How powerful is Snoke ?

I've always seen the Force like the Japanese "Chi", an energy that is everywere from every single living creature, something that always has been and always will be, something that every people can feel but only the trained ones could use or change, just like Yoda explain in ESB. If that's the case a few considerations about the Force we should set:

- All the characters in the Galaxy can feel the Force
- The Use of the Force is limited and is gradual to the training on using the Force itself
- The Force is, the force as always been, se has no will nor desire. The Force has no conscience.
- Dark Side/Light Side are just personnal choices or options of the same individual depending on the reason to use the Force on a given moment
(Light - Using the Force in behalf of others / Dark - Using the Force on self benefit)

Just like Energy, the amount of "Force" today is exactly the same as it was in the beggining of times or in the end of the Universe. Therefore i don't see the unbalances of the Force nor the super high level of the Force nowadays, and the ability to anyone using the Force is depending on his training (Socrates said it - You only do well what you have done many times).

I believe Snoke can be super powerfull in the Force because he might be an old entitie but neither Kylo Ren or Rey cuold be so powerfull in the Force use because they still are apprentices.

 

Indeed.
"Is the Dark Side stronger?"
"No. It's quicker, easier, more seductive".

That has always been true for me. Yoda at his best could beat anyone and was as powerful as any Sith could ever hope to be. It just requires much more discipline (and sacrifice).

I'm intrigued to why Kylo turned, in part because of this element. It doesn't appear that anything traumatic happened to him - he just seems to have a superiority complex (hence why he thinks his non-Force sensitive father is foolish and weak). Solo also says he had too much Vader in him. It's almost implying Kylo was born bad. Or with a lot of bad in him. Where as the Anakin story was a lot more about how his environment impacted upon him. Kylo just seems to have been born a dick.

I don't know if anyone has read (or seen for that matter) We Need To Talk About Kevin? But Kylo kind of reminds me of the kid in that. It's written from the POV of his mum (who never wanted kids really) and that Kevin is a problem child from the start. She thinks he hates her (and only when he is poorly does he seek her affection and return it to her in equal measure). He makes out he likes his dad but really he despises him. Anyway, Kevin ends up being one of those high school "shooter" kids but his mum does her best to stand by him and even takes him back when he leaves prison.

I'm wondering if this is what Kylo is like. A troubled kid from the start who perhaps is tainted by a darkness that will never escape him. He's cold and can cruelly justify his actions. For some reason, he just hates the galaxy. It just strikes me that there doesn't appear to be an obvious reason why he went bad and killed his dad.

I haven't done the aforementioned book any justice in my above paragraph but I highly recommend it. One of the best books I have read.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2016 ---

But then why was it so important for Yoda and Ben to wait to train the twins? Why not just find anyone and train them?
The reason is that from the start there were people who had a stronger potential in the Force than others.
Yes, I am sure that everyone in the universe does have a connection to the Force and with enough training could use it to some extent.
But a lot of it is genetics. This is set out in the OT with the Skywalker lineage. It was in the very early drafts.
So for me "midichlorians" is just a name given to something that has existed all along in the Star Wars universe.

The Force is the energy created by all life. It is by extension the collective consciousness of the galaxy. It's a build up of life's energy from the past and present. That's the first thing worth considering.

So why does it unbalance? The Force is made up of both light and dark (and neutral). There can't be good without evil and vice verser. Both these energies come from the life that creates it. So, when the Sith are around spreading their evil everywhere this creates more darkness than light. This impacts upon the life that creates the Force. So as well as the Sith doing evil things and spreading their own evil energy they are forcing the lifeforms to omit a dark energy as well. That's how the Sith cause imbalance.

It would be interesting to see Rey or Kylo go up against someone with more experience because as we see in ROTS, there is more to Force abilities than just 'raw power'.

 

I always consider the goal of Kylo Ren pure personnal power quest (self obsession, egoistic) and the fulfilling the Grandfathers quest is just Ruling the Galaxy (again Egoistic desire)

I really don't like the genetics approach and even less the Midichlorians, as we all know apart from racing horses the genetics play a decisive role in mankind history, as so:

- John Lennon sons are musical genius
- Michal Jordan and Shaquille O'Neal are Basketball Gods
- Einstein sons are astrophysics nobel prize winners

Again i really don't like the genetics and the chosen ones approach, i believe any single man or woman has the hability to do whatever he wishes to do as long they work for it.

