas, Best and co and their good intentions (to create a funny character that would appeal to children) make that character non-racist. Got it.

 

I forgive all.

Another thing I learned from Star Wars. lol

I'm a lawyer, so words matter, these days most of all. Nuances like prejudice and race are often too complicated to handle on an internet forum. But we're all Star Wars fans so we're way better than reddit, Twitter and YouTube commenters! lol

 

Thank you, this sums it up well.

George Lucas tries to put in a lot of "familiar" stuff into his movies- even if it's not humans on earth, it often feels like humans on earth- it's relatable.

Some of these traits were interpreted by various groups as being rather offensive. Whether or not you agree with the taking of offense, it's not hard to see where these people at least see the issues- for instance, I truly have a hard time believing Ronin sees absolutely no similarities between Watto and the pictures Royle posted. Whether or not he believes the intent was there is one thing, but flat outright not at least admitting there are some similarities is absurd.

Ultimately, these portrayals can be pretty regrettable. Did they ruin the prequels? For some people, I'm sure they did. Others may not have even noticed, and that's okay too- it doesn't mean you're racist, just as it doesn't necessarily mean Lucas is "racist"- just kind of tone deaf. The point of discussions like this isn't so much to condemn the past, but to learn and hope for a better future. And I think at least most of us here are hoping for a better future with Star Wars than The Phantom Menace...

 

It means if you focus on negative things you'll be a negative person. If you focus on positive things you'll be apositive person. If you focus onr acist things, you'll see racism every in everything.

And you may not say the word, but its what you're talking about.

 

That's the truth lol.

I don't think anyone implied or at least intentionally did without the hustle and bustle of this back and forth, that Lucas or the people who worked on it are racist.

That was always in my main points at the beginning of this.

 

Yes, we are talking about racism, but that is not a simple topic to handle, it involves nuanced things like prejudices and intent and beliefs borne of social norms. And in no way is it cheapened when having a dialogue about it. The way fellow fans are hurt by something that involves something beyond filmmaking should be considered, unless is one just as callous and black and white as an Imperial officer.


Also, Obi-Wan was right!!!!

 

Spot on.

Lucas tried and failed and it came off as hurtful racist caricatures. He doesn't need condemned for it but it does need to be discussed to make sure it doesn't happen again.
These were bad characters and we need to realize why and be better for it.

 

And saying "Jar Jar say Mesa and was clumsy there fore racist" isn't very nuanced. And when you claim things that aren't racist are, yes you cheapen the things that actually are.

If everything is racist, then nothing is. Right?

If fellow fans being hurt by something should be considered, period, why did everyone dismiss Melissa Harris? Because we know what she is saying isn't actually racism. Jar Jar, Watto etc... aren't racist caricatures either, (neither was Pena in Ant-Man), and claims that they are should be dismissed as quickly as Harris's claims about Vader were.

 

She is dismissed because she's a race baiter. Her entire paycheck is hinged on her being able to stir up things.
She said "hard work" is racist. That is her disqualifies her opinion.
It's like when you dismiss the owner of an energy company when it comes to energy costs and consumption.

 

MHP's claims were uninformed. We know who and what Vader is. Vader is not using a racist caricature of the 30's. It's a simple distinction. She can see what she wants, but Vader was a dark samurai warrior and a reference to the ghostly voice from beyond referenced in Hamlet's graveyard scene. Therefore, everything is not racist.

I'm sure you and MHP would have a great discussion leading to nowhere fast. But we're trying to do better than that.

 

And if people would just stop killing each other, we’d have no more murder. Unfortunately, I feel this is an equally unrealistic aspiration.

 

Also, if MHP was actually smart and informed about Vader, she'd know that Vader is a great use to the 'Cycle of Poverty' theory that MHP presumably would prescribe to wholeheartedly.

Anakin grows up without a father and therefore, ends up abandoning his family. That legacy has to be dealt with in an uneasy fashion by the next generation, his offspring, leading to galactic strife.

