JJ Abrams Says Ep 8 Haters May Be Threatened By Women

And i thank you for a healthy debate. As Yoda once said "hate leads to suffering"

 

Am I becoming part of the problem, a random user at the Internet? It's a much bigger issue that the actual creators of this trilogy only talk about certain type of criticism over and over again.

Because that's what I've been trying to say the whole time.

 

Here's how I see it- we're discussing two entirely different ideas. You guys want to discuss criticisms against TLJ. That's fine. There's like a hundred threads for that on these forums alone.

LFL et. al are discussing specifically the sexism charges. Not all criticisms. As I said, they could be a little more clear. But trust me, JJ has been around the bend before. He knows that movies can be criticized for things other than sexism/ etc. Heck, I think Into Darkness is an absolutely abysmal film, and my opinion has almost nothing to do with the few awkward moments of the male gaze in it (In my opinion, Khan's portrayal is a far worse offender).


What I see as potentially problematic is who we decide to play Devil's Advocate for. If LFL is directly addressing sexism, and it's met with opposition, I will not agree with that opposition.

It's like if we're having a discussion on the damage of serial killers, and someone says "hey, I'm a person and I'm not a serial killer. Why aren't we talking about me?". It kinda makes that person look suspicious, doesn't it?

Because not only is that irrelevant to the discussion we're having, it distracts from the topic and deflects criticism from those who really deserve it. Sexists (and serial killers!) don't need or deserve for you to defend them.

 

No.. The story line just sucks JJ.

 

Wait a sec? Who is defending sexists or serial killers? Why, because people don't say "sexism is bad" with every other breath, maybe I should do that so I don't get accused of defending sexism... Or are you saying people are defending sexism because they expect Abrams to put his comments into perspective? By not putting his own comments into perspective, he leaves his comments open to being taken the way they have. I don't think that is done by accident on his part if we are honest.

If all you want to do or to hear is people constantly saying "sexism is bad" and anything else other than that is "defending" sexism, than that is a problem. Because certainly part of the discussion can be, and should be is perspective! How big of a problem is sexism when it comes to the criticisms of the characters in TLJ?

Instead what just happened by your own comments is that people should discuss things the way you see fit, your way, otherwise they risk being pointed out as defending sexists. You essentially just did the same thing that many in this thread are accusing JJ of doing. Using sexism to try and silence certain opinions that you don't like.

 

I just can't understand why the people that are in the group that JJ is in have to be so divisive. I haven't seen where one person has said..I hate the new SW because the lead is a female. But they have to come up with some progressive theory as to why someone doesn't like their wittle bitty movie. How about make a movie that you know the fans will love as well as the casual movie goer. Chances are that if the fans love it, the other group will too, more so than the other way around.

 

Jesus christ. What planet does he live on?

i feel like such an alien in the modern world. It's all just gone b5tsh!t crazy

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2018 ---

No that's wrong. It's 2018 now and we have to put each other in groups like 'men' 'women' 'millennials' 'liberals' 'conservatives' etc The most extreme voices speak for every group and we should all feel terrible for the the hate our group we've been assigned to is spewing. All men are sexist rapists, all women are strong virtuous victims of oppression, all white people are born with a masterkey like privilege that lets them climb as high as they want in society because of their skin colour, all poor people deserve their position because they're just jealous losers, everyone who votes left is a sjw, every right winger is a bible bashing redneck sycophanmt etc.

Rational, objective thinking is not allowed in 2018. Neither is having any kind of individuality or a different opinion to the mainstream. If you had any problems with this film it's because you're a sexist pig. Deal with it

 

Are you legitimately confused?

I mean, yeah, I do think people should see things my way when it comes to whether or not sexism is bad...

And all I'm saying is that JJ is not talking about you. You have no reason to be offended.

And no, being opposed to sexism is not the same thing as sexism. It is something that I have no tolerance for, and neither should anyone else.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure we're probably on the same page here, and I'm sorry if you feel attacked, by me or JJ. All I'm saying is, maybe instead of the conspiracy theories about how this is apparently being done to defend a movie that JJ didn't even write, perhaps it's just a commentary on the very real fact that outside of our individual bubbles there has been many controversial cases of people taking issue with women in Star Wars. Visit any YouTube comment section if you need proof of that- you'll never find a hive full of more scum and villainy.

edit: Hey @Mike, legitimately trying to meet you on common ground here, man. Why the dislike?

 

All a deflection to what I wrote about... all straw-mans to what I was responding too...

again here is what you said:

That is what I responding too. You are trying to turn people into serial killer defenders and sexism defenders because they don't like what Abrams said, because you don't like what they are saying in response to what Abrams is saying.

No one is defending sexism, you trying to draw that parallel is ridiculous. To try to and turn people into sexism defenders because you don't like how they are responding to Abrams comments is absurd.

 

Of course, the ironic thing is Episode VIII turned Rey into a doormat for Kylo Ren. No wonder Daisy Ridley doesn't want to do any more Star Wars movies and disliked Rian Johnson's ideas.

