SPECULATION "I am your father" - vader's true error of judgment according to Snoke?

i always took it that Vader's realization of having a son propelled him into thinking he could destroy Palpatine and they could rule the galaxy together. Palpatine was overconfident in Vader's loyalty and though he suspected Luke could be his end, he didn't see Vader turning on him.

and even so, that's just good Sith behavior and fully expected whether Luke is in the picture or not. Vader wanting Luke to rule the galaxy is as much a power grab as anything else. Luke just happens to also be his son.

so no, i think "sentiment" as far as Snoke is concerned, is Vader's sacrifice of himself to save Luke and give up the possibility of ruling the galaxy (decidedly not good Sith behavior).

 

well...it was rather momentary since he perished shortly thereafter.

don't forget: they were winning against the Alliance up until "the crucial moment" in ROTJ.
there was no such "crucial moment" at which the Empire would have prevailed when Luke confronted Vader in Bespin.

 

I do agree that it probably was the moment where Vader confronts Luke in Cloud City that was his lapse in judgment (it's where he was specifically poised to kill Luke if he wanted). But I don't agree that he wasn't following in the mode of a Sith by trying to gain a new apprentice. Even if he's unable to turn Luke, there's a strategic reason to tell Luke his father... to further shake his confidence in Obi Wan and his tutelage. It seems to be standard Sith protocol to exploit weaknesses, this would seem to fit the bill.

A related but tangential question is how does Snoke know what happened on Cloud City? Was he there or was he told? From what vantage point did he observe the rise and fall of the Empire?

 

i don't really follow. nothing about the OT ever struck me that it was about killing the "last Jedi".

it seems very clear to me that Snoke is referring to the events of ROTJ, but there could be other interpretations; sure, why not?

 

Hmm quick question: how does that compare to the situation we have with the Rey/ Kylo and Snoke? When Kylo tried to convince Rey to be his teacher and join him- Did he want to combine their powers and destroy Snoke? Is this the reason why Snoke changed his plan and messed with Rey's mind, because Kylo already turned on him? If you think about it, why would he want Rey to kill Kylo otherwise...?

 

That is an interesting parallel, but I think it's probably a coincidence. We're talking about 2 Force Users with vastly different skill levels and maturity. I really do think that Vader was making a genuine attempt to corrupt his son to the dark side, with plans to further consolidate power for himself (i.e. overthrowing Sidious and elevating Luke as his apprentice). He didn't realize that there was light still within himself when he did it that Luke could exploit (IMO). I kinda feel like Snoke is engaged in a little bit of "Monday Morning Quarterbacking". If he had turned Luke with the revelation that he (Vader) was his father, it wouldn't have been seen as sentiment. Snoke is judging all of this based on the results and not the intent (IMO).

As for Kylo, I view his mind probe far less strategically than Vader's Bespin monologue. While there was clearly a reason for Kylo to probe her mind, you get the sense that some of it was Kylo attempting to show off... attempting to demonstrate how powerful he was. At that moment in Bespin, Vader does not have the inferiority complex that Kylo has, he isn't showing off for Luke's sake like Kylo is showing off for Rey.

 

While Snoke might reduce (even for the sake of simplicity in his brainwashing of Ben/Kylo) this "sentiment" of Vader's to a "momentary lapse," the change in Anakin/Vader is actually long in the making, as I see it.

In The Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader convinces Emperor Palpatine that Luke Skywalker could be turned instead of destroyed, after Palpatine dubs Luke their "new enemy":

Palpatine, ever calculating, would have sensed early on Vader wanting to see his son and possibly, true to the Sith, take Luke as a new apprentice and take over Palpatine's reign.

All the long, Palpatine had used emotion and fear as a means to torment and enslave Vader. The moment the newly minted Vader comes to life in Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine nearly gleefully tells Vader how Padme's passing was Vader's doing.

Luke offers yet another opportunity for Palpatine to test Vader while at the same time seeing if Luke could be turned and possibly even take Vader's place, as the Emperor openly stated in Return of the Jedi: "Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"

By the time the above scene occurs in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke is on his way to Dagobah to meet Yoda.

