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How do we know Palpatine is really dead?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, May 24, 2020.

  1. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    I actually need to correct myself. In AOTC Dooku was able to force push Obi Wan. In ROTS, Dooku briefly held Obi Wan suspended while choking him. He then threw Obi Wan across the room. So, there is some precedent for this. Snoke and Palpatine seemed to take it to the extreme in the ST, in my opinion.
     
  2. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I don't know why knowing that Palpatine, or whatever he is host to, is dead and gone forever is even that important.
     
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  3. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Whichever way you look at it, Emperor Palpatine died at the end of Return Of The Jedi, as did his Empire.
     
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  4. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    It amuses me how often people online still suddenly get the lightbulb above their head and blurt out something like "It was ridiculous bringing Palpatine back. If they had thought about it for more than five minutes they could have had it be a clone of Palpatine instead. Even I can come up with that!"

    [​IMG]
     
    #104 Martoto, Oct 6, 2021
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I guess to give the impression that something was actually accomplished rather than functionally hitting a snooze button? That even if the Sith do return at some point, it won’t be via this particular method? That we’ve maybe learned from the lessons of the past this time and so will hopefully apply those lessons moving forward? That we aren’t just stuck on a Möbius strip of inevitability reliving the same conflict with the same foe over and over again forever? Stuff like that.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Exactly.
    Okay, a lot of people might disagree, but one of the things I liked about TLJ is that it tried to do something different. I honestly thought that come Ep. IX we would see a FO that were not entirely 'evil' and a Resistance that were not entirely 'good.' Most of all I believed that Kylo and Rey would end up forming a completely new kind of Jedi order - where people were not so rigid in their dogma and more accepting of human frailties. No more 'no attachments' rubbish. The PT showed the Jedi as in their own way as ruthless as the Sith - Obi Wan left Anakin to die in agony because killing him was 'not the Jedi way' when it would have been kinder to put him out of his misery.
    Instead they reverted back to the old 'black/white' way of thinking, rather than having something akin to the Grey Jedi, which would ultimately have ended the eternal conflict and begun something new. Kylo's words in TLJ...'it's time to let old things die'...actually had some wisdom in them. He had the right idea but was going about it in the wrong way.
    TROS regressed everything back to how it was. The entire saga now comes across as pointless. Nothing has been learned. Rey is a White Knight Jedi, and ultimately sooner or later, Darkness will Rise to meet her.
    Where a Balance of the Force as represented by Rey and Kylo coming together to begin something new would have been a 'healing', instead ...here we go again. The past will repeat itself, as signified by the return of Palpatine.

    The ST could have created a new era for SW but instead simply rehashed everythng. By the time the end of the film arrived all I thought was I'd seen it all before, and done a lot better.
     
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  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Watching Palpatine's death in ROTJ, it has all the hallmarks of an "I'll get you next time!" sort of villain "death". He's thrown into a pit that we know nothing about, we see him disappear out of frame, there's a massive spike of energy, we see no body... Even the Expanded Universe had him coming back in various forms, so it really shouldn't be surprising that he didn't return here.

    But I do totally get where you're coming from. I think, to me, the questions is:


    What does the film intend for us to feel after TROS? And then, of course, does it accomplish this?



    Are we supposed to believe that Palpatine is gone for good? Are we supposed to think that this was just a momentary victory, and the threat is still out there? Is there supposed to be some ambiguity?

    I think that's one of my other gripes with TROS. Even though I enjoyed the film for what it was, it tries to hard to sell itself as the finale of not only the trilogy but the Skywalker saga as a whole... yet it just ends so abruptly, and with so many potentially dangling threads. If we're meant to believe Palpatine is gone for good, what about the film makes us believe that? And if we aren't, then why is this a finale? Definitely a frustrating conundrum.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s certainly a valid read. I have no qualms with the mechanics of it whatsoever. Me, I always viewed Star Wars as a fairytale. Like Snow White. In the end, the evil queen falls to her death, love conquers all, and everyone lives happily ever after. The thought that ‘actually, no, the evil queen somehow survived and, as we speak, is plotting her sinister revenge’ never occurred to me. It’s not a wrongheaded idea, it’s just not entirely what I would view as necessary. If good hadn’t truly triumphed, then what was done wrong? What could it have done different? It’s important to understand that if the message of the morality play is to have any meaning. Otherwise, you’re continuing the story just . . . because.

