Is Ben Redeemable?

Welcome to the Cantina @M70ko @Perdu @Darth_Mu @Too Gon Onbourbon and @Andrew Waples!

It's nice to visit a thread and find a page of fresh insights and ideas.

I struggle a bit with the concept of atonement. In my mind there's no compensation that can make good for victims of murder or abuse. Surely such harms are irreplaceable and can't be fully restored? But I can understand attempts at healing and transformative justice for all survivors - including Kylo as he is also a victim in some ways.

Yeah I can't see how people could forgive Kylo's sins when noone can undo or wipe clean the past. Kylo must own everything he's ever done. I guess if people wanted to they could set aside their differences or stop blaming him. (Is that forgiveness?)

If Kylo embraces the light some may choose to accept him, others not, but that's their prerogative. (I've always thought it's a bit rude for someone to ask a victim for forgiveness.)

I agree. If he ever did find balance there'd be little point in bringing more guilt, shame or pain into the world by punishing him. He may choose a constructive path or make a heroic sacrifice but if he is ever truly rehabilitated further punishment would just be revenge not justice.

 

Wild headcanon/speculation.... if blood is a thing for Kylo, there may be a KOR pregnant girlfriend,
or to say it better, someone tasked of giving him a heir.

But everything falls down.
I believe there's going to be a fight whitin the first order (Hux vs Kylo)
and if the Resistance is going to win, no matter what....
All his ambitions and illusions will be destroyed.

Betrayed by the FO, he will decide to help the Resistance win over Hux, sacrificing himself.
And the heirs by virtue - not blood - are going to take care of the child.

End.

Not going to happen, but makes sense.

 

@Moral Hazard Thank You!
It's nice to share and speculate this way, I personally learn a lot from other people...

Yes, I think, when you punish someone (in the right way, as a constructive punishment) it is to make him aware that he has been doing wrong. But we can realize about that on our own. Otherwise I think it wouldn't be an honest regret, cause it wouldn't be our choice to make. And sometimes it creates hate instead.
So, something must happen to make Kylo wake up and see beyond his anger...
At least that's what I'm hoping

 

I think the problem is that bit of realism we may expect in a movie/tale, even tho is fiction and sci-fi fiction or fantasy fiction.

Kylo is now the Supreme Leader.

He has personal and "political" reponsabilities.

Now, a reborn Republic has to judge him.
They may condemn him to life imprisonment if not to the death penalty.
But it's one of the two.

Sure a storyteller may do something else... but would it be good storytelling?
I don't think so.

That is why, in cases like that the redemed villain dies.
You end your story on a climax withouth telling something hard to believe.

That said...the best alternative to death that I see, is someone inside the Resistance
offering him a way out, in anonymity, in exange of some help.

They - one or two people, not eveyone - will pretend and tell eveyone Kylo had died and set him free.
But I don't see him accpting the offer... it looks out of character, unless he really wants to leave a
life of atonement.

 

It is not what I would have wanted for him. But I think he as a charachter is positioned towards it. Based on how he was portrayed in the last jedi. While in TFA his predominant charachteristic was sadness, I saw something completely different in him in TLJ. In spite of the story arc he has there, in spite of the Jedi Academy flashbacks that cleary show he has legitimate right to feel abandoned and betrayed by those who should have loved and trusted him the most, the main charachteristic trait Rian Johnson decided Kylo Ren to have in this instalment was anger...and not the good kind of anger, but the childish, selfcentered kind that is reminiscent of a petulant child who screams and tosses everything around him because he feel it is his right to do so just because he couldnt have a toy he felt entitled to have. The kind of anger that arises from arrogance.
In my opinion it is a serious regression of his charachter. Almost an irredeemable one.

The only thing that leaves me with a tiny flicker of a hope for anything else than death for Kylo Ren is his face and demeanor in the moment when Rey closes the door on him and he looks down to witness his father's memento disappearing/slipping through his fingers. To me that scene conveys his acute realization of how alone (now again) he really is. And how it was *his* actions, *his* choices, and his choices alone what brought him up to that place where he is now. Will Rey be a strong enough woman to embrace him (and I dont mean as a lover but as a person) with all of his flaws, it remains to be seen. I am not sure she can or will be allowed to do so and because of that he will have to die and earn his redemption through death.

To answer your questions. By lightsaber. For killing his father. For himself.

