JJ Abrams Says Ep 8 Haters May Be Threatened By Women

@Mike Your rant was pretty bizarre. It's one thing not to like the agenda behind Disney SW, but you seem to be bending/exaggerating the events of the movie to fit your agenda...

The knee- jerk attempt to hinder a discussion is not an opinion, it's diversion. It's fallacy. You can't just act like the diversion is actually an opinion and pretend to be some defender of morals...

It works like this: You address a certain topic. What dosen't work: You hinder the discussion of that certain topic by willfully addressing a different one.
Leave politicans for that. And how do you know that our opinions differ? We haven't even talked a single word about the topic in question.

You're really trying way too hard... Not wanting people to go off-topic isn't the same as wanting an echo chamber.

It's only flying around among idiots who willfully misinterpret arguments to create fake outrage. Although sorry to say, but judging by your rant, you sound pretty much like the people JJ mentioned in the article. You very much seem to be bothered by any portrayal of women that dosen't fit your preconceived notions...

Disturbing is the right word. I'm not sure if the guy's post wasn't actually a perfect example to the comments JJ's referring to...

 

*sigh* I see it like this.

If you liked TLJ, there's no way JJ's comments are offensive. Either you're part of the camp that throws "sexist" around to those who don't like TLJ and JJ's comments vindicates you and gives your rhetoric more weight. Or you enjoyed TLJ and his comments have nothing to do with you since he specifies those who hate TLJ, despite you not usually accusing fans who dislike or hate TLJ sexist.

From the other side, by not liking or hating TLJ you fall into a portion of his criteria to be considered "sexist". Now it's entirely possible JJ is simply commenting on a small minority of fans who dislike TLJ and that during the course of conversation couldn't make clear the distinction. That said, by meeting part of the criteria, it's entirely normal for people to wonder if JJ's comments are more generalized since he did not explicitly say that there are many fans who dislike TLJ for reasons that having nothing to do with sexism or racism.

I suppose the question could be "Does he have to do that every time he answers a question about sexism or racism about TLJ?".

I say he should. He doesn't have to, but he should. As a fan who doesn't like TLJ I don't like the idea that some fans who enjoyed it can lump me as "sexist" and use (misuse) JJ's quote to support their claim. I had to reread his comment a few times, and I think there is enough there that it could be interpreted as "all fans who dislike are sexist", although admittedly, we'd have to stretch his meaning quite a bit. One quick line to clarify would have solved the issue and there would be no thread or debate.

Maybe we (those who dislike TLJ) are being sensitive (maybe overly) but that speaks to how many times we've been accused of being sexist or racist. It's not a fun position to be in to have to go off topic from the argument you are making to defend yourself from such accusations. Often times the whole point you initially tried to make gets lost in the side topic.

I hope word of this gets to JJ and company and they are more mindful of this in the future. As of now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also watching. Many fans have used the sexist/racist card to derail debate or criticism, I hope this isn't a tactic Disney is going to adopt.

 

This will just get burried and ignored but you are completely right. TLJ is the corniest, old fashioned sexist trope promoter of them all. I'm more worried of people thinking that is empowering story for women rather than sexist.

 

It didn't get ignored. It was directly referenced and responded to.

 

This thread in a nutshell after twelve pages:

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I totally disagree with him. I have no issue at all with strong female characters. This is after all the series that gave us Leia who is arguably the most recognizable strong female film character of all time...I disliked the movie because of what it did to Luke. He deserved a better ending and the writing was near character assignation. It had nothing to do with the female characters. I like Abrams, but his statement sounds like an excuse to me.

 

No, you didn't read the quote in context. JJ never said everyone who dislikes the film is a sexist.

No, you didn't read the quote in context. This doesn't make sense.

Are there a lot "English is a second language" people in this forum? Is that why there's so much confusion about this quote? How many more times are we gonna have to clarify that JJ didn't say what the headline inferred? Or maybe people would rather voice their outrage in a thread and never take the time to read a few posts before voicing their opinion.

Last night on Jedi Council, Kristian Harloff had to walk back his outrage when he learned the context of the quote.

This is a fake controversy manufactured by bad journalists.