    That the emperor could survive, I think is a totally sound premise. But, in so doing, you have to ask yourself the question of ‘why’. George’s six-part story was about how the forces of evil had prevailed because they were allowed to. Good people made bad choices and let it happen. But the next generation recognized the evil for what it was and fought to put a stop to it. And they were seemingly victorious.

    The premise of the ST, now with the zombie emperor twist, is that: actually no, good hadn’t truly triumphed. The forces of evil merely let it think it had. It was a con job. For me, that begs the question: what then could the good guys have done better? How could they have prevented this possibility? What’s the lesson they (and by extension, we) are supposed to learn? The villain’s plot was hatched and executed in total secrecy in a way that couldn’t have been realistically foreseen. Well, if he did it once, then couldn’t he do it again?

    I’m confused about what the moral of this story is supposed to be given that revelation. It seems to be: Evil will always be doing evil and there’s absolutely nothing you can do to curb that. Good will simply have to be infinitely reactive for all time always. Which, well, is kind of depressing. ‘Eternal vigilance’. The idea is oddly defeatist. It’s not the note I was expecting this fairytale to end on.
    Yeah, I’m definitely in that camp. I don’t dislike TROS. I don’t disklike any of the sequels. But its “conclusion” plays more as a ‘to be continued’ which has a discordant flavor of ‘cake eating’.
     
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  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    If that evil should return (and it will because these stories are about good vs evil) from some other origin that might be interesting. But doesn't that then devalue defeating Sidious?

    I just see Sidious as the boogeyman. You can't kill the boogeyman. Doesn't mean that any victory over him is not an accomplishment. The lesson of Palpatine's reign wasn't about how he was vanquished anyway. It was about how he was allowed to rise.

    If you want to look at it through Lucas's agnostic pseudo-Buddhist critique of Christianity, it's imperative that one devil/demon be the personification of evil throughout. I think that evil in the GFFA will always come from or have gone through Sidious. I don't think it's a coincidence that Sidious's name sounds like it could be in the same family of names for the devil like Set, Sedit, Sekhmet , Shiva, and Satan (and as a bonus the hebrew Abaddon formed part of the proposed name for the Emperor's home planet.)
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I guess another question to consider- if Palpatine is considered the "Big Bad" of Star Wars now, is Exegol how you'd want him to go out?

    Or maybe could it actually be better for the story if Palpatine survived, and Exegol was just the fall of the Sith Eternal?

    As much as I liked most of the prequel trilogy, I felt the battle at Exegol was just... well, it could've been a whole lot better. I'm not saying I want him to return in the next few years, but maybe a final Palpatine movie might not be the worst thing in the world.
     
  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Right and that’s pretty much my point. The PT and OT are arranged in a causal relationship. The effect we see play out in the OT is by virtue of the cause defined in the PT. The previous generation, which had every opportunity to prevent it, permitted evil to take over. Evil didn’t just take power, it was given that power.

    When the ST first kicked off with TFA, it was a similar scenario. The FO, an Imperial remnant, was tolerated by the New Republic and allowed to expand its territory. The NR had the means and ability to push back on that encroaching threat, but didn’t. Evil, again, was allowed to rise. Had they acted differently it could have been prevented. This theme is echoed in TLJ by way of Luke’s laissez-faire attitude toward the rising darkness in his nephew. Had he intervened sooner instead of turning a blind eye, he might have prevented that tragedy. It wasn't inevitable.

    The Palpatine reveal in TROS entirely reframes that causality. Not only has he miraculously survived his apparent death, but he’s also constructed a stupidly massive fleet that could conquer the galaxy whenever it felt like it. Couple that with Star Killer Base and, logistically, he never really needed the First Order at all. He could have annihilated the NR and taken the galaxy over without anyone being the wiser. But because of plot (or fear of Luke Skywalker or something) he just doesn’t.