As I see it, Vader bought Luke some time, whether he initially wanted to or not for a secretly good reason, even if it was simply (to paraphrase what Han would say in TFA) to "see my son's face."

I see Vader's revelation in The Empire Strikes Back as noteworthy in this discussion, because he is presenting Luke with the truth and quickly following up with what he must have partly believed was a viable option, given Luke's precarious cornering at that moment: "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

Luke rejects this option and the truth of Vader being his father.

Shifting perspective here, it must have registered somewhere, deep beneath that black armor of Vader's, as he watched his son choose plummeting almost to a certain end instead of joining him.

Vader, powerful with the Dark Side of the Force, perhaps could have even stopped Luke from falling. Instead, it gives the appearance Vader let Luke go.

And in that "letting go" moment, one could argue this is simply Vader letting the "he will join us or die" option playing out naturally: Luke chose not to join, and it must have appeared at that moment the choice was final.

We know soon after this, after Leia tells Lando and Chewbacca to go back for Luke, that Vader calls out through the Force to Luke ("Son, come with me.", who is slowly realizing it might be true as he asks aloud, "Ben, why didn't you tell me?"

Vader knew Luke was still alive, and the pursuit would continue into Return of the Jedi, where early on the Emperor let Vader know he could sense Vader wanting to find Luke: "And now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker." Palpatine also concedes Luke is even more capable now: "He has grown strong."

Palpatine at this point, assuring Vader "[Luke] will seek you out," perhaps sees Vader no longer as a colleague but as the bait to attract a new apprentice (again: " take your father's place at my side").

Palpatine seems unlike Snoke in this regard and, ironically, is a little more like Obi-Wan, who confessed to Luke on Dagobah, "I thought that I could instruct [Anakin] just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

That is to say, Palpatine seems to really believe he's in control (e.g. "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."), and it is his overconfidence (which Luke properly cites later in his confrontation with the Emperor) in Vader's loyalty and/or his/their ability to lure Luke to the Dark Side.

Vader's sentiment would have been building atom by atom, day by day, through a combination of several factors:

• his eventual mistrust of or general distaste toward Palpatine
  
• his true-to-Sith desire to succeed Palpatine
• the realization he has a son (something from Anakin's fatal love of Padme survived after all)
  
• the desire to meet his son under the subtext of Luke being convertible to the Dark Side
• his memory of having first encountered Luke in the trench run at the first Death Star
• the realization it was his son who brought down the Death Star (as recently revealed in the Vader comics)
  
• having seen his son and realizing his Force powers are indeed formidable

Luke's final stand off with the Emperor, Luke's final pleas to his his father, and Anakin seeing his son being drained of life before his eyes, all amplified that seed of "sentiment" within Vader and caused him to acknowledge his son's brave sacrifice and desperate need for help.

Had there not been that tiniest bit of good in Vader to begin with, Vader could have easily and decisively ended his duel with Luke at Cloud City. Luke was powerful, and I believe Vader was surprised by that show of Force, but Vader quickly ramped it up enough to show who truly had the upper hand in that encounter. Which means Vader conceivably could have ended everything right then and there.

But Vader let it get to this point, believing perhaps up to the last minute, his son could be turned, but instead he found he -- Anakin -- could be turned.

Once Anakin realized he could embrace the Light again, that he could possibly find some last shred of redemption in spite of everything, that burgeoning belief empowered him (as it did Rey in her duel with Kylo) just enough to stand back up, overcome the Emperor, renounce the Dark Side, and save his son.

As we know, Snoke chooses to minimize and misrepresent Vader's bravery. Snoke portrays that strength as a weakness, and for good reason: it allows Snoke to "sell" a certain ideal/idol of Vader to an eager-to-be-a-Dark-Sider Kylo Ren, extrapolating this misinterpreted "flaw" as a teaching tool to further subjugate and indoctrinate Ben/Kylo with a Dark Side ideology.

Perhaps Luke will have an opportunity to teach Ben otherwise: it is Anakin not Vader (or that helmet relic) that Ben should regard with admiration.