It shouldn't be chosen lineages on the Force users.

Like there aren't no Good or Bad persons so it shouldn't be no Dark or Light Sided Force users, every single person can do good or bad things, better persons do mostly good things and rotten persons do mostly bad things, but either one could do the opposite action on a given time.

 

Up to a point. But there are some people who couldn't for example be great basketball players. The Star Wars Universe is just an extension of that with the Jedi. Some people just aren't born with the necessary abilities to be 'successful' at it. But like I say, the genetics thing has been there from the start with the Skywalker lineage. But that doesn't mean a 'nobody' couldn't train hard and become a decent Jedi.

That's true about people - but not Jedi and Sith. A Jedi by definition HAS TO avoid using the Dark Side (anger, fear, aggression, hatred, greed, selfishness) and instead be compassionate, selfless and loving. But as we see, this isn't easy, requires great discipline and sacrifice and sometimes a Jedi fails...

 

The whole "family element" has been there since, ROTJ. Yoda tells Luke "The Force is strong in your family." And later on, Luke repeats this back to Leia when he reveals that he's her brother.

 

Now my friend i think you come to the point.

Star Wars has always been Black and White in morality issues, in the psychological sciences this refers to a severe personnality disorder, when NOTHING in life is Black or White, everything is grey, sometimes is white while others might as well be black but the most lightly is that will be white again. Star Wars has always been NAIVE.

Genetics has always been a big deal in Star Wars, when every single example on Human Evolution and Mankind History told us that's not a factor at all, or in the other hand it might be a exclusion factor, if a guy is a hell of a fighter the most likely is that is sons wont. Again Star Wars has been NAIVE and Prejudice.

And let's not start on PREJUDICE on Star Wars, racism and sexism are all over the board for starters.

Yes i think that Star Wars has been short minded and higly prejudice but i love it either way, the first 6 movies of Star Wars seemed like a child play with huge mistakes and big moral flaws but i really loved it. Thankfully the new Star Wars trilogy will be correcting some of these questions, i think Disney is going to try hard to avoid the sexism and racism in Star Wars movies but i do belive they still need the chosen ones to sell movies and so the genetics will play a role in the new movies as well. But the good thing is that we can see what's wrong behind that approach and fight for a better world.

 

Also Force powers have been steadily increasing since at least ESB, just in film:

-We don't get Force Pull until ESB, nor Force Jump.
-Force Lightning comes in ROTJ.
-Force Push not until TPM.
-Etc.

And that's not even counting the EU stuff. So this "progression" is not a new thing. The Force is constantly in motion, and more can be learned about it.

 

I've learned My Jedi Moves from "Jedi Academy"

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2016 ---

Now honestly, i believe the creative teams aren't really considering the "Force Powers", and simply go as follow.

Just consider the possibilities of the Force Powers (Levitation, Mind Reading, Mind Control, Force lightning, Force Push and Force Pull, etc....) and then see Whats not in the movies? Think for once, if any of us could write a SW movie who much force powers would be on it, and what kind of them? Marvel and DC did so much with so little powers, imagine what they could do with the Force Powers?

 

Well the alternative media has gotten A LOT of mileage out of that very idea.

I also noticed that most of Kylo's abilities aren't really brand "new" per se. They're more like supped-up/flashier versions of stuff that we've seen before.

 

I think kylo is a guy that likes to be taken close to the edge where he can "pull the trigger" on what he feels is right or more important, in that way he is a narcissist "you know I can take whatever I want don't you?" (paraphrased).
He isn't more powerful than vader just flashier, and he was either taught by snoke or developed them earlier on by adapting teachings from luke. You have to remember that he was a year after the battle of Endor so, he's like 30 at this point and maybe older than Anakin was. He isn't as powerful as Anakin when he turned (able to take down tyrannus) but he is powerful in certain techniques such as STASUS and mind domination. Its possible they are just indicators of his potential but he hasn't rounded out his skills because he is so torn and unable to grieve and move on (he grieves his difference from the skywalker family, with the exception of vader).

