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JJ Abrams to write and direct Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Casper11, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    And thank god it's not as complex as Westworld. I'm still not sure if my mind is ready for the season 2 finale.

    Okay, maybe not mystery boxes, but he should have left a stone or two unturned for EPIX. And I wouldn't have minded a cliffhanger ending, if handled correctly.
    (Don't care too much about cliffhangers when they cut a book in two parts).
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Mystery boxes are fine but when they are your main point of story telling it leads to results like TLJ where groups of people feel let down by answers because there was never a way to answer every one to a satisfactory level for all fans.
    Who is Snoke?
    Why is Luke gone?
    Why is Rey powerful?
    Who are Rey's parents?
    Who are the Knights of Ren?

    There are more questions posed by TFA than answered and there's no way for a second film to answer them satisfactorily without being a droll film that feels like all it is doing is answering ridiculous questions rather than telling a good story.

    A good mystery box is there but isn't the plot of the first movie in a trilogy.
    Luke's dad was never a point of focus in ANH. It was a passing tidbit by Obi-Wan.
    ESB builds on it.

    That's TFA biggest flaw (other than SKB) is that it is all mystery boxes with almost no solidified answers.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    But you can do both, answer some questions with thought and substance and pose new ones. I liked TLJ but one of the problems I had with it is that it did not project any kind of story for 9. Maybe it was a mandate imposed to RJ rather than a choice. I remember him saying he had offered a white canvas for 9. I personally feel that was a mistake. More suspense for the next instalment would have been very enjoyable.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 2, 2018 ---
    There can be “boxes” placed at the start of the episode and opened at the end. A trail of mystery is always enjoyable. Also, there could be boxes left unopened for a future trilogy or continuation of the story some time in the future. There should always be mystery. that’s the essence of storytelling IMO.
     
  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    The prequels wouldn't have "worked", if it was a bunch of mystery boxes.
     
  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Fan satisfaction is not in my radar. Good writers don’t do fan service with their story points. They create conflict, sometimes mystery, and keep the audience guessing until a resolution is offered. And JJ is a good writer.

    Vader as Lukes father wasn’t in GL’s mind until he wrote ESB, I just don’t believe it. GL did not start a trilogy with ANH. He just made a film that was meant to stand alone. And in spite of that there were still plenty of questions unanswered in ANH such as, who is Vader? What’s the force? Why some people feel this power and not others? Why Luke’s uncle and aunt feel uneasy about Ben Kenobi?

    TFA was meant to be a first episode all along, and as such it introduced conflict to be resolved afterwards. The problem was that TLJ answered all those mysteries planted, did not keep any and did not plant new ones to be answered in 9.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 2, 2018 ---
    The whole trilogy was prompted by a huge mystery box: How did Anakin turn evil? And I don’t remember the first film a lot but in AOFC there was a huge mystery box about that planet Camino and that clone army that only was resolved at the end and had something to do with Bona Fett’s dad or whatever...The prequels are not great examples of storytelling and even those did not escape the standard use of suspense and mystery.
     
  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    It's not about fan service, it's about creating a narrative.
    TFA is almost all about character as most of the plot is just there to service the characters and create mysteries. Those are inconsequential to the story of ANH though. His dad died. His aunt and uncle thought Ben was insane. The force was a mystical power that binds all things. They all have very basic and simple answers. I think all/most of the answers are in TFA but they spend a great deal of effort building up the mystery box aspect they over shadowed the answers.

    I agree. The difference is, you can do both. You can create a first movie in a trilogy WITHOUT having the entire plot be lined with mystery boxes and potential switcheroos. Did he have to have the Luke mystery box? The Rey's parents mystery box? The Rey mystery box? The Snoke mystery box? No. He didn't need all of those to set up a future installment. The OT is proof of this. There are twists and surprises but really very few "mysteries".

    I don't think TLJ needed to set up mysteries. It set up mythology. Now new stories can be told.

    Luke's parents weren't really up for debate before ESB so when the twist happens it just flips things on it's head but provides a clear narrative path for the third movie.

    What makes the Vader reveal so special, is that Luke chooses literal death over being the son of Vader in that moment. He gets his hand lobbed off and falls screaming no rather than even considering accepting this truth.
    The mysteries in TFA are mostly for us, as fans, to speculate on. It doesn't make TFA any less good for me, but it does kind of drive me bonkers when it's assumed this is how a first movie in a trilogy has to be.

    There's no payoff for any mysteries in TFA until the next movie. It only works BECAUSE there is a next movie. And we don't know if there will be an Episode 10 and beyond yet. So he can't fall back on the mystery box that he loves to play with.

