JJ Abrams Says Ep 8 Haters May Be Threatened By Women

There are a few things you @Mike have mentioned I would like to address:

It seems you are fully on board with KK wanting to make SW more relatable to women but feel that her doing so made SW less relatable to you as a man, which I find truly unfortunate. I have the impression you see male attacks in characters like Finn, Poe and Han in the ST that were not really intended, or at least I think they weren’t. I found Finn nothing but kind and gentlemanly when he offered his hand to Rey and Rey’s reaction to this just showed (to me) that the girl had never encountered such kindness in all her life... no sexism, no agenda. Han telling finn about lying to women simply told more about han’s past experience, personality and shortcoming as a romantic partner than slandering his gender. I just don’t see what you see. The only thing I saw was Disney introducing a female protagonist in order to reach out to a female audience, and possibly introduce another female heroine ( like Cinderella or Anastasia) to the collection.

It is true that TLJ was more on the nose about social statements (animal rights/slavery) but Poe’s problem with Holdo was regarding authority not gender. The difference with Leia and Holdo in Poe’s eyes is that he possibly fancied the latter, which made their interactions that little bit more charged and spicy (no harm in this kind of light relief considering the circumstances are so very intense and serious).

I honestly don’t think that KK or JJ are using the “feminisation” of SW as a way to gain the high moral ground and avert criticism of their films. JJ was just pointing out at an evil within the SW fandom he will not bow to: sexism. Fair enough, wouldn’t you think?

I would also like to point out something we all must understand: sexism, racism and homophobia, to name a few, are endemic evils in our society and all and every one of us, to some extent or other, have these societal prejudices ingrained in our psyche. No one is really spared. Saying this, I do believe it is important recognising these evils in ourselves and the world around us and repress them, expose them and act upon them. If some SW fans are displaying sexist tendencies we should all joined our voices and condemn such behaviour.

 

Instead of dwelling on emotions, let us look at facts.

If we look at Star Wars lore prior to Disney's acquisition, women were extremely well represented across various media, including female force users.
The Solo-Skywalker family itself had strong female main characters by blood and marriage like Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Tenel Ka, Allana Solo, Anaia Solo etc.

We even see two other jedi bloodlines known for their strong females:
- Nomi Sunrider-> Vima Sunrider-> Vima Da Boda
- Bastila Shan->Satele Shan

Then there are powerful dark side force users such as Kreia, Githany, Lumiya, Talon, Xoxaan and S'ybil. There were even strong Asian leading ladies like Jan Ors who was a rebel pilot.

It would take days to go through the list of female characters who played lead roles in various SW stories so let me move on to movies, since that is the medium most people would be familiar with. Even in this medium, there were several female characters, including force users, long before Disney arrived.

- In the OT, we had Leia who was one of the three lead characters. While she never overtly displayed using the force, she was a strong character who held her own as a leader and a warrior. We also have Mon Mothma who briefly appears but is in a leadership role.
- Female villain you say, there was Charal in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor (now legends). She was not just the villain but also a Nightsister and therefore used the force. Technically this movie also had Cindel Towani as a female protagonist.
- Then the PT had Padme as one of the three leads (and her host of female attendants), Shmi Skywalker as well as several female jedi including Depa Bilaba, Adi Gallia Aayla Secura, Yaddle and Shaak Ti. (all coded to depict multi ethnic backgrounds). We even see two female bounty hunters- Zam Wessell and Aurra Sing.

Now here is where people can argue that many of these women had peripheral roles...but then we need to look at the converse situation...other than Anakin, Luke, Han, Obi-wan, Yoda, Mace Windu and Palpatine, which male character actually got a lot of screen time and character development?

Even favourites like Lando, Wedge Antilles, Ackbar, Maul, Dooku and Tarkin had barely any screen time and were developed more in other media rather than the movies themselves.

Now Disney took over LF around 2015... so now comes the question- what great change have they wrought in live action? Objectively, the only improvement is that in this trilogy, the female lightsaber wielding hero is a female...however, the focus still remains on the male Skywalker of the saga.

Also, in the near 3 years since the acquisition, why has Disney not introduced non-white force users in the movies? Are they saying the force only belong to one ethnicity?

There were rumors that Chirrut was supposed to be force sensitive but it was changed in the last minute. Where was progressiveness during this discussion or does this privilege only belong to white females?

I am definitely NOT saying Disney is bad or against the introduction of new canon, and hopefully in time there will be better representation in movies.

But it is very myopic to say that what came before was bad and that old fans (funnily dubbed "fanboys" though many old fans happen to be female as well) are threatened by women when the stories in SW legends paint a very different picture.