JediMasterRobert

 

it's not my personal interpretation of the scene that Rey was told to kill Kylo Ren by Snoke. unless Snoke is a literal manifestation of the Dark side, i just took it that it was Rey's own Dark mirror goading her on. i know someone said that's not how it plays in the audiobook, but that's how it definitely plays in the novel and i can't really speak to the other. i don't get the impression that Snoke is actually aware of who/what Rey is yet in TFA. i think Ren is the first to find out.

but to the question: i think if Kylo Ren could make an ally of Rey and use her strength of will to his advantage, he could turn on Snoke.

but i don't believe that's what's happening in the scene.
he's fishing for a disciple because he wants her personally.
he also knows that unless he turns her, Snoke will have her destroyed--and he doesn't want that.
this is his equivalent moment of "i can get the map!" (instead of firing Starkiller). only now it's "i can turn her!" (so you don't have to destroy her).

Ren doesn't seem to be able to think more than two steps ahead (or, really, at all, in the moment).
we know he's impulsive and he has mildly disobedient ideas about what to do with Luke.
but we don't know if he has some secret agenda or some larger plan in the back of his mind--yet.

he's just too disorganized a thinker. and if he was plotting against Snoke, i don't believe he would have fallen apart on the bridge the way he did--because he wouldn't have felt so trapped.

if Ren is capable of deep long-term clever subterfuge against Snoke, i might be rather irked that it's not well-telegraphed anywhere in TFA in terms of Ren's behavior/choices/actions. Ren isn't strong enough to resist Snoke sensing his pull to the Light or his compassion for Rey (with or without the Force). how would he manage to keep Snoke from knowing he's going to kill him the minute he gets a chance?

sure, it's the Sithy thing to do, but i think Snoke has taken great pains to prevent Kylo Ren from even imagining such a possibility.

 

When vader revealed "I am your father" Luke was confronted with two opposed options:

a. Embrace father's new idenity as Darth Vader and become like Vader
b. Vader's identity is separate from his previous Self/identity as Anakin.

Luke has to make a choice from two options in order to determine not only the true identity of his "father" but also his own true identity. If Rey is a Skywalker and related to Kylo (hypothetically), both Vader's grandchildren start out as an embodiement of the two identities of his father Luke was confronted with:

a. Kylo's identity masks that of Ben and is similar to Darth Vader's Self
b. Rey's identity is the binary opposite, she represents Anakin's original Self. Luke must remain true to the person Anakin was.

These two binaries might move towards each other, move away from each other, or exhange position and cross the boundaries represented by the dark and light depending on the way Rey and Kylo solve the moral and emotional issues/conflicts they are confronted with. But the one person around which those binaries revolve is Luke, because Luke is the only person with knowledge about Vader/Anakin's true Self. Luke functions as the mentor of Kylo's original Self, Ben and mentors Rey, whose true Self might become conflicted

These binaries might be mirrored by Anakin/Vader's force ghost or how Vader is presented in visions to our protagonist and antagonist. The grandchildren might see different versions of Vader/Anakin's identity in visions etc. In the end it's the third generation of Skywalkers which determine Anakin/Vader's true legacy. They represent the YingYang and true balance in the force. No wonder Anakin's sabre (which has agency and "summons" its new owners) spawn a vision sequence which starts by showing Rey the duel between Vader and Luke on Bespin. The "I am your father" dialogue is pivotal for the entire saga and places Empire Strikes Back at the heart of the nine episodes.

 

I always got the sense that Vader ALWAYS was planning/wanting to overthrow Sheev (it's what the Sith do after all, double-cross each other). But he felt that he lacked the power to do it himself, and then Luke came along. "Together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son." I think that he was being genuine when he said that. What he didn't know is that Luke's actions would set him down the path to his own redemption, which culminates onboard the DS in ROTJ (and yes, I do think that Vader killing Sheev, and himself in the process, is the "momentary lapse" that Snoke is referring to).