 

i think it's interesting that among the conversations Driver had with Johnson during TLJ was whether Kylo had ever kissed a girl.
i think unless his priorities change very dramatically between TLJ and IX, yeah, it seems highly unlikely he'd be breeding ~ hahahaha : D

 

Well, he seemed interested in clones. Perfect choice. Ahahaha

 

Interesting... Really interesting Mr. Driver 7u7

 

Kylo in episode 9...

 

As said I do believe as well that there's something different between 7 and 8.

But... What we know is that Han and Leia saw too much of Vader in their son before sending him to Luke.
And Luke did whatever he did because he saw that too. And it was worse that he figured.

So the source of the problem is not abadonement and betrayl.

So much so it's clear that he doesn't hate his parents.

And I don't think his goal his revenge.

That is the key.

In fact, when Rey asks him why he killed Han, not only he says he didn't hate him.. But it's then that
he says to her that her weakness
it's that she's seeking for a father figure and then that Luke is afraid of her powers as he was afraid of his powers.

So to me, Ben/Kylo blames his parente and his uncle not because they left him alone..
But because they took his powers as a problem.
While he - with "Snoke's help" - came to the conclusion that those
powers are there because he's meant to do what Vader didn't...

The "betrayl" is this one from his pov. That his family refused to see
what he believes they (Luke, Leia and him as heirs of A.Skywalker) are meant to do.
Worst: Luke and Leia are responsable of Vader's downfall.
Etc...
And now they are trying to stop him.

In addition that lineage is a thing for him it's made clear not only by
his words to Rey (you have not place in this story because you came from nothing)
but by Snoke. He provokes Kylo calling him young SOLO just because he knows that Kylo values his Skywalker's blood.
To him, being called Solo, it's almost equal to being called bastard. It's not the same of course. But it hits him.

 

I dont even think he blames his parents, at least not by now.. I sensed he needed to kill them to become numb.
Kylo is trying to destroy his humanity by killing all the good that's left in him. Interesting cause he couldn't kill his mother.. And he chose Rey over Snoke.
Some people can say that he was only using her to become the Supreme leader but I don't see it that way ... Cause Snoke already wanted him to become greater and worthy of his title... I think Kylo decided to kill him cause he knew he can never get rid of his feelings, and eventually Snoke would've kill him for not "having what it takes"
That is why he wanted to create something new..where he doesn't have to make more decisions like killing his family or his (potential) love interest...

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2018 ---

Of course he couldn't convince Rey so he could have felt abandoned there. And Luke, well, he wasnt over it yet..
The guy has issues xD I hope he figures them out...

 

This highlights an interesting comparison in tactics:
Ren's tries to destroy his weaknesses.
Luke turns his weaknesses into strengths.

 

Sure, Luke does this...after moping around an island drinking green milk and waiting to die for six years.

These Skywalkers. They're a little slow on the uptake.

 

No. Once he shoved a light saber through his father any path to true redemption was gone.

 

That they are. (I had originally written Luke (eventually) turns his weaknesses into strengths.)
And to be fair it's less of a deliberate tactic for Luke and more learning he just stumbles into in ROTJ & TLJ.

I guess there's technically still time for poor Ben then.
He is a Skywalker and an exceptionally slow learner.

 

That is interesting.
But I believe that the connection is with Snoke's words about Hux

"You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power?
A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool."

And later on, this is what Kylo tells during that Force-Skype-Call

"..you can’t stop needing them [your parents].
It’s your greatest weakness.
Looking for them everywhere"

So to me, the chances are that he was manipulating her since then.


@M70ko that plus the confirmation from Rian, that Kylo knew before
entering in the throne room the second time (with Rey) that he was going to kill Snoke, tells
to me not that he choose Rey instead of Snoke, but that he used Rey to kill Snoke.

In fact, watch again the first throone room scene.
When Kylo tries to react to whatever Snoke was doing to him, the Pretorian Guards move.
and he looks at them. He knows he can't do anything against Snoke if alone....

As he knew (TFA, his conversation with Han) that Snoke was using him for his power and that
he would have destroyed him sooner or later. He knew it "Supreme Leader is wise".
That is not a denial. So what he does in VIII is destroying Snoke before Snoke destroys him,
when the chance is given.

That said, all of this doesn't exclude at all that he may have feelings, that he does feel alone etc...

But in all honesty I think that maybe there's something we're getting wrong because of the
novels, etc... And i'm not that sure anymore they are so meaningful.
After TLJ I doubt novels, comics etc... are written to add hints.
I guess the authors don't know what's going on and sometimes add their own impressions.
In other case, something is simply erased by the next movie.
In short: movies are all that matters.

