Is Ben Redeemable?

I personally think that he could be redeemable but they won't go out and say it. For example, he will do something by action. Such as saving the resistance or sacrificing himself for Rey. Just as Vader sacrificed himself for Luke.

 

I still share some of the concerns mentioned in thread:

• the dangers in presenting another redemption arc

Fortunately I think Rian left enough room for a tragic descent of Ben Solo, a heel faced turn, or a heroic sacrifice.
Though I still don't feel strongly either way (Ben's arc is different enough to Anakin's for me) I do think Luke at least owes Ben some kind of apology.

• the painting of villains as incompetent

Sure Hux was heavily used (abused?) for comic relief (as was Luke) but these characters are still serious badasses even when they're not being solemn.

Spoiler: John Cleese Explains The Difference Between Serious And Solemn

• and the loss of a big bad.

A big loss, but in a way it's exciting having an unhinged man-child in charge of the baddies instead of the sneaky and wise Snokeror.

 

I think alot of that is you projecting what you would like to see from the character rather then the actual way he has been presented on screen which is a bit of a comedic baffoon who other characters mock and who the director cuts to for some comedy.

So i have to say i really hope your wrong i can't imagine a more disappointing end to the trilogy then them having to take down the comic relief. would be like finding out BB8 is actually the chosen one who has to bring balance to the force.

Each to their own though, but ive got everything crossed that isn't the direction they go in.

 

Ouch. Patronising much.

Hux has the command of the troops. That is his power. By the end of TLJ he is bearing the brunt of jokes no longer. He has already worked out that Kylo’s force power is also his weakness and I’m sure he’ll use that knowledge in episode 9 to his advantage.

I don’t know what Kylo would pursue as supreme leader or what would be his trajectory towards redemption. He may try to emulate Vader again and start wearing the intimidation mask. I doubt he will become an arch-baddy like the emperor or Snoke, but he may try. I, unlike others, don’t think those throne baddies are truly necessary to the story. The dynamic between Hux and Kylo is much more interesting.

 

i didn't like Hux in TFA when i first saw it to be honest. i thought he was a barking seal in a shiny suit.
but when you compare him to the old Imperials he's, yes, young and inexperienced, but he's also both careful and ruthless in a way villains like Krennic are not.
he does everything right in TFA; all the failure is on Phasma and Ren.

and i don't disagree that Johnson did him no favors by throwing him around.
but again, tearing him down only makes him more dangerous.
and quite possibly sets him up to rise in an unexpected way for most of the audience.
formidable bullies are made from having been bullied themselves.

Hux remains the only person in the FO who isn't afraid of Ren, even when Ren is capable of killing him with a thought.
that counts for something. and Snoke talks about the rabid cur being a sharp tool.
that line is in there for a variety of reasons, but also to remind us that Hux is still a weapon and whoever controls him wields him.

Ren is not going to be able to control him. Hux's desire for power is too strong.

i'll admit some of my opinion of Hux comes from secondary sources in which we learn a lot more about his very particular mindset.
but again, just because he failed in TLJ, doesn't mean we should write him off.
might as well write off Han in carbonite or, again, Ren in the snow on Starkiller.

if you are looking for a big bad who wields Force powers so that there can be a lightsaber showdown or something of that ilk, then yeah, you may be disappointed. frankly, i'd find it refreshing to take a different tact with this war altogether. and i'd welcome a less "magical" menace.

 

everything you just said......... was bang on

in some ways, Hux is more dangerous to the galaxy than the big bad villains of the past. I don't think he wants them to bow down to him.. i think he just wants to burn the lot down.

 

When JJ isn't laying the focus on the relationship between Kylo and Hux, and when JJ doesn't make Hux a main villain, then I will hunt him down personally!

 

i'll bring the dogs. ; D

 

Dogs? Bring the Varactyl!

 

Sorry that was rude of me i didn't mean it to be patronising i'm just really surprised anyone would want him to be the main villain, considering how he has been portrayed in the last Jedi. he's the brunt of the jokes for the whole film, the film opens with him been made fun of by Poe, he's then dragged around by snoke and beaten up by Kylo, he's never made to look particularly wise cunning, clever or formidable in anyway what so ever. They just make him out to be a bit of a comic relief pompous pantomime villain.