 

absolutely.

either people are so angry and bitter that they will latch onto any old rubbish and argue about it, or they are not understanding that the article is an engineered piece of journalism to get people on the site.

i give it 5 minutes before someone says i'm trying to silence their opinion... but this thread needs stopping as there is nothing constructive going on in here.

 

I hereby create the "Common Sense Movement" here on the Cantina.

KILL. THIS. THREAD.

 

For real. It's not even an actual discussion about something real.

It's like if someone made a thread called "Rian Johnson Says if you Like the Prequels, you're a Nazi", and the only source they had was just a trailer for The Last Jedi.

This thread is unnecessarily inflammatory, misleading, and potentially damaging to the Star Wars brand. Kill it with fire.

 

People really doesn't understand what they read, plus the fake headlines on the websites that are for the click baits are not helping much, this kind of things just create a lot of straw man arguments that doesnt add anything usefull to the debate.

 

No, there's no preconceived notions on my part. I made my points in that post, and if you'd sit and listen instead of sitting in judgement maybe you'd understand better. Instead you have chosen to be slanderous.


The whole issue of "sexism" was not started by the fandom, sexist men, or the alt-right. They did not bring sexism into Star Wars or started the whole issue of sexism and Star Wars. It was Kennedy, as I showed in the video I supplied. That was just one example of the many times that Kennedy made issue of Star Wars not being representative enough of women. Which is a fair point to make. If she wanted to bring more female characters into Star Wars for girls and women to relate too, hey that's great. Kennedy laid out a clear agenda that this is what they were gonna do. She started the discussion even before anyone saw TFA.


So than TFA comes out, and Abrams gives us a female character that when she first comes into contact with another hero character, who is a guy, we immediately get situations where the guy and his approach to her is meant to be ridiculed. The idea that he wanted to help her, but, feels stupid in doing so when he realizes she doesn't need help. The "holding hands" joke. The men are always liars joke...


This isn't good character building, this doesn't make a strong female character. This again shows that there was a clear agenda, and the agenda gets pushed to the top, and the characters get pushed to secondary.


The scenes of Rey being on her own, scavenging as a loner, making her way by herself, those make good strong characters (male or female). Showing she can do all that and still have a level of femininity, i.e. A kind of motherly instinct/protectiveness towards BB-8 ( as opposed to Luke's dismissiveness towards R2 and 3PO), I feel was a nice touch. However, making men feel foolish, by trivializing them, is not the way to go. Is not the way to build your character up as a strong female character. Those scenes I mentioned were not necessary. They only served to distract from the character of Rey and the story, in that the agenda was still the agenda.


It's because of Kennedys comments, and Abrams choices that the audience, male and female started to look thru the prism of sexism when it came to the choices that were made in TFA, Rouge One, and TLJ. Especially in TLJ.


As I said, now there are articles about Poe's "toxic masculinity". That because he as a man, and Holdo a woman, well than clearly the dynamic at play (in a lot of people's minds) is sexism, And many have run with that. All one needs to do is google Star Wars Poe Sexist and there are numerous articles about mansplaining, toxic masculinity, etc etc etc. why is this happening? Especially in a series where a beloved hero, Han Solo, pretty much pushes himself on a woman, does exactly what a man shouldn't do, yet gets his own movie? With no articles about his toxic masculinity?


It's because that is the prism from which everyone looks at the NEW Star Wars movies. The prism of sexism, and thus now every character choice, especially female characters is seen by both sides as a commentary on sexism. Each story choice is seen as a commentary on sexism. The fans didn't do this, Kennedy and Abrams started it.


So my point... after all that... is that when Abrams said what he said in that interview, I don't believe he is merely commenting on a few fans. With the choices he made in TFA, and from what Kennedy has said numerous times about fixing the wrongs from the OT, Abrams comments, in my opinion, suggest that he feels that a lot of the criticism that TLJ faces is because of sexism. Of course there are sexist men out there that feel threatened by female characters, of course there are sexist women that see men as pigs in every thing a man does, but it wasn't these sides that got the ball rolling about Star Wars and sexism.


Calling me sexist, slandering me, does nothing but show you'd rather just dismiss me and my opinion rather than listen.