And if we look at the movies... I don't think there's a clear hint that feeling alone or abandoned is the
cause of his attitude. I don't think there's nothing in TFA that tells that.
When it comes to TLJ things may be a little bit more complex.

This is the full conversation with Rey

REY: Why did you hate your father? [...]
KYLO: I didn’t hate him.
REY: Then why?

KYLO: Why what, say it.​

REY: Why did you- why did you kill him? I don’t understand.

KYLO: No? Your parents threw you away like garbage
REY: They didn’t.

KYLO: They did. But you can’t stop needing them.
It’s your greatest weakness. Looking for them everywhere. In Han Solo. Now in Skywalker.
Did he tell you what happened that night?

REY: Yes.​

KYLO: No. He had sensed my power. As he senses yours. And he feared it.

REY: Liar

KYLO: Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.
That’s the only way to become who you were meant to be.
​

One way to look at this conversation is that he felt abandoned too.
I don't deny that
But if so, why he didn't hate him?
I can't tell.

But I think, in all honesty, that there's another way to look at all the conversation and
that the point may not be that he felt abandoned too, but that he doesn't want to need his parentes.
That he did what he did, or he's doing what is doing, because that need/love is form his pov his weakness.
The obstacle he has to overcome to become what he's meant to be.

And he's meant to be whatever he believes he's meant to be, because of his powers.
Powers that his parents first ("There was too much Vader in him") and later on Luke
saw as a problem.
That is what hurt him. But instead of "learn" how to use those powers to become someone
his family wanted, wished for, he choose another path.

But even if so... Rey may be the only person not scared of those powers because she has
those powers too. So sure he's interested.
She may "help" him to get what he wants and she may not fear him.

Then even the finale - the door Rey closes and him looking at the dice which is a symbol
of his parents love, so of his "family" - is the realization from Kylo's pov
that loneliness, seclusion is the price he has to pay.

Something that he does in that moment, not before.

Not that I'm sure, but I think it works even in this way.

​

 

Yeah, maybe.
I guess it's not as simple as the observation I made above.
And maybe Ben is a quick learner in some ways - he learns from Snoke's lessons.

First he tests his lesson about compassion undoing Vader.
He commits patricide and even gives proposes Rey kill the past to overcome her weakness.

But then he takes Snoke's lesson about manipulation to the next level - Luke's level.
He turns his own weakness (Rey) into a strength and uses it to destroy the big bad.



Ah, the vanity of the SW villain.
They think they have someone "tied on the end of a string"
but never foresee them swinging around and coming right back at them.

 

Sure.
I mean that is my main criticism to his arc in the movie.
Because we cannot be sure.
Even what I said about the throne room (that he knew he was going to kill Snoke before he entered the room)
it's not something one may take for sure watching the movie.
I had that feeling, because there are some hints.
But it's not that in retrospect you may absolutelly sure.
But had Rian not confirmed that was his intent, all the reads were still legit.

what precedes that moment is still - for all of us - unsure, questionable, etc...

 

Yeah the scenes around this part of the movie allow for a lot of ambiguity (and I love it).

IMO what Rey and Kylo foresaw the other was going to do was both correct and flawed:
He did "turn" (against his master) and she "helped him".
She "turned" (she used a lot of aggression) and did "stand with him".

Kylo masking his intentions from Snoke is also ambiguous.
We don't know what level of detail Snoke can utilize when mind-reading. He talked generally about "sensing resolve" and then more specifically about the saber. I wouldn't be surprised if his room was designed to focus his powers similar to how I imagine the temple on Ach-too may do for Luke.

Either way Kylo's ruse would be tricky to perform. Going into Snoke's room with the plan (like Rians take) or just being an opportunist - he still had to hide his decision in front of his master.

That's a fair reading too.
Where I'm from "manipulation" tends to be used as a pejorative so to be fair I think we should ascribe it to both Rey and Kylo!
They were both trying to convince each other toward their own agenda and FWIW I think they were both genuinely trying to stand together (in their respective corners).

 

THIS. they both tried to turn each other and they both failed.

not because they're terrible people, but because they wanted the other to be with them.
nothing Ben says is false; if he really wanted to beguile her he could have done so sweetly.
no, he bludgeoned her over the head with the truth because he thought she would react to it as he would have.
just the same way Rey thought he would react to the death of Snoke as she did (yay! now let's save the Resistance!).

both of them foolish.