Is Ben Redeemable?

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this, and I have a lot of thoughts on the matter. I don't really want to do too much of a deep dive into my thoughts right now, as I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on all of this.

Could he be redeemed? Yes, definitely. I think it'd be naive too turn a blind eye to the possibility, because he really is all over the place. But should he be redeemed, and will he be? In my mind: no.

I think that my entire thought process for this boils down to one very short and succinct point (regardless of how many pages long my follow-up will be): we've already seen a redemption arc in the Skywalker Saga. Now, you might be tempted to turn around and argue this and that about Vader's redemption and how it's similar to Ben's potential redemption in many ways, and I totally understand those points. But, if we're going to look at the Saga as a whole, the fact that we've already seen a redemption means that we've already had the point of being open to allowing others to change, and offering them the opportunity to change for the better - regardless of their previous actions - play out. In my mind, in terms of storytelling, this makes Ben's potential redemption somewhat redundant (and pale in comparison to the other directions that they could take this in), because it's something that we've seen and learned from before. Vader's redemption was a lesson to the audience, and a lesson that we've already learned from. Kylo Ren should teach us something else.

This is completely different to bringing the Monomyth/Hero's Journey into the fold, and goes beyond drawing parallels to previous films.

But let's talk about the parallels, because I think that it pushes the point a little further. Han's attempt at redeeming Ben symbolically parallels Luke's attempt at redeeming Anakin in ROTJ (it's the Atonement with the Father, but the other way around), and Han even asks Ben to take his helmet off so that he can see the face of his son (much like how Vader took off his helmet at the end of ROTJ to see Luke with his own eyes). On the other hand, Rey's attempt mirrors Padmé's attempt at redeeming Anakin in ROTS. Both times, Ben chose not to turn, despite being given the chance, and even went so far as to do something that Anakin never did: he killed a member of his own family. Very importantly, Rey calls Ben a monster, which he admits to being, but he never goes beyond that - there's no promise that he'll change, or even as much as a hint that he wants to. He knows that killing his father was wrong, and so the decision to continue walking down the path of darkness in spite of this shows just how far gone he really is.

Musically speaking, too, Ben is on a downward spiral all throughout TLJ, with his descent into madness being represented by the ongoing repetition of cues during moments of hesitation and frustration, much like with Anakin in ROTS on Mustafar. There are even a few occasions where he is represented by a cue from the Imperial March, which is much more literal in its similarities to the piece than Ren's own musical motifs.

I'm glad that you brought this up, because this ties into my next point about how events in TLJ can change how we look at some of the important events in TFA. On a side note, I disagree that Ben begged Han to help him: all he did was ask for his help, but with no clear intention as to what with.

"I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"

If you look at that line with TLJ in mind, I think it's actually pretty credible that he's referring to not knowing if he has the strength to take on Snoke and assume the role of Supreme Leader. The Visual Dictionary for TFA makes it pretty clear that Kylo/Ben thinks that he is the rightful ruler of the galaxy, and Ben killing Han does nothing to quell Snoke's fears about him feeling the pull to the light side. Rather, such an act allows Ben to quell his own fears about whether or not he has the strength to turn against Snoke and to claim what he sees as his: if he can kill his own father, what's to stop him from killing Snoke?

It proves his strength to himself: he's willing to do anything, and is willing to kill anyone, to rule the galaxy.

 

Sometimes its nice to see things from a different set of eyes for a more balanced view.....

Yep...I want actual good deeds, the sort redemption encompasses.....the frills might be okay for some but I hope for something more substantial.

 

But we haven't seen a redemption of a character who is actually surviving his redemption. Can you imagine how interesting it would be to learn more about Kylo Ren's/Ben Solo's fate after his redemption? The possibilities are endless.

These parallels actually confirm for me that he will get redeemed. He's a reversed Anakin.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2018 ---

@Julius Fett

Interesting observations regarding Kylo/Ben interactions being an inversion of Anakin/Vaders. Kylo's complexity is fascinating....on one hand, I can see him having an amazing redemption....but on the other, being a patricide and a leader doesn't bode well for SW force users going by legends, whether Darth Bane, Darth Sidous/Palpatine or Vitiate/Valkorion (or killing someone you care about like Darth Malgus killing his love Eleena Daaru).

 

Yes, indeed it is!

I don't think whatever Ben's redemption act is, it will really be related to the window-dressing drama we get with him. That's just a side effect of being a Skywalker male.

 

I guess to each their own..... Obi-wan was more my cup of tea.

 

And yet he can't kill his mother...