This movie is no feminist statement. Quite the opposite, actually. Leia was more interesting and fleshed out in The Empire Strikes Back 30+ years ago than Rey was in this film. Heck, Leia gets to fly the Falcon at the end of that film.

 

Ah, that's what you were worried about? It was just a callback to this section, a bit of an apparently poorly placed joke:

And even though my attempt at a humorous callback appears to have fallen flat, I still stand by the above- by getting all worked up about JJ's claim here, it's potentially damaging to the legitimate point of calling out some groups who genuinely are hurting the franchise with sexist beliefs.

Again... JJ isn't talking about you, and I'm not either. Move along.

 

@cawatrooper is absolutely right about this imo. JJ is addressing a specific criticism here. By constantly having this knee-jerk contrarian attitude every time racism or misogyny is brought up, you're getting part of the problem. If JJ's not talking about you than move along. But don't try to hinder discussion about it.

 

No.. I won't move along.. thank you very much. A joke? that's what you're falling back on now? It was all a joke? Please...

If you think that sexism towards TLJ is such a problem, that people who detract from the discussion are, by your words, are defending sexism because they are making it about themselves (sorry if i find your excuse of it being a joke a little convenient), than how bad is the sexism? What level is it at? Show us how bad it is that some people can't have a problem with the perception that is flying around ( and it is flying around) that if you don't like the movie, than you are sexist.

Like I said, if you think it's such an issue that needs people screaming to the winds every time, and all the time, than how bad is the problem? Perspective is needed, and that is exactly what was needed from Abrams, perspective. Instead he doesn't, instead he just wants to talk about this issue, with no perspective about it, acting and pretending like Kennedy, Disney and Himself haven't made the entire Star Wars franchise now about an agenda. So now, what has happened is that people fans have made Star Wars about sexism.

Instead of just going about their business and making a movie with strong female characters, Kennedy, couldn't help herself but tell anyone that would listen that she was going to change all the problems of Star Wars. At Celebration, she basically criticized the OT for not giving her any choices as to what character she could relate too, and that she was going to change that. at the 41 minute mark:

So now Star Wars is about specific agendas. She puts it out there that, now, Star Wars is about righting the wrongs of society and Hollywood. Than in TFA, Abrams continues that agenda. Instead of just making a strong female character, and showing us that she is a strong person, Abrams employs the stupid chauvinistic man characteristics in order to prop Rey up.

Stupid Finn, how silly of him to think that Rey would need his help as she being accosted? Stupid man, Rey is tough, don't just assume a woman needs a man's help (same trick was pulled off in Rogue One). Even though many men (if they have had good parents) have been raised to protect women, especially from other men, because guess what, in general, men are stronger and more violent. That is not sexist, that is a matter of fact of science. In fact men not hitting women is still a central no-no in most societies, it's why the NFL got blasted for not doing enough to battle domestic violence when the football player knocked out his wife/girlfriend in the elevator. The argument being a man shouldn't hit a woman.

That doesn't mean some women aren't capable of helping themselves, but, according to TFA, If I should happen to see a man accosting a woman, I should do what? Wait to see if she can help herself just so I am not silly like Finn? How long should I wait to see? Maybe after the guy has punched the woman in the face?

Than there is the hand holding scene. Again, stupid Finn, how dare you hold her hand when you're running. I really feel like an ass, because when my wife and I were on vacation and Tornado sirens went off, the first thing I did was grab her hand... Not because I didn't think she couldn't run, but, because it was a way to stay together so we didn't get separated... But, obviously Star Wars is about battling sexism, so silly man Finn, silly simple chauvinist man... Don't grab the woman's hand, she doesn't need a man's help...

Oh and than there was the moment between Han Solo and Finn, the, women are smarter than men moment. Where women always figure out that men are lying. The implication being that either women are smarter and can see thru the bantha poodoo, or that men are stupid and always liars thus woman come to expect it and will sniff it out eventually.. Either way, that's sexist against men, but shhhhhh this isn't about sexism against men is it?

So the agenda is clear, sexism is bad, and you stupid men should drop your silly sexist thinking ways.

Than in comes TLJ, and what has happened is we got some really shallow female characters, just brutal characters like Holdo... But what has happened, is because Kennedy, Abrams, Disney has made Star Wars the sexism crusade, now, well everything in the movie is put thru a filter of the agenda. Holdo was a brutal character that is being held up as a hallmark of a strong woman. And because the powers at be have made Star Wars about sexism and strong female characters, there has been article after article written about how Poe is nothing but a sexist chauvinistic pig, that hates women, is toxic, undermines their authority because they are women, doesn't believe them because they are women etc etc etc.