Your story does need something for your heroes to go up against and even if that isn't a big bad like a emperor or a Snoke. Hux hasn't been portrayed as clever enough to be a mastermind type villain, or strong enough to be a physical threat. He's just been portrayed as a joke. Maybe you can have a few storyline of Hux been anoid with Kylo and trying to undermine him but take over as leader of the first order? in every was possible i would find it so anti climatic if the guy whose plan they have to defeat at the end of this trilogy and possibly at the end of the Saga films is a pompous comedy side character, i just don't understand why anyone would want that i just find it bizarre! But obviously a lot of people do want to see that happen reading through these threads i just can't understand why.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2018 ---

Its not just that he gets thrown around or that he fails its everything about the character. He is also portrayed by Gleason as a bit pompous in a comedic way. he is never portrayed as particularity clever, wise or cunning. The last Jedi even starts with them basically making Hux seem like idiot by Poe. I don't even think you can argue he was made to look that clever in the Force Awakens, in that film he was just portrayed and a paint by numbers imperial officer if a little bit younger plus he was still in charge of a base that got blown up. Then in the Last Jedi has been portrayed as a comedic side character, I don't know what the secondary source is, but on screen he has never been portrayed as anything that even vaguely feels like a threatening and mostly he has been written acted and directed as a bit of a joke.

If the only thing we had seen Han solo do was ben made fun of and beaten up by other characters then yes the audience would of wrote him off, we'd seen him succed to, be brave, also a scoundrel, Hux all we've seen is him either be a paint by numbers character or a pompus comic relief character, after 2 films of that its gonna take some pretty exceptional writing, acting and directing to make him feel like even a vague threat.

 

I think we need to consider what we mean by "redemption".

Do I think Kylo, Finn, and Rey are all gonna meet Poe at the Tatooine Cantina for Long Island Iced Teas? Probably not, as fun as that would be.

But do I think Kylo could end his arc (and maybe his life) by doing some good? Sure.

Spoiler: The Last Jedi

In fact, even though he's more firmly in the dark than ever now, I'd say The Last Jedi actually makes me more convinced his redemption is possible than TFA did.

After all, the Throne Room scene showed a really interesting side to his character. I'm not convinced he did what he did to take power, but to save Rey- despite the fact that once he'd secured power, he lost her anyway.

 

it the biggest question here really isn't it?

before TLJ i was 100% sure that Ben would return to the light and fully reject the dark side... but i don't think things moved along far enough for that to happen in episode 9. i'm in a bit of a tiz as to what redemption actually is and what could happen to Ben.


at the end of it all, i hope that he at least gets it together internally so that he is happy with who he is and no longer feels torn apart...

 

Before I've watched TLJ I thought Kylo would start out the movie as a pretty dark and angry (at Rey) warrior who is slowly walking towards the light. By the end of the movie he's redeemed then. Well, it didn't go as expected. It was actually the opposite way around. Kylo was more light side at the beginning and then turned more "dark" at the end.

But you're right, we need to consider what we mean by redemption. For me redemption means he finds his peace and can accept who he is and what he has done. So, he can live/die as a hero or villain as long as he does that.

 

"Restored" is kind of the word I've been thinking of for Ben. It's a little less black and white than "redeemed" but encompasses hope for change and no longer being torn apart by this apparently innate internal conflict he has--or to use Snoke's terms, being a perfect focal point between dark and light. "Restored" leaves room for some kind of dark tendencies. (But I still prefer "redeemed." )

 

Will Kylo Ren reject his path of evil? I don't know. Perhaps. But it will have to be a rush job. Johnson failed to set up his potential redemption by the end of "The Last Jedi".

If I must be honest, I don't really care. He's not that interesting to me.

 

I think Kylo/Ben is redeemable but I just can't see him joining the resistance members in their celebration when the war is over and settling down to some mundane life.

If they want to redeem him, what is more likely is that he does some brave deed that helps the resistance win the war, and then he takes the blaster and ship that Lando had sent as gifts when he was born (in the Aftermath novels) and rides off alone into the sunset like in old Western films.

I don't think Rey will join him as they might want to continue telling her story in books and comics so I think she will remain with the resistance and rebuild a new school for force users.

Kylo/Ben flying off leaves the option for Disney to bring back the Skywalkers if they feel there is a demand for it....we could get descendants of Ben Solo returning to save the galaxy from some future disaster/enemies.

 

A couple of Jhonson's recent quotes:

“In my mind what I wanted to do with Kylo was to take him and basically knock out the kind of shaky foundation from under his feet,
and build him by he end of the movie into someone who’s standing up as a credible, but complex villain.”

“He’s taken the reins, basically. He’s no longer a Vader pretender. He’s somebody who actually is going to be going
into the next movie [as] someone who’s taken control and taken the reins of everything."

" we’re going to have this dramatic moment where Snoke goes [dies] and that means that Kylo can then ascend, actually ascend.
And then that means that all bets are off for the next movie and we can’t go into it with assumptions of what’s going to happen,
because we’ve taken away the familiar element, which I think is powerful.”

And more importantly, this one:

writer/director Rian Johnson revealed that Kylo knew exactly [before entering the throne room with Rey]
what he was doing from the moment the scene began.