If we are putting Disney on a pedestal and criticizing what came before, then a lot of equally uncomfortable questions that can be raised about the new canon as well.

@Kylocity ... There was nothing in the movie to indicate Poe was attracted to Holdo. All his interactions centered around saving the resistance, never discussing anything personal or even trying to learn anything about her (something a person would do in case they were attracted to someone).... this reminds me of how a faction of people decided that Poe was attracted to Leia after watching TFA, which spawned all sorts of scary fan fiction.

 

I said “possibly” in my post quite intentionally. I felt there was some indication of Poe’s impression about Holdo when he told his alien buddy “she’s not what I expected,” but I admit it might have been just something I noticed. Quite possible. It is fun for some of us to spot certain subtexts and possibilities in a story, some things that are unsaid or unexplored but could easily be there. As a result I don’t find any kind of speculative fan fiction scary. It is the natural reaction of fans with creative minds.

 

If hearing KK talk about strong female characters or seeing her wear a t-shirt with the "force is female" bothers you, then you have some issues to work through. Based on some of the responses I'm seeing here the reason JJ's comments are so controversial isn't because of the context. It's because he's right.

This is a bizarre rant, but it also helps make my point.

 

I would have agreed with you if his subsequent interactions with Holdo substantiated a possible attraction or if they discussed anything beyond the scope of their work...which was not the case since all their conversations were about the resistance and escaping the first order. There is a difference between subtext intended by the writers and headcanon of the audience.

I got the impression (and I admit this is my headcanon) her look (the purple hair and gown) was the reason for his comment as all the other members of the resistance including Leia, Ackbar etc (the leadership) were in formal wear/uniforms.

Again it is my subjective opinion, but fan fiction about Leia sleeping with Poe when Han was still alive (or sometimes just recently passed) is a little scary.

 

As if many wouldn't know that. It's "la Force" in French and "die Macht" in German, so of course it's female.

 

See, a common argument against Disney right now is that they're forcing diversity.

If we're going to try to use arguments like "why hasn't Disney done 'x' yet?" then we also can't complain about forcing diversity, as that would be forcing it.

I agree with you that it's likely that in time we'll see stuff like non-Caucasian force users.

And yeah, the EU had a lot of fantastic female characters. But the original trilogy is infamous for its lack of women. Leia is an incredible role model, and I don't think anyone means to diminish that when they talk about the OT's lack of women, but it is pretty striking how she seems to be the only woman in the galaxy until Mon Mothma gets her 30 seconds of fame.

As far as the PT goes, you're totally right. There are a lot of female Jedi. And while I think the argument can be made that Padme is a pretty strong character, I do think that in many ways the male characters just seem to have more "voice" in the films. When did you hear Bilaba/Gallia/Secura/Yaddle/Shaak Ti ever speak?

I don't think Lucas had any sort of agenda, but I do personally feel like the new stuff (including the Clone Wars, which was originally EU canon as well) does lend more of a voice to its female characters.

 

You’re absolutely right, there is nothing in the writing that suggests that Poe fancies Holdo, it is just a personal impression. It fits Poe’s character to be attracted to a woman like Holdo, where he heterosexual, all I’m saying. Their on screen interactions are slightly charged, but perhaps it’s just me. I confess I was guilty of finding chemistry between kylo and Rey the first time I saw TFA. Just the way I am lol.

As for frisky fan fiction, I make no judgement. Whatever rocks your boat.

 

Actually they did...

When someone drops the terminology "man-splaining", it's a term used to be dismissive of a man's opinion. It's used in a way that based on what's between my legs, I don't have the pre-requisite knowledge to have and share an opinion with someone. That is sexist.

And yes, daily plunge did suggest that women can't be sexist when it comes to Star Wars, I quote:

They don't ask if I am blaming Kennedy for sexism, in which if they did, it would be clear they are of the opinion that Kennedy in no way could be sexist. Instead they said "woman", which changes the context away from Kennedy and onto women in general. So by their own words they are making the insinuation that no woman could be sexist when it comes to Star Wars. The inverse is thus that only a man can be sexist in regards to Star Wars. That is sexist!

Thank You! Finally some real conversation and not just me having to defend myself against name calling. I appreciate your well thought out post.

If I may address a few things.

I am definitely not going down that road. I do not think they are on some "extremist feminist agenda". As I have said in the thread and others, I have no problem with more woman in Star Wars. As I said, I would have preferred a female villain as well as Rey to give a really different dynamic.

What is clear is that there is an agenda to incorporate more women into Star Wars, and that is not a bad thing!

I don't know if it devalues them, but, it does downplay them in order to lift the Star Wars characters up. I don't think this is intentional on Kennedy's part, just a result of her trying to hype up Rey, Jyn and others. Make sense?

