SPECULATION Knights of Ren Hierarchy

If Kylo is their master then they are clearly a bunch of youngsters who were too busy vandalising old Jedi statues to help Kylo during TFA. (Disclaimer: this is not a real theory)

And yes I have a habit of using archaic language

I don't think you're ever going to get the galaxy of mysteries that was present in the OT. Not only because a lot of the expanded material has a preponderance of force users but also because it was only mystery came from the fact the Star Wars universe hadn't been built up then. The PT and other materials have done a lot of world building by now and the public at large associate Star Wars with lightsabers and force pushes, whether that is a bad thing or not is up to you but I think over attachment to echoing the feel of the OT will damage the ST in the long run.

The Finn thing was more in reference to numerous arguments about whether being FS is beneficial to a character so when I read that people like the scarcity of Jedi because it makes them more special it seems to make all those arguments ring hollow. If FS isn't a important factor in crafting a good character then people shouldn't be worried about Rey competing with other FS characters, unless they don't think her character is as good with the Force storyline. It's a hashed out argument but whenever the discussion of how many force users there are going to be in ST I am reminded of it.

haha, don't apologise, there's nothing wrong with speculating and I hope my post didn't come across as too harshly worded. It's far from certain that the KoR are force sensitive I just consider it more likely at this point but by all means this shouldn't stop you speculating otherwise.

 

oh, i get it: the contradiction of Finn doesn't need to be FS to be special, but Jedi are still more special?

just to make it clear that's not what i'm saying (or meaning to say) regarding FSs vs. non-FSs. i'm literally talking about the mystery of the actual Jedi Knights. i just honestly can't wrap my head around the weird premise that FS is more special than non-FS. that's like saying Luke is more special than Han and no one will ever convince me of that.

i dunno. maybe in a weird way i actually find the more FS characters are, the less interesting they become. Luke's, Vader's, Rey's and Kylo Ren's "powers" are the least interesting thing about them to me. in the OT i always considered it window dressing.

but i get it. that's not the norm.

it's hard to tell what they are from the one scene. they look motley, a bit ragtag, and Kylo Ren is the only one sporting a lightsaber. but they're also obscured by the rain, appear to have been through a battle, and Ren's the only one actively doing anything in the moment (the others seem "at rest"). so it feels like it could go either way. if i expressed a preference for less FS, it's just because of what i said above. i connect with the people first, not the "magic".

 

Ok, so first proper forum post. Soz if I commit newby mistakes.

KOR musings: I don't think they were created by Snoke, more on that later. I think the KOR have been around for quite a while, and maybe its possible they evolved out of the Order of Revan/Revanites. Snoke seems to be into Kylo's light and dark side powers, and the Revanites were also a group that mixed Sith and Jedi teachings who wanted to change things from within the system. Also, I think they had a temple to Revan somewhere, so speculatively speaking, perhaps over the years they could have been up to several things;
A) Being sneaky and infiltrating ruling structures of the time to influence and manipulate to their own ends.
B) Guarding their own secret Revan/Ren temple.
C) Searching out hidden Jedi and Sith temples, toombs, artefacts and knowledge to augment their own power and influence.

I think Snoke is using the KOR and Kylo for his own purposes. Perhaps the KOR found more than they bargained for in their endevours, and perhaps Snoke is something they awoke or helped bring to the fore. There could be many ways to do this. Maybe Snoke is an old Sith who found a way to cheat death, hanging around in an old temple and got a bit of help when KOR stubled into him, maybe he is an ancient being who predates the Sith who sees an opening now the Jedi and Sith are out the way. Or maybe Snoke discovered KOR and thought they might be useful to him, he could seduce them into thinking he had something to offer them. Maybe they're tired of working behind the scenes. Maybe the KOR have been protecting the remnants of that ancient Sith emperor who ruled for a thousand years, the one that Revan defeated, who has been slowly finding a way back into a physical body and power. Anyway, could speculate on this for hours.

Not sure if all members of KOR are force sensitive, but I'm guessing, regardless, they'll all be bad ass in their own way. Maybe they have a heirachy with squires, Knights, Master, Grand Master ect. Maybe they have a round table, maybe they're looking for the 'holy grail'. Who knows, but its fun to muse.