"In my mind, he walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke but he doesn’t know yet exactly
what the mechanism is and what his opportunity is going to be [...] when he brings Rey in there, he’s had that connection
with her and what he says in the elevator… from that, in my head I thought, ‘Okay, he knows he’s going to do this but he
doesn’t know how yet’"


First, nice to know that I was right: Kylo knew that he was going to kill Snoke.
He used Rey's weakeness (something he addressed to in the first force skype call)
as "a sharp tool". He played Snoke's game and basically won the game.
The pupil beat (and killed) the master.

There are hints in the movie, but they are subtle - too much subtle for my taste and above all
to make the plot 100% understandable at least in retrospect - just because Jhonson wanted to save the twist.

It's not, in fact that Kylo started the movie more close to the light and ended close to dark.

He took his decision early on. After the first throne room scene.
When he destroyed the mask. That moment is not there to underline his pull to the light (it may be a red hirring), but
on the contrary that scene is there to underline that that is the moment when he decides not just to finish what Vader started,
but to do more than Vader ever did: to rule the galaxy.
From wannabe-pretender to more than him.

That said...

The point is that Jhonson wanted Kylo to become the big villain of ep. IX.
He put him in the position that used to be that of the Emperor.
Not in that of Vader.
And that is a huge game change.
He also said in another interview that in IX Kylo is going to be the one "they will be forced to deal with".

If that's the case, I don't see how his redemption may come before the movie finale.
Because the movie to work, needs a villain (a crebile villain) until the end.
And there's no one but him built to be that.

I also think that TLJ set up the stage for a fight/competition inside the FO. Hux vs Kylo.

I agree with that. But I don't think Hux will be the big threat/villain. That will be Kylo. Hux will try to overthrow him.
That will also lead to Kylo's downfall.

He will be forced to admit, that he wasn't meant to rule.
That Anakin's bloodline wasn't meant to rule.
And blood is the reason that lead him to believe he was meant to do that.
Rey has not part in all of this, because she came from nothing.
He has a part, because he's got that mighty blood.

On one hand, the Resistance / Rebellion will be about to win,on the other the plot against him within the FO will take
more and more shape.
He will be forced to admit... that was not what he was meant to be.
That he did what he did, that he kill the past (= he killed his father, betrayed his uncle and whatever
they'll do with Leia, he'll blame himself for that too) for no or wrong reasons.

And he will be alone as he never was. He already is, sure. But then he won't have any excuse.
Until now, he still may pretend the cost he was willing to pay to become what he believes he's meant to be, was... fair.
Then, he won't.

Alone... and betryayed by the FO.

This all my lead to a great showdown.

Redemption and an heroic act are not excluded at all.
The only problem I see is: yet done.

The idea of letting him survive to atone his guilt, became less credible just because he's now the SL.
In that Galaxy that means something.
And yes, Rey and I believe Poe too - and it's important because the republic is important in this context -
as not only those who took the torch from Luke and Leia, but as those who consider Han on one side
and Leia on the other as surrogate parents... these two may offer to the Solo's only real child an anonymous
way out.

But that to me, is also when heroic suicidal gesture may take place..

Or... he's going to kill himself - as many tyrans do - without being redeemed.

 

NO... he's gone... truly gone... never coming back...

 

Good points all around.

I'd also like to point out- in the Throne Room, Kylo appears to genuinely want Rey at his side. This is by no means Sidious trying to get an apprentice, or even Vader trying to turn Luke. In fact, it seems to have little to do with the dark side at all, at least in my interpretation of it.

Sure, we then see Kylo attack the Resistance on Crait and try to kill Luke. But I think it's actually kind of ironic- in the Throne Room, Kylo seems beyond all that, but gets enraged at the sight of Luke. Seems even with all that business of "letting the past die" Kylo still has his demons.

But without Luke, I see Kylo's role as a Supreme Leader to be somewhat less purposeful. Not to say that there's no point to the character or his role- I think this sense of directionless-ness can actually be a big part of Kylo's final arc. And I'm not trying to ship Reylo or anything, but it appears that the connection between them (whatever it was, romantic or otherwise) is of more interest to him than ruling the galaxy. In a way, I think not only is Kylo capable of some sort of redemption, but I think he's very much in the unique position of being able to use the First Order to a positive and maybe even altruistic effect.

Whether or not he actually follows through with that- well, that's an entirely different story.

 

About Rey I think you're right.
One thing does not exclude the other. And it makes the dynamic interesting. Just because is not an easy dichotomy.

About Luke... I think the point is again plot and twist: you need to have Kylo outraged to make all the Luke's stuff work. And
work as a twist.

But when we'll meet him in IX, even more so if some time gap will be added... hum.

My bet is, he will start the movie looking in control. Then all his demons (and Luke's ghost too, I hope) will come back.