Ultimately kylo just feels different and figures he has to stand out, and so snoke comes in and says he is special and gives him a path to be different and to accept that he is like vader. In those conversations, snoke helped him better some of his powers in order to build his confidence. Kylo then was uncontested and strutting about because Luke didn't want to face him, but he pains to find Luke because his existence proves his power is false. He kills han to get to Luke and to show his power, and state that he is lost to the darkness (stab luke in the heart *as you can see in his face at the end*).

Its all been about subversively weakening Luke and tearing down his legacy until the point that there is nothing left but cinders.



Snoke has pulled Kylo towards the darkness to destroy the lasting victory of the light.
And he has done it at the point that the previous generation cannot just use their power but must rely on the new generation to fight it out.
Snoke intends to run a race where Kylo fills the purpose of a sabotuer, and stabs them all in the back in the wake of all their sacrifice in order to utterly break their will.

For Snoke to see all that and harbor the WILLPOWER to utterly break the will of the light shows INCREDIBLE INFLUENCE.
To harbor such vengeance and spite is destructive to self, yet he maintains it to a degree that consumes ALL that has occurred suggsting that his revenge is a dish he is serving COLD.

Make no mistake, snoke is far more powerful than kylo, and has a power over him that utterly dominates his will. Kylo is hyperventalating under the pressure, and has had a lot of light in him that is being torn into the dark.

The only reason rey beats him is that he is not his own man, so she was able to rally her strength into force valor (as yoda uses to vastly empower his physical strength) to overcome Kylo whom was not expecting such strength to come from her.



This idea here is that Snoke doesn't underestimate anyone, he realises kylo has weaknesses, but insists that kylo remain confident and NOT BECOME OVERWHELMED BY THE SURPRISES OF THE LIGHT.
Snoke is patient, he is dark, he is far more powerful than kylo.

It is my belief he is the anti-luke and is making luke feel what he felt when the sith victory was destroyed.
The path forwards for the light is humility, the path for the dark is narcissism.
One craves the victory and the power of vader, the other seeks the utter resistance of the dark and serenity.


The dark siders aren't dead, but they were CUT IN HALF and left mangled, and snoke remains in order to enlighten them to the fact that their victory is premature. There is no way he makes that statement as a weakling, he must feel he has the seething rage and power to uproot luke and cast darkness over the galaxy once and for all. And as HIS shadow looms, kylo follows, and that alone ought to terrify luke and it does.

But of course, luke is like "I've been here before, I won't fall to the dark temptation of fear"
So as powerful as snoke is, luke is still standing.
The point being, the battle has already begun between the deciples of light and dark, and neither master of light or dark is going to submit to the other.
His darkness must be as unwavering as lukes light and has endured the destruction of the sith just as luke survived the purge.

 

Kylo is a guy who's all intimidating and menacing, when things are going well. But the moment that things start to not go his way, he tends to all apart. And I imagine that, like most Force powers, his abilities require concentration and focus. So him cracking mentally won't help matters in that regard.

And yeah, his powers don't seem all that more powerful than Vader, just flashier.

 

yeah, i would argue that Kylo Ren's emotional state makes him an easy target for Snoke. Snoke doesn't actually need a lot of power to rule him.

and the fact that Han believes Snoke will just dispatch Kylo Ren when's he's through with him says a lot about Snoke's potential fear of others' power. i think Snoke is all smoke and mirrors.

 

The thing is, power is a very vague term. Is this referring to his physical capability? His influence over others (e.g. Kylo Ren, the First Order)? Or is it about his control of the Force?

Physically: He is clearly crippled and scarred. I don't think there's a lot he can do, in his current state. However, before he was injured, it is likely that he was much more powerful.

Influence: He controls the First Order and is the master of Kylo. It also seems likely that he has some part to play in the Knights of Ren. Leia and Han know about him, Luke probably does, not sure about the wider Resistance and the Republic though.

This is where Snoke is most powerful: commanding others. He does not need to fight himself, he gets others to do his dirty work. The Emperor was the same.

And it seems like he has brains. He is tactical. He's been able to rebuild the Empire from it's weak state. He can tell 'the girl' Rey could be valuable and so orders Kylo to bring her to him. And when Starkiller Base is crumbling, he is calm and tells Hux to retrieve Kylo for him. He does not waste time and is a strong leader. In this sense he is very powerful.

Force: At the very least he is Force-sensitive. If he can train Kylo then he likely has some control over the Force.

