Is Ben Redeemable?

Tell that to everyone in the Hosnian System . . . and Luke's Jedi students . . . and the Church of the Force.

Redeemable his soul may still be, but suffer a villian's fate he should.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2018 ---

Revealed your opinion is.

Yes, he is redeemable. But I must part ways with you there.

I would mind him killing the whole resistance - mainly because I do not believe in him. He is manipulative and selfish. His actions are glaringly so.

I don't find him to be all that complex either. He is predictable and has an insatiable thirst for power that he believes is his birthright.

He can't get rid of the corruption. Corruption flourishes under monarchy, tyranny, and despots. It will compound under his rule.

You speak to his honesty. I would rebut with that he is only honest to us, the witness. We see him in private moments due to the nature of the storytelling. Personally, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could force-choke-throw him.

Regarding following orders, if you stand by and allow genocide to occur and are complicit in both its existence and maintenance, you are also responsible. You do not get a pass.

And I most definitely do not wish him good health nor absolve him of his poor choices and diseased character.

Im nice enough to say I hope his soul gets redemption, beyond that - nothing from me.

 

I think we are on the same page and I'd like to ask you, if you may add the quotes from the TFA visual dictionary you
were talking about.
That Kylo sees himself as the rightful ruler of the galaxy, is my take... but after TLJ.
Watching TFA I believed he wanted to finish what vader started, in a Jedi purge fashion.
So to me, this is something that "changed" between 7 and 8.
But I didn't know about the TFA visual dictionary.

However, let's not forget, that TLJ's script was made a month after the filming of TFA ended...
So it's possible that they put that info in TFA VD knowing about further plot lines.

However, that said, about Han and Kylo...
One thing I noticed, is that in the first throne room scene
talking to Snoke about killing Han, Kylo says "when the time came I didn't esitate".
Later on, in the elevator scene, talking to Rey, he says "when the time will come.."
That to me was the hint that he was going to kill Snoke...
And we know now - see the latest statements Jhonson made on the matter - that this is the case.

But I don't think he killed Han as.. an experiment, or a "run-through"
I think he did that because - as you somehow pointed out - from his pov Vader's weakness was the love he felt for his family.

To finish what Vader started, Kylo has to do what Vader wasn't capable to achive... to rule the galaxy.
And to do that, he has to "overcome" the love for his family.
In this scenario, it's not by chance, that in TLJ we hear him say he didn't hate his father...
And then sure, he also have to kill Snoke... Vader killed the Emperor, but to save Luke not to rule the galaxy, and he died because of that.
More than that, Vader wanted to rule the galaxy with Luke. But Luke refused (because he loved Anakin Skywalker, and his
legacy as aJedi) and instead of killing him and rule the galaxy Vader - the chosen one - chose to save his son and to die.


And if we think about the words Kylo says to Luke, they are even more meaningful:
- The Resistance is dead, the war is over and when I'll kill you, I'll kill the last Jedi.
These are all Vader's failures:
The rebellion won, the war didn't end well for the empire and he didn't kill all the Jedi.. he saved the last one.

In short: the love for his family (and we know he didn't hate Han as he doesn't hate Leia) is
the pull to the light that he identifies as his Achilles heel. The conflict for him, is not a tension
to the light. It is the effort to reach the dark... He's not conflicted because there's a inner voice
telling him "you may turn back good". I believe that inner voice tells him "maybe you're not
that strong (=evil) to do what you have to"

And I agree that redemption is something we've seen, but not something impossible.

 

Like I said, when we compare him to Vader. Yoda and Obi-Wan suddenly forgive Vader for all those evil deeds. Anakin nearly purging the Order that Obi-Wan and Yoda have held dear their entire lives and suddenly their cool with him because he killed The Emperor? If one good deed is all it takes then Ben can easily be redeemed.

 

I like this.. Oh no, i think I'm darker than I thought cause even when some people talk like any Jedi would (saying he must die or suffer) I have to disagree...
I guess that's because we've seen this battles many times, I like to think there's a way to stop them repeating over and over. :/

 

Your post I initially responded to stated: "I don't think he has to die."

Redemption is not the same thing as not having to die. Vader was redeemed by his sacrifice and subsequent death. He could not have been redeemed without his death. You originally stated that Ben could be redeemed without such a sacrifice - "I don't think he has to die" iirc was what you wrote. I disagree with this. If what you intended to convey was he "can easily be redeemed" then sure, we can agree on that, just as long as dude gotta die.