Where as if one looks at the dynamic between Poe and Holdo, both parties are wrong in how they approached that situation. Poe is a hot headed idiot, no doubt about that, and Holdo recognizes that, so she tells him as little as possible so he can't do something stupid to unravel her plans. However, the problem with that is that she just expects him to go off in the corner and sulk, even though she recognizes that he has the potential to do stupid stuff. That is not smart on her part, treating him like she did, than expecting that was good enough for him not to try something stupid is not a good sign of a good leader. Both parties were wrong in this instance. Poe should have respected the chain of command, and Holdo should have realized she was creating a situation that would lead Poe to do exactly what she was worried he would do.

Yet, because the movie never addresses this, and now the movies are about sexism, the female character is once again lifted up as being right, and the guy, is seen thru the lense of the created agenda as a woman hating pig.

That is where Star Wars is now... Yes, sexism is bad, but like I said in my very first post about this issue, when the people that are responsible for making the movies put the agenda ahead of everything else, especially making the characters so they can stand on their own, well than there is a problem in how they are approaching this.

It makes someone like me, who is not a sexist, a man, that has three daughters, that I want to see all of them succeed, and become independent people, and turns me into not liking how they are sending the message because the movies turn guys into pigs and the excuse for people to bash men.

So when Abrams sits there, and says the things he does in that inerview, and I can remember the crap he put in TFA, HE PUT IN TFA... than you will not convince me that he wasn't trying to squash the criticism of TLJ with a broad stroke of sexism...

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2018 ---

I'm not trying to hinder discussion about anything. I am not the one telling people they can't have an opinion and to move along. How does that exactly work in your mind? You tell me to move along and stop talking, because my opinion is different than yours, and I am the one hindering the discussion?

It sounds like you want an echo chamber, not a discussion...

 

I don't know what to tell ya, @Mike.

The efforts that you seem to want to continue these efforts are, in a word, disturbing. I really didn't think you fit into the category of people JJ was tallking about.

Now, I'm not so sure.

I'm wasn't out here to change your mind or even silence you, but just to try to move this discussion into a more productive area. This entire thread, from even its title, is an absolute mess full of misinformation. At this point, I may as well let it go. I think our posts speak for themselves at this point.

Have a good day.

 

Right, because my opinion is different than yours, and my perspective is different than yours, now I must be a sexist. Because you know, battling sexism in movies and making things equal in movies means belittling men...
But of course.. I have sit down and shut up, or in your words... "move along"

 

Wow. So much bantha fodder here.

1. Rey REFUSED to become Kylo's doormat.
2. Daisy said there are currently no plans for her to do more films, but she'd be very willing.
3. Rey manned the guns for the falcon in the end of TLJ, AND saved every single one of the hero characters, single-handedly at the caves.

"Doormat" my a**.

 

That is a horrible analogy.

Your comment was "Rey built her speeder herself so she clearly knows alot about engineering". Problem is, that fact is never established in the movie, so there is absolutely nothing "clear" about it at all to people who saw the movie.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2018 ---

And not only are those movies making money hand over fist, they are on an upward trajectory.

 

I am not a huge Marvel fan. I do like the Thor movies though, loved the Mythology and world building. It will be very interesting to see how they handle their first Female lead. It just seems rather strange that both sides of this argument about sexismseem to ignore certain things about Disney.

I loved Wonder Woman (realiizing it's DC). I thought that was a very well down movie, and the portrayal of the sexism that woman had to endure was really relevant because it fit in with the period of time that it took place in. It wasn't crammed in as a shaming of current men , but, rather an actual portrayal of the sexism of the time that women were inferior than men in every aspect of life, thus not allowed to partake in certain things (ie government, expressing opinions, education level, how they dressed, etc etc.), Of course there are still men that think that way, but it shows we have come a long way.

 

For someone who says the like female charaters you sure sound like someone who hates female characters. Maybe the reason JJ's out of context quote bothers so many people is because it's true. If people can't be bothered to spend a few minutes to put a quote in context and instead decided to be rude, give negative feedback, and rant and rave then maybe the problem is much bigger than we think.

 

How ridiculous is that.. I like good characters in general. Male or Female, I don't care. I don't like bad characters, male or female. I think Rey is a bad character, i think Finn is a bad character, I think Poe is a bad character. I think Kylo is a so-so character, he is growing on me.

I think Holdo is a terrible character because of what she was supposed to represent, than they turn around and have her make decisions about Poe that contribute to his issues, and they never address it. I don't have an opinion on Rose TBH, I'd like to see where her character goes and what they have in store for her.

I think Hux is a terrible character...

I thought Captain Phasma was overly hyped for what her role was, and was just a knee jerk reaction to the initial cries of not enough women from the original casting photo and announcement. They never quite knew what to do with her, and her role suffered for it, would have liked to seen more about her, possibly joined hux and her role together making Hux a woman...

Loved Leia, Loved Padme, as well as many other female roles throughout the years...

So just because I don't like some female characters, I am a sexist now too... unreal...

Again, there is only one perspective here... Agree with what's said on every level of every detail, or you're a sexist...

Bring up how you don't like how they belittle men in order to make a statement about how Rey is independent, and I'm a sexist.

Point out that I don't like some of the Female characters in the ST, and I am a sexist...

My point gets proven more and more..