My personal theory: I think that Snoke may have been partially influenced by Voldemort from Harry Potter. When the first Harry Potter book/film begins, Voldemort is a disembodied soul. He's very weak and requires apprentices to do his bidding. However in the fourth book/film he is reborn with a new body. I reckon VIII will end on a cliffhanger, where Snoke is reborn and more powerful than ever.

If Snoke is Darth Plagueis, then he is definitely the most powerful figure in the galaxy. He created Anakin/Darth Vader via the Force and therefore the entire Skywalker bloodline. If he can do that, what other crazy things is he capable of?

 

For Luke to have taken such extraordinary measures as to remove himself from the conflict and seek out the first Jedi temple, Snoke would have to be an unprecedented challenger.

Such a power-wielding entity tipping the balance of the Force so decisively at this stage, after the extinction of the Sith, is the only way the storytellers can have appreciably diminished and displaced Luke.

Luke, in the Original Trilogy, did not flee from...

• the Call to Adventure (i.e. of the Hero's Journey) once it became apparent nothing was left for him on Tattoine.
• the Cantina
  
• rescuing Princess Leia on the Death Star
  
• the Death Star at the Battle of Yavin
• the AT-ATs on Hoth
  
• Jabba the Hut (when attempting to rescue Han Solo)
• Boba Fett
• Yoda
  
• Vader on Bespin (even though he was admonished by Yoda for rushing forth unprepared) -- and his falling, after Vader's revelation, cannot count as cowardly "fleeing": he is rejecting the call of the Dark Side and choosing to cast himself instead as one dedicated to the Light
  
• the Scout Troopers on Endor
• Vader on Endor
• the Emperor

Now, to make Luke run, if that in fact is what he has done, Snoke must be shown to present a challenge of a wholly new magnitude (and not merely the illusion of power as has been suggested in terms of the Wizard of Oz treatment via his projected hologram. It has to be real and tangible.

Anything less than that level of power and Force mastery would almost certainly make for an utter disservice to the true character of Luke Skywalker and all he and the Rebel Alliance have sacrificed and fought for.

More than a disservice, it would be a betrayal, setting up Luke to be unfairly blameworthy for the woes of the galaxy. Luke would have had to betray himself, his friends and family, the Jedi and their teachings and legacy, and all that was good if that was so.

Snoke must be unbelievably, impossibly, extraordinarily powerful, or else the storytellers at this stage have reduced Luke to an incompetent fool for having fled when we was needed most. His journey thus far says this cannot be so, so let us see.

Above all Luke Skywalker cannot be relegated to a mere plot device. If finding him was the point in VII, making the point in VIII is paramount.

His decision to leave must be redeemed in Episode VIII, and so Snoke's power and identity should be clearly defined and demonstrated so we can understand and empathize with Luke's decision and begin to see the wisdom of his departure and perhaps preparation for what ultimately must be asked of him, and perhaps others, to confront and counterbalance Snoke decisively.


JediMasterRobert

 

I've been enjoying your posts today!

I agree, Snoke must represent a challenge that hasn't been faced before.
My view is that Snoke's power must be something beyond the physical - in that he must have some secret knowledge that is a threat to Luke.
After all, Luke at this point should be as physically powerful as one could get. I can't really see how Snoke would a threat he would be unwilling to face in that regard.

There is another angle to this however. Snoke/Kylo may have done something to Luke that impacted upon him so badly that he knows if he faced them, he might just tap into the Dark Side again. It's not a line of thinking I am that fond of as Luke has already jumped that hurdle along his hero journey. But if he is that upset by the academy slaughter or perhaps as some thing the loss of his wife and/or kid(s) then he might be tempted. This might be a reason why he seeks to train Rey - basically to do his dirty work for him. For Luke it might be too dangerous.

 

really good post.

but i would still argue the opposite. Luke isn't a coward and he didn't run specifically from Snoke. he left to center himself for his failure with Ben and the fallout of that disaster. it's still something that needs to be rectified (totally agree), but it's less about Snoke's power than Luke's present feeling of the lack of it (failing to control the situation).

he didn't stay and fight because he didn't believe Snoke alone has enough power to be a threat. not yet. it's not Luke's job to police the universe. he was trying to train a new generation of Jedi and failed spectacularly. it makes sense that he would take himself out of the picture to get perspective.