 

Yes, but Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't seem to care about his past deeds. Hell, they made him younger before he turned to the dark side. Like, all that stuff he did in life didn't matter. I don't know, it just seems to me what Ben has done in the grand scheme of things again comparing to Vader, he can be redeemed without the ultimate sacrifice.

 

He definitely can... To say that you must die to redeem yourself it's like there's no point on redeeming at all. It's like saying: I don't care about you and how you feel as long as you don't exist anymore. So, do you really care about someone's redemption or you're still too busy hating?... Idk, there's a lot of points of view out there... It depends on how much you can conceive forgiveness I guess..
But in this case, its all up to Kylo and knowing what he really wants, which is not so clear, we've only seen him surrounded by his family drama. Cause yeah, he's been through a lot.

 

To say that you must die to redeem yourself it's like there's no point on redeeming at all:

Redemption is metaphorical. Death is not. Kylo's redemption will be achieved through atonement; the death of Kylo Ren is the price he must pay to release himself from his sins. If you think his sins have not made it to this level, since Vader is the apex of sin and Anakin's soul was accepted by his essential family, I dont know what else to say.

I definitely cannot conceive of forgiveness for Kylo's actions. I am sure the majority of the galaxy far, far away cannot either. I would also state that should Kylo live, what would you do with him? Does he go into seclusion and not face his atonement. This would be cowardice.

No path is left open to him at this point, save this one.

 

When your Empire recovers after the destruction of your Planet sized System Destroyer, and is able to mobilize a powerful fleet seconds later.
And No one answers Leia's call.
Logically the Resistance cannot win. Not with a passenger and crew size of the Millenium Falcon.
Short of a Yuuzhan Vong/Killik invasion or a FO Civil War.
When the dust settles, unless Rey is related to Skywalker by blood somehow. I want Kylo to live, somehow. Even if it means he get a KOR girlfriend and have a Kylo Postumus before he gets executed.

 

You see... This is the part I don't like.
I didn't like it when it happened to Vader. I could understand it cause he was old and already lived his life... Even Luke still wanted him to live.
But to me, paying with your death is meaningless. I'd rather pay with life (and with this I mean 'life' as it is... Not seclusion but the willing to start make this right and really make a difference in the world) I don't want to say it like this but could be interpreted as: dude you screwed it up, big time, you don't get to runaway from this, you gotta pick yourself together and make it right, you owe us all, you owe it to yourself... That is the most beautiful moment for me, the after redemption... And it turns out, nope, the dude has to die... :l
But Ok, don't want to start an argument here...

 

I think people don't exactly get Kylo is different than most vilians we see. There is no obstacle in reaching the light for him, in fact he must struggle to the dark against his nature.

Kylo Ren is wilfully wicked. He can be redeemed, sure but without some cop out storytelling it will be serious work to put together a compelling reason for him to change his mind.

In any event I could maybe stomach eventually but only some time down the road. Let him be the big bad for some years and holla back at me later like the end of a subsequent trilogy or in 5 or 6 movies.

 

The way I see it for Kylo to live.
Pro: (Why he needs to live)
He's guaranteed Solo. The Blood of Solo and Skywalker flows through his veins.
Like M70ko said, he could theoretically atone for his sins by contributing to society.
Cons: (Why he needs to die)
He did some bad stuff, and he needs to be punished. Only death will do for said punishment.
To make an Example of him. If he goes "scot free" then all sorts of criminals will commit bad stuff.

 

Yeh, his actions are still twisted.. I can only hope for balance to take place inside him.
We'll just have to see.. But if it turns out he still wants evil. So be it.

 

Of course there are a number of layers you can look at stories with or through, and the heroine's journey is just one of them. Since December 2015 I've been trying to anticipate how the storytellers are going to take the ST story and why, looking at genres of stories and archetypes and such. To me exploring storytelling/creative choices (and finding out recently that RJ was looking at the same things I was) is far more interesting than just lending an ear to generic revenge fantasies, so I appreciate your thoughtful approach.

I just want to note that earlier you'd mentioned that Ben's goal is to access power. I think I'd disagree on the type of "power" Ben is interested in. Patricide historically was a thing you did to seize your father's power (not to mention that Oedipal stuff) and part of the reason the stigma against it is so strong. Yet that is not how I see Ben's motivation. He tells us as much in TLJ: that he didn't hate his father--in fact (like Rey) he can't stop needing his parents. And that is why he killed him--because this love, need, attachment is tearing his duel nature apart. Yet it failed to help and in fact made the pain worse. When Ben invites Rey to take her place by his side, he's offering her a place as an equal. Why would he share such power? Because he's not looking for the eeeeevul raw powah of Palpatine. He wants to burn down all that has caused him pain and make things right in the galaxy (from his POV), like a good little quasi-anarchist.

