SPECULATION Lukes New JEDI Code

Sort of as a "love your inner self" type of a deal .

 

More, love everyone as you're all one.

 

Glad to see this debate has continued on in such a productive manner.

But see, I would argue that all of these "negative" emotions you associate with love are not really LOVE at all. Can love or attachment lead to some things like tragedy, frustration, and pain? Absolutely. But I don't think emotions that are superficial, selfish, greedy, possessive and come from a place of jealousy or anger are really about the underlying love.

Does someone who jealously prevents a "loved one" from making or developing other healthy relationships and "attachments" with others really love that person? Does someone who wants to "possess" another all for themselves do so because they truly love that person? I say no... To me, attachments have nothing to do with "possession" because a true love-based attachment does not include being possessive.

At the end, for me, it all comes down to what you do with your emotions, attachments, and feelings of love, not that you actually have them. To have emotions and attachments is to be human. To act on them in a morally reprehensible way is to act inhumanely. Seeking a perfect way is the arguably unattainable divine. The tougher question we explored earlier is how far are you willing to go to protect or "save" a loved one, but there are moral boundaries that should not be crossed. Anakin crossed them, Luke did not. I would like to think that I would not inflict harm on innocent people just to advance my own relationships and attachment to my family. Anyone who is willing to do so just abides by a different moral code. Kind of like the Sith.

What did in the Jedi, in my mind, was that they allowed their fear of emotion and attachment to cloud their collective judgment. Luke's way was the better (albeit more difficult) way and I anticipate that a departure from, and return to, his ideals will be what the ST is all about.

 

From the horses mouth re: Jedi encouraging love.

 

Lukes NEW Jedi Code according to Epilay.

Be kind to others.

Enjoy life according to what makes you happy instead of being stricken by rules written by someone else.

Don't mess with us good guys or suffer my wrath.

Simple. haha

 

Once again love in a mystical way has nothing to do with passion. A true love will permit the loving one to get his own way. A passionnate guy will not permit his loving one to go. He will be depressed and want to die or kill.

These are different things.

An another thread we talk a little about alchemy. Alchemy didn't change a bit for ages because it is what it is. And the jedi code is the same thing. It is not depending of people, of time or circumstances.

 

Interesting comparisons and contrasts between the Jedi Order of old and the First Order of new:

Just brainstorming aloud as I consider these two groups...

• The fine lines between teaching/training and programming/brainwashing.
• The difference between detachment and apathy.
• Disciples of disciplines.
• Orders confronting chaos.
• Order vs. ordered.
• Rules vs. rulers.
• Reflection vs. regimentation.
• Control vs. controlling.
• Mindfulness vs. might.
• Impressionable minds shaped so early by [F]/[f]orce(s) beyond their understanding.
• The necessary suppression of individualities to advance the goals of the group.
• Ideologies perpetuating agendas perpetuating ideologies.
• The result or semblance of self-control by having control exerted over the individual.
• Either side convinced their right, but only as effectively as they were made to believe that.
• Openmindedness sealed quickly closed.
• Turnings and [re-]awakenings are natural possible still in spite of all this artificial framework.

And then...

• Young Luke's incomplete training.
• Finn's unexpected awareness of wrongdoing and refusal of orders.
• Qui-Gon Jinn's differences with the Jedi Order
• Anakin's impressionability and eventual turning.
• Rey's apparent lack of training yet her natural abilities and inclinations.
• Ben / Kylo caught between the two systems of thought.

Two groups/organizations/believe systems -- the Jedi and the First Order -- so different in preparation and purpose, yet strikingly similar and/or symmetrical, at various moments, in terms of power, reach, frailty, imperfectibility, ideals, methods, with a majority of adherents yet a handful of defectors who can invert everything....

With so much interesting symmetry, the pattern yearns to be regarded more deeply, if not to be broken.

Viewed from above, this would all make for an interesting fractal design full of repeated details at different sizes.

JediMasterRobert

 

Attachment can be a double-edged sword......it was Luke's attachment to Vader that made Luke fight against the odds to turn him to the Light Side...

...but at the same time, it was Luke's attachment to Leia that turned Luke to the Dark Side (albeit shortly) and made him powerful enough to defeat Darth Vader.

He forgot Yoda's words:

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for
... yes!