And this is my biggest gripe. Instead of just giving us a good character that is a woman, it seems they were more worried about making a statement. I think a good character would have been enough of a statement for girls, women, and men to relate with Rey (or any other woman in the ST so far). Sexist men are going to be sexist men no matter what they did, but, what has happened is that now that so many have issue with Rey, and TLJ didn't help resolve those issues (her overpowered abilities in the face of no training and no explanations), now any criticism that comes in about Rey is met with name calling of sexism. This sexism angle has been set-up by Kennedy implying that Star Wars has been a boys only club, and she is going to fix that. When she says things like that in front of massive crowds, in interviews, in videos that get plastered all over YouTube, then that is used as the club to which many have beaten down dissent over the female characters.

Abrams is a part of that circle. His jokes in TFA, and the "Mary Sue" issue come up not because the people that are saying it are sexist, but, because Kennedy and Abrams have put that on the table. So his comments in that article, IMO, are a continuation of this pattern. People are free to disagree with me obviously, but, that's just how I feel.

The picture doesn't bother me on it's face value.. I mean, maybe the Force is? I dunno? Does the Force have a sex? Lucas always liked playing with Feminine themes in his movies, especially the Prequels. Amidala was from Naboo, a planet very similar to Mother Earth, large amounts of water, which just like women are the life givers... Amidala gives birth and dies, just as Anakin compeltely throws the Force out of balance by becoming sealed in his suit... So maybe the Force is a female... who knows...

So the picture by itself isn't a big deal, But again, what happens, when everything that is said and done is taken into account, the picture doesn't make Star Wars about Star Wars, it makes it about sexism. People see that, and go into the movie thinking that every character and interaction is about sexism, so after, that is the lense thru which they make their judgments about the movie. And heaven forbid if you are a guy that doesn't like it. Well than everyone remembers what Kennedy said, your just a sexist man that is upset that is boys-only club has been ruined. Which, again, I feel Abrams comments are just a continuation of that.

 

Just being a linguist here but it would be feminine not female, as la force or la fuerza is a noun and nouns are either masculine or femenine.

But good poster for feminism. Nothing wrong with gender equality awareness. As Kk said the franchise is making an effort to increase awareness about injustices and giving back to society. I think that’s a really good move on their part.

 

I don't think LF has an agenda either....my issue is only with the wording used by JJ and more than that, the way it has been interpreted by the media (with no attempt by LF or JJ to clarify things).

Right now, the impression being given is that all those who hate episode 8 are threatened, against women and diversity etc. ...and the point I was making in my earlier post was that people who loved SW before Disney took over loved stories where women and people from various ethnic groups were already well represented so all old fans are not fan boys who hate women and diversity.

I get your point about male characters having more voice in the movies but even the male jedi shown in the PT (other than maybe Yoda, Mace, Qui Gon and obi) said anything either....take Ki Adi Mundi, Plo Koon and Kit Fisto- I don't recall them saying anything either. As for the OT, the entire focus was on Luke, Han, Yoda and Vader (maybe Palpatine)....at the expense of all the other characters, male and female.

The one medium where LF continues to shine when it comes to diversity and female representation is the animation... I love what they have done with Rebels, just like I lived TCW.

I do however agree there is a faction that has a problem with more diversity or the presence of women.....my problem with JJ's statement is that it should have specifically addressed that group and not tried to club all people who had a problem with episode 8 under that single umbrella.

 

While I don't agree with all your points, I understand them. One thing about Finn and the hand holding, he didn't offer his hand, he took Rey's hand in his, twice. It's also not that I feel it the movies are less relatable because I'm a man. In reality I wouldn't have minded the jokes, which is why I agreed 100% with @Moral Hazard. However, after all that was said about Sexism, and inclusiveness in Star Wars moving forward, it was really off putting that they would go down that route in order to prop Rey up. Instead of a joke, it came off to me, and a lot of other men as a slap in the face. I can relate fine with a female character. I liked Jyn Erso once I saw Rogue One. I felt for her as her Father died, I felt for her as she died, but I never felt that I was watching a commercial for social justice where men were the bad guys for being men.