I agree with @NinjaRen that we are most likely looking at a reverse Anakin story, serving to put a nice tidy hopeful bow on the sequel trilogy in the grand tradition of the Skywalker Saga. We're also following the classic storytelling structure of a comedy/happy ending story IMO.

It's also important to note that we are not talking only about a traditional hero's journey in the ST. We are also talking about a heroine's journey focusing on Rey, which is different from Campbell's original in many, if not all, of its essentials.

 

Well, there are many reasons why he might not be able to bring himself to kill Leia: his relationship with her might have been better than his relationship was with Han; he's already proven to himself what he needed to prove by killing Han; etc. I don't think that him not killing Leia is the final nail in the coffin which concludes that we're getting a redemption arc.

Like I said, I can see the argument for his redemption being likely, and agree with yourself and @NinjaRen with regards to Kylo's story serving as a reverse Anakin storyline, because it's something that the community's talked about since TFA, and something I've personally advocated time and time again. This is just the other side of the coin, and I think that it's important to talk about the possibility of Kylo going without redemption, especially given how many were taken aback by the direction which TLJ took the story and characters arcs.

Finally, I never said that we are talking only about a traditional hero's journey with the sequel trilogy, so I'm not quite sure where you're noting that point from. I'd assume that you're talking with regards to what I said about another redemption arc being different to how they have pulled from the Monomyth, or how they have mirrored and paralleled shots and arcs from other films in the Saga? Regardless, I don't recall suggesting that Rey's journey isn't any different from Campbell's Monomyth anyway, but I'd be interested in hearing your argument as to why Rey's journey as a heroine is different from Campbell's original Hero's Journey in all of its essentials.

All I'm really arguing is that, from my own perspective, Ben seems a little bit more interested in faling into the volcano than he does the hands of other characters, who are offering him a way out and a chance at redemption. A redemption arc could be great, but it could also suck if executed poorly, and its a similar story for if they choose to not let him have a redemption arc.

 

At this point, I think ep.9 will be epic. JJ returning after TLJ, I HOPE he will utilize creative latitude and come up with something different from the norm. Kylo is now the big bad so a redemption will be dramatic to say the least.

 

Oh i agree there is a possibility of him going without an explicit redemption which for me its fine... Cause during both movies we have already seen him struggling through his decisions, sometimes killing, sometimes sparing... And for a villain and for me that's enough.
He is supposed to be the villain now. Villains shouldn't hesitate and have a hard time during their villainy, yet he does.
For me the question is if they're keeping him alive or not... :0

 

A redemption is likely if ep.9 picks up directly after TLJ but most are predicting that it will take place a few years later. If thats the case, Kylo maybe a bit more comfortable in his role of Supreme Leader, so it would take allot for a redemption. How will it be done without General Organa?

 

True, but neither does it support the idea that Ben's purpose in killing Han is gird or test himself for killing Snoke and taking unlimited powah! If he is weak enough to not kill his mom, where does he stand then?

Sure, but on the other hand, it's standard for a comedy/romance to end the second act with the estrangement of the two primary leads or a Very Bad Development That Looks Like the End of the World.

Yes, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear about that. My point is if you look the ST from the female gaze, from a woman's point of view, which we have with a protagonist of Rey, it can shift your thinking about the outcome, and with that, Ben's redemption. I'll give you the Cliff's Notes version of my thoughts here, because TBH I ought to be working instead of playing here on this fun playground with you all. The heroine's journey (the link is one version, but there are variations) in most of its iterations is essentially a female coming-of-age story. It's all about a woman growing up and coming to understand her place in the world, her identity. It's at its roots an inward emotional/spiritual journey, far more so than the traditional hero's journey. (That's also not to say Rey's arc doesn't have some aspects of the hero's journey too, but that's not her essential arc.)

One of the milestones is about how she integrates with her shadow or animus or the masculine, which is essentially what we have going on here, with Ben as Rey's "other half." (You'll remember RJ talking about two halves of the protagonist, "the dark rises and the light to meet it," the yin/yang idea, etc.) So Ben's journey is interconnected with Rey's in terms of story elements and there's no getting away from it. The question is, on a metaphysical as well as on a plain storytelling level, as Ben is Rey's counterpart/other part of herself--will Rey kill/deny/reject that part of herself and thus not finish the journey and remain unchanged? Or will she integrate/accept it and so finish her heroine's journey? If she does, is it because she has accepted and become the dark nature of herself (the negative animus, unredeemed/unrestored Ben), or is it because she has accepted and helped to heal the dark nature of herself (the positive animus), which corresponds with restoring Ben?