    Other than LOTR and sort of Harry Potter, no other GREAT trilogy starts with this sort of premise of "mystery boxes" and it only applies to them as they are largely drawn out over several BOOKS first and condensed in film. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Godfather. BTTF. Batman Begins. Toy Story. A New Hope.
    TFA is great because we know there's more. But as a true stand alone film, it doesn't hold up as well because so much is left in the JJ Box.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    TFA did not offer complex original narration about the Jedi or the force or about the nature of leadership like TLJ but, as you have already said, introduced well thought out dynamics and characters. The pace of the story was perfect too. It was an engaging, coherent film with many echoes from the past. It did not want to be anything else. Many questions posed at the beginning were answered within the movie too. About finn and his possible force powers. About Kylo’s origins hinted by Lor sen Teka. About Han’s relevance in the story. There were pay offs IMO... I don’t know. When I left that film I felt I had seen a good stand alone story about two unlikely force users with a beginning middle and end, and the most exhibiting thing was that that end was also a beginning. I did not care about Snoke and I actually thought that the answers for Rey’s questions were in Luke. So I thought there was only one mystery to be solved (I had understood Luke had left the fight because of kylo’s turn to the dark and I was fine with that)

    For me distributing the disclosure of information evenly throughout a novel, film or a trilogy is the most important task. I do not begrudge the suspense and mystery. I enjoy it and I’m excited waiting for the answers and I feel that the art of giving the right amount of information at the right time is what makes a story brilliant. RJ struggled in that department a bit. His ideas were very good and well thought out, but he occasionally failed to make the most impact with them (an example is the “convenient” way in which Holdo withheld information from Poe) but there were great disclosure moments that really made up for in TLJ, such as the 3 versions of Luke and kylo’s stories in the Jedi tent, or kylo’s piercing reveal of Rey’s origin.
     
  8. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    TFA did not offer complex original narration about the Jedi or the force or about the nature of leadership like TLJ but, as you have already said, introduced well thought out dynamics and characters. The pace of the story was perfect too. It was an engaging, coherent film with many echoes from the past. It did not want to be anything else. Many questions posed at the beginning were answered within the movie too. About finn and his possible force powers. About Kylo’s origins hinted by Lor sen Teka. About Han’s relevance in the story. There were pay offs IMO... I don’t know. When I left that film I felt I had seen a good stand alone story about two unlikely force users with a beginning middle and end, and the most exciting thing was that that end was also a beginning. I did not care about Snoke and I actually thought that the answers for Rey’s questions were in Luke. So I thought there was only one mystery to be solved (I had understood Luke had left the fight because of kylo’s turn to the dark and I was fine with that)

    For me distributing the disclosure of information evenly throughout a novel, film or a trilogy is the most important task. I do not begrudge the suspense and mystery. I enjoy it and I’m excited waiting for the answers and I feel that the art of giving the right amount of information at the right time is what makes a story brilliant. RJ struggled in that department a bit. His ideas were very good and well thought out, but he occasionally failed to make the most impact with them (an example is the “convenient” way in which Holdo withheld information from Poe) but there were great disclosure moments that really made up for in TLJ, such as the 3 versions of Luke and kylo’s stories in the Jedi tent, or kylo’s piercing reveal of Rey’s origin.
    There is however big questions unanswered going forward, like “is kylo to be redeemed?”or “how will Rey save the day?” Those are, I suppose, mystery boxes in a sense and I’m excited for those answers.
     
  9. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I have a feeling you are being sarcastic with that first comment :p .

    He used his "mystery box" to develop a narrative for where the saga might be headed, regardless of whether he was heading IX at the time or not. A mystery box is something to be opened and solved, not to be thrown out because it is confusing. Rian butchered the fundamentals over "subervting expectations" for the sake of doing it and even has said *to paraphrase* that he did the movie pretty much for himself from what I have heard. He butchered what the story and characters are about...at the end of the movie, they are pretty much where they started and Rey still is an "all-powerful" being with no character development besides actions taken to bring Ben back to the light side as Luke is dying, alone, on a rock.
     
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  10. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Rebel Official

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    No, I've explained in the "loved the movie" thread what those things are for.

    Okay, again - which "fundamentals" exactly did he butcher?
    Rian didn't throw things out because they were confusing. The only thing he did throw out was Snoke's backstory, because it was as relevant as the Emperor's backstory in the OT.
    As for the characters:
    Rey in the beginning desperately wanted to find somebody to replace her parents. In the end she has overcome that and is confident with herself.
    Kylo Ren in the beginning was weak and conflicted puppet of Snoke. By the end he became the Supreme Leader.
    Finn in the beginning wanted to run away with Rey. By the end he desided to become a Resistance fighter.
    Poe in the beginning was an impolsive jackass. By the end he learned what leadership is really about.
    How exactly are the characters "the same"?
     