As for Kylo's offer to Rey. While I do think that it was at least somewhat genuine as well, I also think that it was much more spur of the moment than Vader's was (Kylo is far more impulsive and less calculating than Vader was in general). Like he's surprised at her FS during the interrogation, and then with her being able to "out Force Pull" him with the lightsaber, so his offer was basically a response to that.

 

And confirmed from what we have learned so far from the "Darth Vader" comics.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 16, 2016 ---

True. All of it is being covered so far in the "Darth Vader" comics. The way Palpatine treats and despises Vader, even considering a group of artificially-created abominations to take his place, starts growing on the Dark Lord of the Sith and then the revelation by Boba Fett that the pilot who destroyed the Death Star was a Skywalker, made him aware of having a son. At that moment in ESB where the Emperor tells him about the son of Anakin Skywalker, I guess Vader was feigning surprise but he already knew Luke was his son.

 

When Kylo mentions "you need a teacher" during his duel with Rey, I wonder if it crossed his mind, or if this was simply him trying to get her to stand down so he could take her to Snoke as commanded.

This might partly explain why Snoke appears by way of hologram.

I haven't read those comics, but I've heard of the Fett revelation.

If Vader is feigning surprise before the Emperor, that seems to make it all the more interesting for Vader. It would mean, for the first time, he recognizes a path past Palpatine, another option, even if it's still Sith-like in nature. Luke's mere existence would then mean Vader was inspired to think in new terms, and that would mark the planting of the seed of hope in Vader's scarred brain.

Another way to look at it: Luke's presence is to Vader what the photon torpedo was to the Death Star -- a catalyst for an eventual reaction that came unexpectedly because it was deemed unlikely or impossible such a reaction could ever take place.

Only, with Vader, that would take a while to happen. Luke being alive, repeating the word "father" and invoking the name Anakin Skywalker, all helped to build up to that final reaction in Vader.

And when it did happen, it was just at the very right moment, triggering Anakin's "re-awakening" took the Emperor by total surprise. It was years in the making, but well worth the wait, for Luke, for Anakin, the galaxy, and the Force.

JediMasterRobert

 

Great analysis. And agree. Fear had driven Anakin to the Dark Side and the knowledge of no more attachments when he thought Padme and his unborn baby were gone left him there.

Some people wonders about ANH how Vader didn't feel anything when interacting with Leia initially. Obviously it was because GL didn't have them related until ROTJ lol. But really what I think it is that for Vader he was not aware that his offspring was alive - and even less that they were two instead of one - so for him that kind of emotional thinking like "oh I'd have a son or a daughter her age" would be definitely out of contemplation.

 

Thank you, PrincessLeiaCB3.

Aside from it not being written at the time (which I think is probably right), some things I had considered in the past, with regards to Vader not detecting Leia, was that, beyond her being raised as an Organa (i.e. not a Skywalker), she was raised in such a way (perhaps at Obi-Wan's advice to Bail Organa) to downplay or deny her Force-sensitive nature.

Anakin, Luke, and Rey are all natural Force-sensitives, so it stands to reason Leia should "have that power, too."

I think, if there were ever a TV series focusing on the life of young Princess Leia on Alderaan and her travels through the galaxy, it could be interesting seeing her, at times, having an ability or influence she does not quite understand (and perhaps, when her father learns of that, he contacts Obi-Wan for advice or intervention).

As revealed in Rebels and other stories, there were many potential Force-sensitives throughout the galaxy, and maybe Vader sensed a little something there but thought nothing of it because he thought he knew her past well enough to dismiss her on that level. He knew it would be more important to try to get her to reveal the location of the Rebel base more than anything once she was captured in A New Hope.

It is interesting how Star Wars media beyond the movies can sometimes begin to address some of these questions or even introduce new questions.

JediMasterRobert

 

Makes a lot of sense. Actually in the Rebels episode she appeared, she actually sees Kanan and Ezra using their Force-sensitiveness and she does not look surprised at all. I don't think she knew about her own Force-sensitiveness then, but maybe Bail told her about the Jedi and the Force.

And agree, that would be nice, to learn more about young Leia and if she ever had any early indications of her Force abilities she didn't understand then.