Tell that to the people that are going nuts and proclaiming that Poe is a perfect example of toxic masculinity. I myself explained my stance that I felt Poe and Holdo were both wrong in their respective roles. That Poe was an arrogant idiot that should have followed orders, but at the same time Holdo, realizing who Poe was and that he was an arrogant idiot, didn't handle the situation any better in trying to stop him from acting like an arrogant idiot. Her actions set him on a course to do exactly what she didn't want him to do. I think Holdo is a bad character because she was supposed to be the calming influence, the one with the plan. Yet her inability to control the situation better with Poe was never addressed. The movie leaves fault at her feet, and I don't believe that was ever the intention of RJ. It's just another example of the shallow characters, that I feel, haunt the ST. Black, White, Male, Female... etc etc

But again my point about bringing up the people that think Poe is a horrible evil sexist is that this is the result of Kennedy and Abrams stirring the pot and doing what they did before TFA and with TFA. Now everything in Star Wars is seen thru the prism of sexism. Something that should have never happened, they should have just worried about making a good character and less about social commentary.

But that's just my opinion.


I appreciate your well thought out post. Thank You!

 

While I understand your concerns @Mike about how very overt social or political agenda can weaken the strength of a character, I honestly don’t think that JJ, KK or even RJ were pushing any feminist agenda with the characters of Rey, Holdo, Rose or Leia. I’d say they just decided to have more female characters to create a more gender balanced ensamble, which I think is fair enough if you want to appeal to a wider audience.

KK’s and JJ’s interest with social awareness is completely separate from the films. It’s called force for change and I think they deal with injustices, social issues and the idea of giving back to society using the franchise fame to do so. I don’t think the films per se have any political agenda other than being socially representative. Mind you, I may be wrong.

No problem! Thank you for giving me a thing of two to think about.

 

Yeah, that's not what that means at all, but nice effort.

And that quote in no ways implies that women can't be sexist.

At least try to be intellectually honest with yourself, if not others.

 

I think KK should let the Force determine it's own Gender when it's old enough to do so.

 

I have no problem with diversity, but I do have a problem with agenda-driven storytelling. My lifelong love of Star Wars wants me to give LFL the benefit of the doubt, but it is becoming more and more difficult to deny that there is indeed some agenda-driven storytelling going on with the past 3 movies. This is evident not just from the films themselves, but also merchandising, marketing, external comments made by the people involved in the production, etc.

Suppose you have 2 people: Person A grew up a lifelong Star Wars fan, will see the next movie multiple times, and spend $1,000 this year on merchandise. Person B has seen the movies, mildly enjoys them, and will see the next movie once, maybe twice if it is good. It's pretty stupid to alienate Person A so that you can appease Person B. That's just bad business, but that's what LFL is currently doing. They are taking Person A for granted.

And you know what? If we put aside the politically correct silliness, anyone being honest would have to admit that Person A is far, far more likely to be a male than a female. That ain't sexist, that's fact.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2018 ---

What he says is right on. He has laid out his argument clearly and intelligently. Your reply is merely accusing him of "mansplaining" and contains nothing of substance whatsoever.

 

Beautiful! Love it!
As for JJ, weeeell I think I've heard enough for episode IX. Running to the wagons and the inks still drying on the script.. going Ghostbuster this early is never a good sign.
So I guess all that's left now is to matinee screen Ranger Solo and write the final verdict on this franchise..

 

It seems to me that most of the fans who grew up with the OT and don’t like the new films don’t like them because they have an issue with some characters rather than with the fact most of these characters happen to be women. This has been reiterated again and again in this thread. Most detractors of the ST and of TLJ in particular claim they do not care about the characters being women but about them being badly written. I would say your person A doesn’t give a hoot if parts are played by women. Your person A most likely does not think that there is a political agenda in the new films. what happens is that there is a person C. Person C thinks that some characters are bad because they have been usurped by women and has some distorted idea that behind the representation of a woman in a conventionally male role there is always a political stand. Person C is wrong. Female characters in these roles in the ST are not about pushing agendas, they are about representation. JJ Abrams was addressing person C in his statement. Person C is a minority.

 

Exactly. And LFL is clearly celebrating that representation, but I hardly think that's an "agenda" still.

And if so, I guess "we should have more women in Star Wars, since there were very few in the past" is an "agenda" that I can support. Kinda like saying being nice to other people is an "agenda", or not continuously honking your horn in a parking lot is an "agenda". I think most people use the word "decency", though.

 

The women did not compliment the men in the movie. Every man was challenged by a woman invading their private space. The women did not bring out the best in the men. They were there to highlight their flaws. Making them seem as if the men couldn't get the job done without the guidance of the women. Not help them. Guide them. Leia slapping Poe is an example of this. It was used to bring him down when they could have written some lines for Leia which could have been words of wisdom for Poe. It could have shown Leia's maternal side. Something we haven't seen, and will never get to see.

Black Panther on the other hand showed respect and cooperation between the sexes, and the complaints have been small. That's what most people want to see. Men and women working and bringing out the best in each other. Not challenging them. If Star Wars could have done that. I doubt this would be a discussion.