 

i have a question:- in regards to the in-film explanation of what happened to Luke's Academy.. was the exact wording that Ben 'destroyed' it? is it actually said that all of Luke's students were killed?

reason i ask... what if the other students knew about Ben's grandfather and looked up to him more than they should? what if Ben AND the other students turned against Luke?

i guess i'm speculating that the knights of Ren could all be students from Luke's Academy?
i know that the outfits/weapons seen in the vision don't quantify this.. but that was just a vision.

it would be a monumental failure on Luke's part, and would explain why he high tailed it outta there.

ridiculous? i think it might be, but i seem to have dropped it here anyway lol

 

that the KOR might be students of Luke's temple has been posited (and seems like a legitimate possibility). Luke's efforts were "destroyed". we don't know what that means. it doesn't have to mean that anybody was killed.

people are jumping to conclusions between Kylo Ren's nickname as Jedi Killer (which is never mentioned in the film), and the fact that the students training at the temple were "destroyed".

you could literally read the lines as:

Ben Solo was the only student. he rejected Luke and therefore "destroyed" Luke's effort to restore the Jedi (effectively making him also a "Jedi Killer" since aside from Luke, who he's been tasked by Snoke to kill, he will have "killed" the possibility of the Jedi ever returning).​

i'm on the fence as to what i believe, but that's just to demonstrate how what little information we have can fit a lot of different scenarios.

 

Could be that the First Order is the more secular military arm of Snoke's organization and the Knights of Ren are the dark worshiping monastic order.

 

maybe! "Supreme Leader" doesn't feel military, but i get that they're going with a title that's specifically different from Emperor or Master.

if the KOR is a separate sort of "religious" (for lack of a better term) order, it's a bit disappointing that we get so little of them in TFA since it seems like Kylo Ren, being a master, ought to demonstrate some kind of adherence to whatever that order is about.

now, if the order's goal is to kill the Jedi (Luke), there are other questions. as others have noted, Ren's fixation on Luke almost feels in some places like an independent agenda from what Snoke's specifically after. i can't tell in those scenes whether Hux just isn't in on the bigger plan and so there's a weird disconnect between Ren and Hux and Snoke when Hux is in the room ~ or if Ren is off-roading in some weird and mildly disobedient way. so again: who's in charge of what and who has the power over what is blurry to me.

i like the idea of the KOR being a "dark worshiping monastic order", but Kylo Ren doesn't strike me as disciplined enough to be the master of anything terribly formal or well-organized, frankly ~ which is why i originally called them a "gang" i think. just an impression from what we're given in TFA, based on very thin evidence.

 

Just a random thought...

I was just thinking about why we don't see any other Knight of Ren with a lightsaber - neither in Rey's vision nor in concept art.
It could of course be, that they are not force sensitive, but maybe it's something completely different?
What if they were all disciples of Luke, but that in Luke's intended new Jedi order wielding a lightsaber is something a bit more special? After all Luke got his as a present, and was mostly trained by Yoda, who instructed him in a quite spiritual manner - no combat training whatsoever. So maybe Luke chose to do the same, and none of his students had lightsabers? Maybe constructing one would have been a much later step, but Ben, being impatient, found some archaic plans and crudely assembled one himself, making him quite special among his brethren. The others would quite naturally have had to use other kinds of weapons.

Any thoughts?

 

You certainly have a unique view of Star Wars which is to your credit but I just have to tell you something......Luke is more special than Han. I mean Han can be more significant/special to you but I will have to break my characteristic consensus seeking to state that Luke is factually more special than Han, I'm sorry. Han is more loved if that helps.....

Anyway on a slightly more serious note, I'm also going to have to disagree with you on the importance of force sensitivity, and the Force in general, in the Star Wars franchise: The force is central to the universe both in-story and out. It makes Star Wars a space fantasy and not science fiction, the force is synonymous with Star Wars. Also shouldn't the fact that Kylo's, Rey's, Luke's etc. force abilities aren't important to you, window dressing as you say, mean that other characters being force users shouldn't matter to you either? Your view would make more sense if you were neutral towards more force users because only whether they were good characters would concern you rather than if they were FS. However, from our other discussions it is clear that you are against more Force Users, I don't think I've ever read your opinion on re-founding the Jedi Order though but I would interested to know.

Nevertheless, I will respect your view even if it puzzles me.

The KoR are definitely quite vague right now but their name and relation to Kylo makes it seem a bit more likely that they are dark side warriors rather than some kind of elite lackeys, especially if we consider the evil Round table idea. That some of them seem to be specialising in melee weapons, I think one has a giant cleaver and another some kind of halberd, is a curious choice for normal soldiers to wield in a universe full of projectile weaponry, makes more sense if they were force sensitive in that respect. The FO has special forces pilots so it is likely they also have commando teams so what would be the benefit of having another group of elite normal warriors? You know what, I'm just really attached to the idea of the KoR being a dark side order.