 

I don't think it was attachment that made Luke fight for Vader. It was the knowledge through their connection that there was light in him. The Jedi, Sidious and Vader himself didn't believe that. They thought he was gone forever. But Luke believed differently and was proven right.

It was by Luke letting go of his attachments that he was able to resist the Dark Side himself (as you said re:Leia).

 

Luke did believe differently....until Vader threatened Leia, at which point even Luke lost faith/hope in his father, despite what he had been feeling in him.

In the end, Luke gave up all attachments, which demonstrated to Anakin that it was possible to turn back from the Dark Side. Luke's choice to sacrifice himself for the greater good was also a major influence in Vader's choice to sacrifice his own life. Otherwise, Luke would have been dead, and Palpatine would have been unstoppable...even to Vader. Better a dead hero than a live slave.

But up to Luke's turn, I think there was some attachment on his part...he sensed what no one else did, and believed in it like no one else would...

 

Luke DIDN'T give up his attachments at all. Heck the last shots of ROTJ also completely contradict that notion. And he believed in Vader, because Vader was his father (again, attachments). And he trusted that his friends could get the job done with the DS (attachments), which is why he felt confident enough to remove himself from that conflict and instead deal with Vader and Sheev.

To be honest, this thread may very well be the FIRST time that I've ever heard the argument made that Luke won in ROTJ by LETTING GO of his attachments. Pretty much everyone else that I've ever seen, heard, read, talked to, etc would argue the exact opposite. Because the evidence simply isn't there.

 

After he cutted off Vaders arm he looked on his own mechanical arm and recognized what he could become also in awareness of his "Yoda cave experiences".
Therefore his reaction was very much a consequence of his real life experiences. Rules and Jedi Orders are overestimated compared to "learning while doing".
Therefore the mental and emotoinal setting of the very special character that has to make the right decision in the right moment will always add something unpredictable. Orders can help.. but nothing more

 

Not having attachments doesn't mean you can't have friends or love people. Luke could let go and still love Leia. In fact, that's the point. But you just can't be possessive. You can't fear losing stuff. You need to get above that. That's what Luke does. If he were still attached to Leia he would've killed Vader and joined Sidious as to him at the time it was the only way he could save her. By throwing down his saber and refusing to fight he allowed Leia's life not to be in his hands - the opposite to what Abakin did with Padme.

Luke let go. He loved. But not in a possessive way. He used his unconditional love and compassion to do what was right by her and everyone else rather than himself.

 

Speak for a lot of people, do you?

 

Luke defeated Vader by releasing his anger.

The Emperor was defeated because Luke let it go.

That's how I see it. What's funny is the word 'releasing' can be used as two different meanings depending on the context it was spoken.

Really, you could say Luke defeated Vader by releasing his anger and tapping into his hatred. You can also say that after that he released his anger, as in got rid of it.

I'm not really following the whole attachment thing. Whether it is true or not. Isn't what I said pretty much just sum it up? Everything else would just be speculation. Maybe you guys are just debating over semantics and the meaning of a word or phrase.

 

Are you suggesting Luke bearing Vader with anger was a good thing?

Anyway, being attached to someone or something is to be possessive of it. It's to worry about losing it because of what that means for you. It's the selfish side of things. Unconditional love and compassion is a way caring about someone but without becoming possessive. It's loving someone for who they are, regardless. A Jedi should feel this way about everyone. They must have compassion for everyone. This is why an exclusive attachment to one of a few people is a big problem for a Jedi.

It means they lose focus on the whole (on everyone else) and then act out of the fear of losing this attachment. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, a most serious mind!

The throne room scene went like this:

Luke enters calm and collected. He thinks he can redeem Vader. He thinks the rebels will defeat the empire.

The Emperor reveals he knows about the rebels and they are likely to die. This makes Luke fear. He gets angry. He lashed out at the emperor. He also sees however that if he did join the empire he could save his friends/Leia.

He collects himself again and tries to redeem Vader again but to no avail. He hides. Vader threatens Leia and this is the spark that sets Luke off - the spark that could turn him to the dark side.

Luke bears Vader using the dark side and is just about to complete his turn when he realises what he is becoming. He realises what lead him to this point. He lets go of it - his attachments and possessiveness. Only through doing that is he able to surrender himself. Sacrifice himself. He did what his father should've done with Padme. Not try and control everything because you fear losing it. Not trying to control that which is out of your control. Not fear losing something as this will lead you down a dark path that will only destroy those you care about anyway.