    I absolutely agree, Palpatine/Sidious represents the darkside incarnate. He’s evil granted allegorical form. But evil in Star Wars doesn’t exist independent of personal choice. It’s reliant on the individual’s action or inaction. It doesn’t just happen. It’s given that opportunity. But the revived emperor was self-determined. It’s not that Luke or anyone else should have been expected to anticipate he’d survive the way he did. And it’s not that the NR should have been expected to anticipate he’d construct the “the largest fleet the galaxy has ever known”. Those are game defining elements that, from our purview, couldn’t have been avoided through loftier ethical choices.

    I don’t, in any way, think bringing back the emperor was a bad decision. I think it’s a fantastic idea. But the way it was done in TROS really muddies the water for me by being out of concert with the already established messaging. If evil doesn’t actually require good men to do nothing in order to triumph, then where does that leave us?
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Dang, that's a great reading of it. Really verbalizes what I always had trouble putting into words.

    The climax of the film just seemed to lack much meaning until it got too heavy handed.

    Sidious rose "because", not due to Kylo helping him or anything. He was defeated by The Jedi, not so much by the actions of the living (perhaps a bit of an oversimplification, to be fair). The fleet arrives to save the day, due to... Lando (this storyline is a bit foreshadowed, but it's such a massive payoff for such a small buildup).

    Everything just feels so unearned. JJ is trying to get us to the ultimate climactic finale, with big Dragon Ball Z energy fights, but it does feel like we skipped quite a few steps to give that moment weight.

    That's why, for me, the movie really peaks at the fight on the Death Star II. Those scenes just feel so much more impactful. Thinking about them actually makes me want to watch TROS again.
     
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  13. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    Watching ROTJ before any EU stuff, Palpatine's "death" in ROTJ felt really, most sincerely final. While there was no body, he was thrown down a very, very long shaft, some energy appeared which seemed to indicate his death in some way, and then the space station this all happened on exploded. And as for the body, unless they were to show him at the bottom of the shaft (which would be jarring and possibly get the movie an R rating), I don't know how you'd go about showing his body that didn't appear ridiculous (showing his body in space?).

    The end of ROTJ definitely felt like the end of the emperor, to me.
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, that's fair. But if I were to have seen that scene today, divorced from the context of actually being Palpatine's death for 35ish years... I could see how someone might have some questions.

    "They're not dead unless you see a body" has become pretty much a Hollywood trope at this point, outside of even comic books.
     
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  15. Flying spaghetti monster

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    In ep.5 Palpatine knew Luke was going to kill him. So I imagine he created a contingency plan. He probably set up the whole cloning thing and the battle of Jakku plan knowing all of this. It was the perfect plan, he thought. But his clones were defective and his clone/son ran away, so he used his granddaughter as his new vessel. Now it's fool proof, he thought once more. He didn't have a contingency for Rey killing him, so he got zapped and Indiana Jonesed and that's it he's dead.
     
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  16. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Exactly. It only really passes as conclusive if the saga ends there. But the saga doesn't end there.

    I think people get it backwards. Like, the saga had to end at VI episodes because Palpatine disappeared off screen with a blue light trailing him. It's the other way round. Palpatine disappeared off screen with a blue light trailing him because the saga might have been ending there and then. But the saga was continued so that makes it as open ended as it actually appears.

    It's basically the equivalent of Vader's defeat in ANH. You can take it as just a bad day at the office or Vader now being adrift in space with all his Imperial buddys and the symbol of the power and authority of the Empire he serves destroyed. It was like in the old days when the horse belonging to the vilain, probably played by Peter Cushing, would get spooked and bolt from the battlefield, dragging the helpless bad guy after it. Perhaps to his death. Perhaps not. You would have to wait and see. Palpatine's defeat in ROTJ was a more spectacular version of that.
     
    #116 Martoto, Oct 8, 2021
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    One of the best things I've read.
     
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