I should think that if the KoR are force sensitive then Kylo is the most gifted of them, hence why he is the Master, and so he would be the first to craft a lightsaber but then we don't know when that scene was in Rey's vision so who knows what the KoR wield now. They may not have received as much training from Snoke as Kylo has but that may have changed by now, it's all to play for in regards to our Knights.

Not ridiculous at all, in fact I think it is quite a popular theory in some circles of the vast web that is the internet. I'm certainly fond of theory if only to add to Luke's anguish and to give us an interesting background to the KoR, more history between characters is always a good thing in my opinion. Makes the conflict more personal.

 

i guess we puzzle each other. fair enough. i would never try to "factually" account for "specialness". i think that's purely subjective, ultimately.

if it helps at all, i agree that the Force is synonymous with Star Wars, but for me the real power is the mental/psychological power (the power of connecting to the universe, empathy, mastering emotions, being disciplined, centering, compassion, etc.). my argument against more Force users is an argument against more window dressing (the physical stuff), which again, i just don't find all that interesting as an aspect of the storytelling. don't get me wrong, it's very cool and i love lightsabers (really, though, dueling is dueling). the physical stuff is not the end-all for me. it's not why i watch Star Wars.

if you think about ANH, there's very little by way of physical Force powers in that movie. the Force is mysterious and likened to a religion. we get more stuff through ESB and ROTJ, but i argue that Old Ben in the desert was the epitome of the power of the Force.

 

Well, I was using special as in meaning unique/different from the usual which I certainly think Luke has more of than Han. One is the son of a Space Jesus of an already rare group of individuals in the galaxy, Force sensitives, while the other is a wise cracking rogue with a fast ship and a cool sidekick. Need I say more?

 

ohhh ~ well, sure. that's a way of looking at it.

i think i'm carrying over baggage from the Finn thread where people are arguing that Finn is a waste of space unless he's FS.

i'm equating "special" with resonance / value as a character. Luke isn't necessarily more interesting or more valuable as a character than Han is just because he is FS (that would automatically subordinate Han to Leia as well). FS absolutely makes them unique, but that doesn't mean factually or literally calculably better (because that's entirely subjective).

bad analogy: Richard the Lionheart is special and unique because he's the powerful King of England! but is he really a better/more interesting character than Robin Hood?

 

I think using the word "interesting" is probably best when describing how a character appeals to the audience or to an individual because different things are interesting to different people and some characters resonate more with some people than others. I normally argue over how the character fits into the story rather than whether I myself am pleased with the character, as that's not something which can really be debated.

To continue the above point, I think the arguments in the Finn thread are getting slightly confused over how people personally feel about Finn, in terms of being inspiring/heroic/interesting, and how he fits into the plot of the ST, how relevant he is. For example, above you said that Luke isn't necessarily more valuable as a character than Han which is true for different people but is Luke more valuable to the plot? Definitely so. I mostly argue about his relevancy, where FS plays a larger role, because Finn is very much in the air in terms of plot direction and the next film determines whether he slides down out of the spotlight now that he had his time in the limelight as a misdirection or whether he is kept in the maelstrom of the story.

 

i can totally appreciate that perspective. it can absolutely be argued that the OT is Luke's story and Luke happens to be FS. or perhaps it's Luke's story because he is FS. those are all totally legitimate ways of approaching the narrative.

i've always believed Star Wars is a truly ensemble narrative. that's how i experienced the OT and what i think/hope will be true of the ST. is the ST Rey's story predominantly? yes, it can be argued that it is. but Rey, without without FS cannot succeed without Finn, without Poe, without Han, etc. they can be resigned to the "supporting cast role" but that doesn't diminish relevancy (or shouldn't have to).

to apply all that back to the KOR (to try to get back on topic), the group can either codify Kylo Ren's status as someone who is an actual threat and has the capacity to be a real leader and agent of Dark Force evil, or it can prove to be the equivalent of Snoke buying the Red Sox and making his golden boy the "star" coach (or whatever). whether the KOR is FS doesn't make any difference to me personally, but i can see how it would have implications as to Kylo Ren's character and purpose.