If the people involved involved at LFL would have just made good characters, male or female, and left a lot of the commentary about sexism out of it, than a lot of these issues would never have been brought up.

 

...unless it's funny and you need a gag.

They were just SW gags man - no men were hurt in the making of them...in fact many laughed!

Finn's lie was more boy trying to impress girl joke than “men are always liars joke." (Is that even a thing?)

 

You are 100% correct... and that's my point. It's not the fans that started the whole sexism in Star Wars thing. It was Kennedy with her comments that basically said moving forward she/they were going to right the wrongs of the previous movies. Those wrongs being that there wasn't not enough female characters for girls or women to relate too. Again, that is not a bad thing. However, they do to Finn what women have complained about, the trivialization of female roles (sexualization, dumbing down) in order to make the male roles look better. The message goes from humor to commentary because that is what has preceded it via their messages before the movie comes out.

They themselves have set the environment for these movies to be looked at thru a sexism lense. That's why I pointed out it's not just an issue of men, but, women also doing it as in the case of Poe being held up as an example of toxic masculinity.

This is why there has been the narrative that if you think Rey is a Mary Sue, you're a sexist. Because it's been a theme from Kennedy and crew that Star Wars s was inherently sexist and a boys club so to speak, and she's changing that. So people who don't like Rey getting criticized are taking that narrative and applying it to any male that criticizes Rey.

So it's because of Kennedy and Abrams past actions, that has led me to the opinion that Abrams comments about TLJ aren't just about a few fans, because I believe that in his mind a lot of the criticism TLJ receives is because of sexism or racism (in the case of Finn). I feel this way because it's the road he chose to follow from Kennedy's remarks when he made the movie. (That movie being TFA)


Edit: just wanted to include some articles about Poe. These aren't blogs or forum posts, these are articles/opinion pieces from reputable media:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.va...-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mtv.com/news/3053737/star-wars-last-jedi-feminist/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.deno...s-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi

In that last article, they actually say that Han Solo is the guy all guys want to be and the guy all womaen want to be with... holy smokes... Han, by today's standards is a Harvy Weinstein that didn't understand the word STOP when a woman told him to stop, and holds a woman on his lap against her will... yet they seek out Poe as being toxic... tell me that's not screwed up

 

You are really blaming a woman for sexism in Star Wars?!

You can't make this up. Thanks for mansplaining this to us, Mike.

It's difficult to take anything you say seriously after such a comment.

 

No I am not.. I said that Kennedy brought it up as an agenda, which is what got this whole ball rolling. I never said she was sexist. Now that is all people see in all the characters and their interactions. You really need some lessons in reading comprehension.

What's hilarious about your statement is how sexist it is. That somehow a woman can't be sexist, suggests only men can be... that is sexist.

Plus you can leave your identity politics with your friends. My being a man does not exclude me from having an opinion, again another sexist remark on your part.

 

I hate to make some tasteless and rude comment about reading comprehension, as that would be horribly unoriginal and immature, but at no point did @DailyPlunge suggest that women cannot be sexist or that you're void of an opinion because you're a man.

I think we all need to calm down and realize we're all on the same side.

 

Again, I reiterate that the title of this thread is misleading, and people should very carefully read JJ's actual words.

Now, I am also VERY wary of people claiming that KK and LF are now part of some extremist feminist agenda. That seems like a very detrimental road to go down, in terms of opinion.

That being said, there are some decisions made, and things said, by KK/LF, that do make me shake my head a bit.

1. When she says she's going to finally bring strong female characters to the silver screen, it devalues strong female characters of past films.
2. When you constantly say "Look at our strong female characters!!" versus letting those characters prove themselves onscreen (like so many female characters have done), it gives the impression that your intentions are in the wrong place.
3. Things like this:


I immensely enjoy the new Star Wars films. But it is hard to not think that Disney may be using a social platform to try and further their profits. That thought does make me sad. It should always be about the characters, the story, and the adventure. Never an agenda.

To a certain extent, I understand where both sides of the argument are coming from. Just be careful to not go too extreme in your stance. There's no benefit that will come of that.

 

Thank you kind Sir for your generous clarification. I shall only use the Queens English when addressing you or the much beloved cinematic masterpiece known as The Last Jedi.