I've seen a lot of theories bobbing around about Ben losing his powers as his atonement. I'm not sure how that would work if he is in fact half of the balance of the Force. But I can see how that might be what many would consider an act of reformative justice. Also, I really don't think Ben is going to kill Rey. He's full of a lot of bluster and rage, but since he wasn't even mad at her for slashing up his face, I don't think he can sustain that anger at what he must see as her betrayal for very long. I think really all we need is a time jump before IX to put things in more perspective.

But partially it just comes down to Star Wars being essentially about redemption for me--that everyone who has chosen wrongly can always choose rightly. Such it is in fairy tales (as Star Wars of course is), where justice is not based on Judge Judy, but often rather in symbolic balance of the forces of good and evil, or metaphysical/spiritual punishment of crimes and transformation of character as a pathway to redemption. And it also comes down to Kennedy saying over and over that Star Wars is aspirational, uplifting, about hope. So someone who was preyed upon by Snoke as a child, the last Skywalker, the beloved son of Han and Leia and nephew of Luke--he's going to die? That's why LF decided to do a sequel trilogy? No. I just can't see that happening. What a legacy to leave.

Lucasfilm has been careful not to tie itself down with the Skywalker saga's future, and have given us very good reason in the last three months to assume that they are going to pursue plenty of stories (even trilogies) of common people not tied to the Skywalkers taking center stage in the galaxy, so I don't think we need to worry about this song going unsung elsewhere in Star Wars. They are keeping the Skywalker saga special.

 

I think that as of now, unless Kylo Ren goes through something that makes him rethink his whole life, he will not be redeemed. However, he could prove me wrong, for ultimately, no one can redeem him. That is what Han and Rey try. Ben Solo must decide, but so far, he has a bad track record.

 

It's probably too late though.
Vader was redeemed by his son. A blood relative.
Han is dead. And they won't recast Leia or use CGI (At least that's what they are saying).
Is this going to be end up as a bad Harry Potter fanfic with Harry and some Slytherin girl because of some Magic bond?
At this point, it's going to be Kylo Ren being convinced by someone who is basically an acquaintance. Why should Kylo turn against the FO now? He's its Supreme Leader.
And what's the Millenium Falcon going to do? Rey kidnapping Kylo's KOR girlfriend and say something like "Turn against the FO or she and the baby dies?"
*shakes head*
Okay, so Kylo is redeemed. We have two movies where he is bad guy. If you have a third of the episode 9 suddenly says "Kylo is a good guy now". Would it be realistic? at all?

 

I wouldn't be in favor of, "Suddenly Kylo's good." I would expect years of contemplation and work.

 

Hm...
That's interesting.
They could do a time jump to 60 ABY and keep most of the actors/actresses. Tell the audience Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver is also playing Rey's and Kylo's offsprings now.
It seems that the same actor/actress playing different character in the same show is all the rage now since Olivia Dunham in Fringe and Orphan Black.
It would make the Reylo fans happy and the antiReylo fans happy at the same time. Just have Ridley and Driver dye their hair greyish mid production. Lots of green/blue screens and it could work.

Opening Crawl could say something like

After 30 years of guerilla warfare against the powerful First Order, the Resistance is finally a fighting force again, under the leadership of General Rey. Unbeknowst to the General, her daughter X after an argument, runs away with the goal of assassinating the Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, rumored to be X's father......


Make it happen Disney.

 

I think it doesn't have to be that complicated..
He has been pushed to believe he must do certain things (be evil, kill his love for his family, not to feel compassion, etc) in order to become "who he is meant to be"
And now that Snoke is gone, he doesn't have to fight those instincts anymore... It starts with Rey and his mother.
He's angry, has been angry for a lot time. Cause he hasn't been able to see the whole picture, he feels used.
Once he unleashes this feelings he will be left with emptiness and loneliness, and I think they gave us a hint of that in his last scene, he looks far from angry... Almost like he was regretting something...

 

How could he not be?

Even if he gets burnt to a crisp..

I still expect him to be a brilliantly handsome Force Ghost by the end of EPXV (Special Edition).

Kidding.. kinda.

I honestly expect him to go the 'Revan' route. Started out good.. goes really, really bad.. gets good again, then becomes 'gray' in his older age. So on, and so forth.

At least this seems to be where they are going with his character. I noticed the similarities while re-reading the Legends book recently. Now I really hope he takes a similar path.

It would still allow for him and Rey to have children.. which really needs to happen eventually, once they both grow up a bit.


"Ride the Tide"

-SOAS