    #270 Jack_Forest, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  11. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    This is a problem I had with TLJ aswell.

    And Poe in TFA never came across as an impulsive jackass, IMHO, so his character development seemed kinda odd to me.
    I was glad they didn’t kill him off in TFA, because of Oscar Isaacs, old school matiné-charm... but then he is just sort of an idiot in the next film.
    Maybe it’s the cons of getting to know people
     
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  12. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    This. I get that TLJ's theme was failure and false expectations, but imo the specific story we got with Poe felt forced, because it didn't really fit the character or how the character was presented to us in the previous movie. I was felt like the story would have made more sense if it had taken place in Poe's teens or early twenties and with TLJ his character is doing a backflip. But then again following article got me thinking that Rian's idea wasn't off and it was me who didn’t got his character in TFA.

    In The Force Awakens, his character is generously described as an outline. In The Last Jedi, he’s fully fleshed out as a hothead

    If you sat Poe down and told him that he’s caused for the deaths of at least as many Resistance fighters as Kylo and Snoke in Star Wars: The Last Jedi, he’d probably haul off and punch you. Of course he isn’t a bad guy in the classic sense of the phrase. He’s a committed guy.

    and

    There are bad guys like Kylo Ren (Adam Driver), who understand their villainy but nonetheless find ways to reconcile their misdeeds in the name of, say, ideology. There are bad guys like Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis), for whom the label is likely a punchline; he doesn’t care for petty moral distinctions, he cares for power. And then there are bad guys like Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac), bad guys who are ostensibly good guys though you wouldn’t always guess it by their actions.

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...jedi-poe-dameron-is-a-destructive-man-1069746

    (Although unlikely to happen) I like idea of having this side of Poe's character to be explored some more in Episode IX, taking it to the extremes:

     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    You kind of answered your own problem.
    Poe wasn't a character in TFA. He was a tag along because they liked Oscar Isaac so much.
    He has no arc or defined character traits in TFA other than "Hell yeah, I'm a pilot" and "sarcastic ass."
    You get no actual bearing of the character so there's basically nothing that could be seen as "out of character" unless you make him a shitty pilot in the sequel.

    As for his impulsive nature, he tries to gun down Kylo Ren then tries mocking him while in the torture chair.
    He's very much an 80s action star in TFA.

    TLJ takes that and puts it in context of a working military structure.

    In most movies, the big push to stop the FO ships works and the Resistance escapes.
    Because the hero did a thing. So they win. Except in this one, they escaped but not because the hero did a thing but in spite of. He crippled their fleet being the hero.
    Finn runs off on mission that normally works. But fails.
    Rey goes to bring Luke back to the fight. But fails.
     
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  14. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Eh, maybe not, but the only storyline that was teased in Empire for what would be Return was rescusing Han; that's about it.
     
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  15. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    Well, Han’s fate, Luke losing a hand and finding out the truth about pops is a pretty big setup, if you ask me.

    And yes, I realize that Poe is a more fleshed out character due to TLJ, but a space matiné movie could do fine with a cardboard cut out hero, here and there, IMHO.
     
  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I feel like you're dancing around your real issue here.
    You'd rather Poe be a boring one-dimensional, not really a character-character than a developed character with depth and purpose?
    Math don't add up here.
     
  17. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Rey was confident in her abilities generally since the beginning, just with a lightsaber at the end.
    Kylo was weak before and felt weak at the end after being beat by a girl who has never used a lightsaber.
    Finn wanted to run away in the beginning and in TLJ also wanted to run away: his entire character development is being obsessed with Rey.
    Poe is still an implosive jackass, but a very talented one.

    As for butchering, maybe that might be a strong word but I felt that Rian did what he did for the sake of it and not for the story...fundamentals of the characters
    .
     
  18. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    One note doesn’t have to be boring. My issue is; that in TFA I found a nice Han Solo substitute - but it turned out he was really an idiot. And, imho, Poe didn’t get more interesting with the added depth in TLJ. If TFA had me buying a Poe action figure, then TLJ made me wanna throw it away, so to speak.
     
  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    But it is boring.
    It works fine in a one-off movie. But in a trilogy? You know who is one note? Ackbar. It's a trap!
    One note is what is reserved for side characters who are inconsequential to the story.
    Poe has become key and needs a story and arc.

    He wasn't an idiot and nor was he a Han Solo substitute (that's a different new character).

    You just want him to be an action hero who makes no bad decisions?
     
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  20. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    No, depth is fine, and that’s what makes Kylo Ren one of the most interesting characters in Star Wars.

    What it comes down to is taste. I didn’t like the colours that Rian added to the sketch that is Poe.
    Maybe you did, and that’s fine. We can’t all agree all the time
     
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