 

By this logic I can just dismiss RoyleRancor and your claim as uniformed (and the issue with Vader would be more of a 70's look at "urban" black men, not the 30's)

You're seeing waht you want. Jar Jar is a clown, not a slave character from America's past. And his way of speaking was created by a black man based on how he made his children laugh - where is the racism in that? You can't say "well it wasn't intended as racist but ended up there", since you dismiss that notion with Vader - he was INTENDED to be a fallen Samurai and refence to Hamlet, but do those intents trump the end results if someone (Kevin Smith was able to pick it out as well, granted for humor but it was there to pick out) is offended? And if so, why doesn't that apply to Jar Jar and Watto?

Its funny the guy who says he forgives all keeps trying to insult me. But in this case, you're the one closer to Harris, you're the one seeing racism when it isn't there

 

This is a wonderful take on it and not based on artificial things like a suit.

 

Again, you refer to intent of the character. We went over this. His intent was to create a funny character. Too bad that walked and talked like a racist stereotype from the 1930s. We don't fault George, we just point out the offensiveness of it. He directly informed the way the character walked and talked - and that's on film and in writing. Watto was a stereotype of middle eastern greedy merchants. Neimoidians were almost...almost as bad as Ming the Merciless and more hapless and intellectually insulting.

You can again use MHP's example, which has been noted as uninformed. Her reference runs up against Shaft and blaxspoitation films as well as the pimp urban stereotype of the 1970s. It doesn't apply. Flashy clothes, Black Panthers, yes....those would have possibly been applicable references. Black Panthers were anti-establishment, which is cool but inapplicable to Vader's character in ANH (maybe Empire?). Vader is a pimp, though. lol. And let's not ignore that Vader was feared in a good way, and was a good character despite having little screentime. And let's not ignore how dumb the Neimoidians and Jar-Jar were. Both on opposite sides, but are complete buffoons.

 

LOL - ok the amount of goal post moving and double standards has reached the limit for me. If you still don't see and understand how you are changing your opinions and how you apply logic based on the character (probably based on charaters you like vs ones you don't) yet then you never will. So keep focusing on finding racism where it doesn't exist, I hope you're happy in that reality, I know I wouldn't be.

 

Yes, options are indeed changed. They have to be. What won discrimination cases 20 years ago may or may not suffice today. Jar-Jar and Watto and the Neimoidians were called out on day one of TPM's release in theaters. Day one. It was immediate.

MHP's claim about Vader, who, if is somehow a racist caricature, is her claim 40 years after, with multiple generations of fans of every background never even thinking about it until she did. And her references are more specious. TPM's characters were specific to tropes used in film and media, to N. Jim in Huckleberry Finn and Stepin Fetchit from the 1930s, and they were embarrassing characters, different from Vader. Shaft was a cool caricature. So is Vader, if you even really believe that MHP laughable opinion. Luke is a stereotype too. The nice little farmboy called off to war. But he's the hero. Nobody complains, just like they don't complain about this supposed Vader reference that MHP makes, again, laughable. But multitudes of people have loathed Jar-Jar and Watto and the Neimoidains from day one for those specific stereotypical references that were rejected from the moment those characters hit the screen, they don't have to be retconned like MHP attempts to.

I find it a very happy existence to try to understand other people's problems. It's actually my job.

 

Also, for the record, this doesn't have to make someone "unhappy". For instance, you can even take more recent films like The Hangover. I think it's still a pretty funny movie, but times have changed so much even from then that some of the jokes seem in poor taste now. You don't have to condemn The Hangover as insidiously homophobic or as having dark intentions- you can just recognize that it does have some homophobic or sexist qualities that are even more jarring now than they were a few years ago, then move on. There doesn't have to be an argument about it- it's just recognizing something that was the product of its time, recognizing that times have evolved values, and making the connections to how or why something could have happened.

 

Or Sausage Party, lmao. That movie is a throwback to all the offensive stereotypes, but it does it equally and its the whole point of the film.

Oh man.....lol