That's my POV in a nutshell. My way of looking at the heroine's journey isn't the only way to see it, of course, but that's how I come down on the spiritual elements in play. Sorry it's so brief; I hope it makes sense (at least sort of ).

 

and yet what if he actually turns out to be a good, well-meaning Leader? or tries to be?
his objective has always been Order, not chaos.
what if Ben ruling the galaxy isn't actually the worst thing?

doubtful, but just saying: just because he's taken on the mantle doesn't mean he'll wear it as Snoke did.
this is why i think he and the FO are going to have a falling out pretty quick over the direction of their objectives.

 

Exactly my thoughts.. I don't know how to take what Luke said: "the war is just beginning" cause the Resistance needs time to be restored. The same time Kylo needs to prove what he is capable of as Supreme Leader.. I don't think he's following Snoke's steps, no. They still need to show us Kylo's truly intentions regardless of the whole Resistance thing....

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2018 ---

So, this is when Hux comes in? Completely obstructing whatever Kylo intends(hopefully something good)

 

Rey asked Kylo not to go this way, thats why she took the saber from him and ran off. If she thought he could still be redeemed why did she take off like that and shut the proverbial Falcon door on him. Redemption seems most likely, Rey and Kylo end battle: Rey, 'I feel the conflict in you...' LOL but do we really want it to go this way, again?

 

Yes we've already seen a redemption arc, but we only want the same thing on repeat right!??! RIGHT?!?!

 

If Rey thought Ren wouldn't be redeemable anymore, then she would have killed him while he was unconscious. And she closed the door on Kylo and not on Ben. She wanted to send him a message: "Only Ben Solo can enter."

 

Precisely.
She's upset, but I can't picture them wanting to kill each other anymore.
She wants him to go with her and he wants her to go with him, but they need to give up a little so they can be together.
People need to stop fearing the dark side, cause that's what they've shown us so far. With Kylo a see a chance for Rey (and for us) to get to know darkness (I'm using dark instead of evil here).. As Luke showed Rey, there's life, death, peace, violence, etc.. So they need dark to make balance.. But they need to get rid of the evil part. It's a little fuzzy but I think that's the idea? Correct me if I'm wrong please..

 

No worries, that's a very interesting perspective and some interesting points! I've had to flick through the link quite quickly, but I'll be sure to give it a deeper read later

Honestly, I can see it going either way, and whilst I think that there might be more potential outcomes if Ben stays "bad" and goes without redemption, I think it could be just as interesting see how a redeemed (but powerless) Ben reintegrates with society (perhaps even more interesting than how his relationship with Rey - romantic or not - could develop, at least to me).

I've suggested it before, but I think that an interesting way to have it play out and bring everything together would be to have Ben stay as the villain well into the film, going so far as to duel with Rey, though perhaps without the bitter intent of killing her but with the intent of defeating her as she stands between him and ruling the galaxy, regardless of whether there's romance around or not. I don't think that Ben has any major motive besides ruling the galaxy - unlike both Snoke and Palpatine - which, it seems to me, ultimately came as a consequence of the burden of his bloodline which resulted in him being born with immense innate powers. Being born with power has blinded Ben, and being born in a position of power even more so: he needs to feel weak. What I've suggested is that they bring midi-chlorians back, but this time with Rey having the intention to nullify/remove the midi-chlorians that Ben was born with, which ultimately ties in directly to his potential with the Force. Being [quite literally] powerless, and having Rey give him another chance (hey, he might even lose an arm so that he's in a weak enough state for her to initiate the actions required to do this), Ben might finally be given the time he needs to step back and reflect upon his actions.

This ends the Skywalker Saga without the spilling of too much Skywalker blood, and it all ending on a distasteful note, but it means that the potential in the Force of future Skywalkers (should Ben have children) will be equal to that of some commoner Kaminoan, for instance. Going forwards, this means that we aren't tied into the trope of Skywalkers always defining which way a battle goes, and future Skywalkers could even be pacifistic peacekeepers, shopkeepers, noblemen, etc., or what-have-you, despite the possibility that they might not be able to use the Force. Just thought I'd throw it out there

 

I like this, but I have just one problem...
Having him willing to kill Rey would be like throwing all their story through the window. In my opinion, she's his only connection to the real world, where he doesn't have to worry about his bloodline or whatever, that was what he was offering to her in the throne scene. The problem was, of course, he still gives a sh*t about other people's lives.
That's what upsets her. But I think they could work perfectly as a team.