Snoke is now amassing the kind of power that is a threat. he's built up the FO, he's got Kylo Ren doing his bidding, all wrapped around his little finger. but if Snoke was sooooo unimaginatively [edit: well that was a telling slip ~ i mean unimaginably] powerful, he wouldn't need to hide behind a hologram and use others to be the "face" of his organization.

i could be totally wrong. i just can't shake the feeling that Snoke is either a MacGuffin or just the worst Star Wars villain ever. hahaha

 

Thank you, master_shaitan.

In Return of the Jedi, Luke did seem to be willing to engage in decisions that might have run contrary to the Prequel Era Jedi Order -- his "Forceful" entrance to Jabba's Palace and his overcoming Vader upon the allusion to Leia.

But then he threw down his lightsaber and spoke the words, "I am a Jedi like my father before me," and took a stance I cannot see him stepping down from philosophically in his overt rejection of the Dark Side.

So, for me, I'm hoping this is beyond question in Luke's character (even as I am aware of interviews and articles and of course the EU exploring the possibility Luke could turn). I think it's important that Luke be preserved in that manner, that turning would never be an option.

Which is not to say he could not be more like Qui-Gon Jinn in a semi-nuanced-Gray-shaded interpretation of the Force to perhaps extend it to include the love perceived as forbidden during Anakin's time and/or to redefine it in less strict terms than the Jedi Order of the Prequels.

Luke's return to the first Jedi temple could go a long way to helping Luke re-establish himself as a true master of the Force, shedding the lesser and more imperfect trappings of the more contemporary Jedi whose extraneous codes and, in some cases, borderline sanctimonious conduct (i.e. Mace Windu vs. the Emperor while Anakin pleaded for true Jedi justice) might have gotten in the way of the Jedi's ability to relate evenly and completely with the Living and the Cosmic aspects of the Force.

As in our own world, certain spiritual practices, if too rigid and steeped in procedure and fanfare, can get in the way of someone seeking a more direct connection with what that person deems divinity.

Hopefully Luke's abilities have grown so powerful as to afford him the unprecedented wisdom and strength he will need to counter-balance Snoke's negativity while more positively bringing yet another New Hope to the galaxy.

JediMasterRobert

 

I agree. I don't think Luke drastically reformed the Jedi. He was successful because he acted as any Jedi should.
It's more about his ability to truly see the good in his father, knowing he could be redeemed and then in the moment finding that inner calm and putting down his saber. I think Luke's actions on the whole were a lot more intuitive than perhaps we saw Jedi act in the PT.

Perhaps. But I don't think there is a place in a Jedi's life for that kind of distraction. It is dangerous. And a Jedi's role is to serve the Force.

Exactly. He's going back to go forwards. I likened it to the training montage in Rocky 4! Rocky trains in the Siberian wilderness, whilst Draco does so in a technologically advanced gym!

Yep. Nice.

 

I think this could be a near-perfect way to simultaneously demonstrate Rey's training versus Kylo's, something that could be visually compelling and foundational to the Sequel Trilogy's embodiment of the Force.

The opportunities for juxtaposition and contrast are almost too good to pass up, imagining Luke enunciating the essential tenets of Jedi philosophy which he chose to retain, imbuing Rey Light-side insight but with greater acuity than Yoda, while Snoke taunts and pummels Kylo with the relentless malignance of the Dark views while trying to eradicate any sentiment left in Ben during the completion of his training.

This could be a wonderful mini master class of the Force and a microcosmic view of the entire saga if handled well.

JediMasterRobert

 

I still think that Luke's reasons for leaving aren't specifically tied to Snoke necessarily. He may factor into it, but that's not all there is to it. Like perhaps Luke came to believe that the traditional light vs. dark philosophy of the Jedi/Sith was fundamentally flawed, and that even if Snoke/Kylo/The FO were defeated, the cycle would just end up repeating itself again at some point. After all, defeating Sheev/The Empire and redeeming Vader didn't end the conflict either.

So he went looking for a more permanent solution. And where better than the First Jedi Temple. Learn how the original Jedi became so powerful and wise to being with, and hopefully also figure out where/when things started to go so wrong, and then try and use that knowledge to do things better moving forward.

And Snoke could be the reverse of that. He also believes that the traditional ways are flawed and wants to do it differently. But his motives are evil and malevolent. Just a thought anyway.