 

I believe early concept art showed all of the Knights of Ren with what appeared to be sheathed lightsabers, if so maybe the idea was scrapped. By looking at the various images of the Knights from Rey's vision, they all appear to be somewhat unique, what with their armor/garb and weapons. There appears to be at least 1 Mandalorian helmet visible, maybe a second, which I guess makes sense. I sure hope that the Knights are explored or are more relevant in Ep. VIII and beyond.

 

I think the only argument about who the OT story is about is between Anakin and Luke but if we view the OT in isolation then it is definitely Luke's story. Luke has to be FS because the Force is a central tenet of Star Wars. To put it in a poorly constituted metaphor:

Being force sensitive is like having a VIP ticket that gets you into this exclusive club, where all the action is happening. It's not the end of the world if you don't have the VIP ticket, you may have a better time in another club, but if your friend has this VIP ticket then they will separate from you as they go to a place you can't. Rey has that VIP ticket, it got her into the exclusive Jedi hero club, and Finn doesn't at the moment, he got stopped by the bouncer and put into a coma. Even now we can see some fans, on this site and others, trying to place Finn in his new non-VIP club, he'll fight Phasma *groan*, nary a mention of Kylo and Finn now, or become a Resistance leader. Finn isn't allowed to intrude on Kylo's and Rey's VIP club dance off because he doesn't have that ticket.

Anyway, to get back on topic my preference on the KoR being FS actually has very little to do with them being relevant, at most there will be one prominent member but most won't get much development(but hopefully don't die). Plus, their design is just so damn cool, medieval knight armour in space? Sign me up. I want the KoR to be FS because of how I want the story to develop, namely the return of the Jedi Order and a rival dark side order which isn't limited to the rule of two, hopefully the KoR. I covered this preference in some detail in a debate on Luke in the Ep.VIII area but I know that there is a strong segment of the fandom that don't want that and that's fine. What I'm worried about is why some people don't want that, which is a misplaced desire to emulate the OT. Emulation isn't how we're going to keep Star Wars going as a franchise.

Rogue One is an interesting take on a Star Wars film, one devoid of force users, which I suspect you in particular would enjoy.

I don't have the concept art book but I took this picture from wookiepedia which I assume is from it:

I downloaded it so I could circle what I think looks like a lightsaber on one. I can't see one on the other two but I think where I've indicated on the third figure looks very much like a lightsaber. Also these designs are awesome.

 

I would also like to see the KoR as FS...would definitely add a nice twist! I think their overall appearance is quite menacing and serves them well as Space Thugs.

 

well i definitely give you that. Finn isn't going to have a deciding fight with Kylo Ren because it's clearly a match between Rey and Ren by design.

we can also definitely agree that the design concepts and medievalism of the the KOR is completely badass, FS or no. it does look like the one you circled might have a lightsaber. it would actually be really cool if they introduced some new types of weapons for Force users. not sure what those could be, but innovation would be welcome ~ the middle guy's revolver makes me think they should look to other "antique" weapons for updating.

 

Who both happen to be FS but that wasn't even my main point which is that for those who believe Finn is not FS his place is now off doing something vague with a nemesis embodied by Phasma, a character who has even worse detractors than Finn does and justifiably so. Now surely you can't tell me that you think Phasma is a good character so what does that say about Finn if she is his rival?

Laser revolver, awesome. I also like how that particular knight also has a stick.......doesn't get more antique than that. Also I found the articles I was thinking of that said the KoR were already a pre-existing organisation that Ben joined, one interview with JJ Abrams and the other with Adam Driver:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/12/star-wars-force-awakens-kylo-ren/2

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-star-wars-adam-driver-20151221-story.html

The quote from Abrams seems to imply that he got his name from the group as well, rather than the other way around as some have speculated, but it is not conclusive.

 

yeah, i read those ~ the KOR definitely are a pre-existing thing. we just know so infuriatingly little about them or how Kylo took the name and became their "master"

and speaking of masters and heirarchies ~ having seen the movie again yesterday, two things struck me:

1. nobody makes obeisances in this film. with Darth Vader and the Emperor there was a lot of bowing and kneeling and whatnot. no one kneels to Snokie Pokie. in fact, Hux just barges in on a conversation already in progress without so much as an apology.
2. Something rubbed me about the really greasy way Snoke refers to the Knights of Ren. it feels like he's treating the title almost derogatorily. just something in the lilt/tone. could just be a bad acting choice, though. all of Snoke's lines feel ambiguously inflected.