It's that moment of calmness where you take a deep breath and let go of all those dark emotions that form the attachment. It's the rational, calm decision. And ultimately, in the end, it is the choice that yields the most success. It stops Luke from turning evil and it motivates Anakin to do the same, let go of his own attachments (to power and life and hatred) and save his son out of compassion and unconditional love.

 

I think you are spot on with your description of the scene until the 'attachment' word is brought up. I just don't get what you are saying. I think we see the scene the same, and feel the same about it... maybe.

You are saying he lets go of his attachments. Aren't his friends his attachments? Isn't Vader, his father, an attachment?

So if Luke is doing it FOR them how can you say he let go of THEM?

It's like you are saying Luke stopped caring about his 'attachments'. Stopped caring about Lea in order to save her? No I just don't get it. If anything I see him as embracing his attachments to allow the anger he is holding onto to subside.

You are basically stating Luke stopped caring about the things he loves. Right?

 

No, no that's not what I am saying.
Letting go of your attachment doesn't mean you don't love your friends. It just means you aren't possessive of them. It means you are not trying to control everything because you fear losing it. It means you are no longer possessive - trying to keep something FOR YOURSELF. When Luke let's go of his attachment he is essentially letting go of his fear, his selfish desires and his possessiveness. But he loves Leia unconditionally still.

Attachment = the part of love that is selfish. That is about YOU. The Jedi need to get above that and love unconditionally.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2016 ---

What Lucas says here:

 

I love to debate, especially with intelligent people such as yourself. But I hate debating semantics. I think that is where we are at here. Instead of debating actual scenes and the philosophy behind them we find our self debating the meaning of a word or phrase.

Luke goes in loving his father and his friends. We both agree.

Luke defeats Vader by getting angry. We both agree.

Luke throws down his weapon because he doesn't want to turn to the dark side. We both agree.

To Sum it up - Through out the entire scene, whichever choices Luke makes he is making those choices for his loved ones. Agreed?

That last question isn't bait just to pounce on you if you answer yes, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this.

 

Thanks, it's a pleasure to debate these things. This is what I love about Star Wars!

I think this is the problem with this debate, I think the word "attachment" to many people simply means relationship or connection or love. But you're right, it shouldn't be a debate about semantics, attachment is an important thing within itself. It's not a semantics issue. Anyway, this is how I see it.

Let's say in the real world you have a twin sister. You love her. You spend every day with her. You wouldn't be without her. Then when she is 18 she decides to move abroad to study. By herself. Now, you hate this idea. You want her to stay. You don't want to be alone. You'd worry about her. You'd miss the things you do together. You just don't want to be without her. But these are all selfish thoughts. You aren't thinking about how good it would be for her. What she'd learn. What she'd experience. That she'd be doing what she dreamed of. You'd just be thinking of yourself.

That is the attachment - the possessive side of your love.

If you let go of that. If you say, "Ok sister, you go, have fun, enjoy life, follow your dreams, you have my blessing" then that is you letting go of your attachment, your possessiveness and allowing things to happen outside of your control. You still love your sister of course, but you aren't trying to control everything. You have conquered your attachment by letting her go off and do her thing.

Over time, you are able to come to terms with it. This is the training part ("train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose" - Yoda). Over time, it becomes easier. You get on with your own life. Follow your own dreams and see that your sister is happy.

But imagine you didn't let go of that attachment and imagine that you actually had the power to stop your sister from leaving in the first place. She'd be desperately unhappy. She wouldn't be free. You'd become more and more possessive and unhappy yourself. Unhappy at seeing your sister unhappy. But you're so obsessed now you just can't let go. In the end it will destroy her and you. That's where all greed leads to.

That is "attachment". That's what Lucas is talking about. When Luke throws down his saber he is letting go his desire to try and control everything - to keep his sister. To keep his friends. To keep his power. He realises that by holding on he will just make things worse. But he continues loving them. Feeling compassion for them. So yes, Luke makes his final choice FOR his loved ones (not himself) but also for the good of the entire galaxy. Because as a Jedi that is where your head should be at - doing what is right for the whole. Following the will of the Force. Maintaining balance. In doing what a Jedi should do this essentially means Luke is doing right by everyone - including those closest to him.