Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

Rey and Kylo have never met. But perhaps Rey and *Ben* have.

What if Rey was kidnapped and brought to Jakku? What if teenage Ben tried to stop it, inadvertantly channeling the Dark Side in the process?

If Rey discovers/remembers this, that would provide a powerful motivation for her to try to bring him back to the light.

 

i think it's a muddled mess of not terribly articulate writing, but i agree essentially with what he says in the conclusion.

i walked out of TFA thinking the story was basically The Snow Queen and The Dark Crystal had a baby in the galaxy far far away.
the most critical point of those two stories is that evil is defeated by healing, not by war.

i don't disagree with all you have said. my point about Leia being more of a pain point for him than Han is that the greater the hurt the greater the healing.
if he had killed the parent he was "most" angry at (or blamed the most), the lesser parent would have a harder time helping to heal that wound.
he struck out at Han without anger; they had their own moment of [imperfect] reconciliation.
by sacrificing his life Han proved he would do "anything" for his son. Ben needed that (tragic as it was).
the reconciliation with his mother is likely to be more profound.
she is not the "weak and foolish" one--she made the deliberate choices that caused him the most pain.
he has, in turn, brought her immense grief.
they have a lot of apologize for. the both of them.
everything in balance.

 

so many don't see the sacrifice and unconditional love in that scene.. which is a shame. so much more going on than a dad trying to bring his angry son home.

when the dust settles long after this trilogy.. it will be thought of as a magnificent scene in the saga, and not just the sad death of a fan favorite.

love that. knew i shouldn't have accepted the challenge, what was i thinking? lol

 

i really hope so!

but yeah: for now, a lot of people still don't hear/see Han apologizing and offering himself up, or anything going on past the stabby stabby part.
my sister is still angry, though she concedes that for Han's death to have meaning, they have to save his "horribly, awful, terrible, murderer son" ~ hahahaha

ha! feel free to challenge me any time.
i get pretty lazy in my defenses when everyone just agrees out of the gate.
i like to be reminded that i actually believe what i'm saying enough to articulate it. : D

 

That's similar to that what I'm thinking, kinda...
=> Luke and Ben were responsible for the death of Rey's parents. Luke also wanted to get rid of Rey (I know, that's dark), but Ben tried to stop him. Luke doesn't want Rey to find out, but Kylo will tell her everything. This would change the whole story in a completely different direction.

 

Well, no way are they going to do that with Luke, They're not going to fundamentally destroy the character of the OT protagonist/GL's avatar.

We already have a character who's been firmly established as the anti-hero/anti-villain - Kylo.

 

that is dark ~ hahahaha

i know early on we kicked the "Ben left Rey on Jakku" thing around and around.
the timelines, ultimately hurt this theory because Ben was only 15. and the "it is you" line got fairly confirmed as to be referring to the awakening and not prior knowledge/recognition. i even came up with an elaborate story about how Ben brought the Falcon (and how the story of the Irving Boys was a contrivance), but that makes little sense in the end.

still: we don't know when Ben went to Luke and i personally don't listen to anything Pabs has to say, so there's probably still room for speculation.
doesn't seem likely or probable to me, but i ain't discounting the possibility.

for some of us, Luke has already been destroyed. the ST is his redemption too as far as i'm concerned.

 

Sort of connected to this..I find it interesting that Rey "sees and island" in her dreams/head yet Kylo has no clue about it. This is part of why I think the Force/birth place of the Jedi are calling to her. NOT Luke. Destiny is telling her she needs to do this and Luke will be there to help. The force is getting them together so they cant make things right basically. The Skywalker blood partially created by the force has become more or less a pain in the galaxy's ass. I think the force finds a way basically with it's latest creation (Rey) and Kylo's eventual death ends the bloodline.



̶L̶I̶F̶E̶ THE FORCE FINDS A WAY!

 

"[...] it’s difficult when you meet your heroes because they might not be what you expect.” - Daisy Ridley
Luke won't be the hero we all know from the OT. He is a different man now.

 

Lol...such a generous review is he a competition colleague? The author?

What I like about it...is: abandonment issues are perfectly legitimate reason for acting up!
And...Kylo is not mentally ill but rather traumatized...and was evil...lol!

 

No.

He's changed. 30 years will do that.

But he isn't a fundamentally different character, just with the same name and played by the same actor.

And even if he were? If he had turned evil? An antagonist? That would by definition be a twist.

*Points to teaser poster and Daisy's quote*

Some darkness? Yes. Twist? Why would they *advertise* a darker Luke if it were a twist?

Nope. Sorry.

 

@NinjaRen isn't saying Luke is evil.
he's saying he's not the perfect hero we left in ROTJ.
he's done things that we would frown upon.
like...oh, i don't know: losing his sister's kid to the Darkside.
and who knows what else--what other "grey" moments he might have had in the last 30 years.

i'm pretty sure there's more going on with Ben than just the feeling of being abandoned.
he was lied to, for one. and who know what Snoke has done to him (emotionally, physically, etc.)

Ben's trauma isn't just that he feels like Mommy and Daddy didn't love him (we know they did).
it's more about the fact that they failed to guide and protect him.

 

Exactly! @RockyRoadHux and I like to compare him with Bruce Wayne (The Dark Knight Rises). Bruce isn't a hero anymore and made many mistakes. I just want Luke to be more extreme than Bruce.

 

Mistakes and failures are one thing.

Deliberate, morally unjustifiable acts are quite another.

Did Lukes mistakes/failures contribute to Ben's fall? Undoubtedly.

Try to "get rid" of Rey?

Nope.

Luke =/= Kylo. And if Kylo's character is to be made sympathetic in retrospect, it won't be at the expense of Luke.

We will see Luke's flaws and failings, but his character is fundamentally Good. That's what defined him in the OT. He refused to kill his villainous father, knowing it would mean his own death.

Kylo murdered his innocent father to try to end his own pain.

I believe we'll learn that, as Ben, did somethings(?) that will help the audience accept the idea of his redemption, and get Rey to want him.

But not at Luke's expense.

Recall, too, that when Kylo betrayed him and killed his students, Luke didn't try to get revenge - he *blamed himself* and went searching for the first Jedi temple (which, RJ has stated, had a good reason and was NOT due to neglect or cowardice). Kylo blames others; Luke blames himself. Kylo is getting a redemption arc; so is Luke, though of a different sort.

Btw, also note the Arthurian framing - King Arthur (Luke), Mordred (Kylo), Lady of the Lake (Maz), sword in the stone (Luke's lightsaber in the snow), Avalon (Achoo). Not saying TFA/the ST is a retellinf of Le Morte d'Arthur. But those references are not accidental.

 

there's a lot of asssumptions here. both about what's going on in the story and also about what @NinjaRen and i are saying about Luke's mistakes.

a scenario: Luke has some encounter with some people; he goes on the offensive to achieve some seemingly important moral objective. turns out there's a child involved. in the aftermath, he decides it's best to send the child to the New Republic. Ben objects: the kid should be raised by her own people.
there's nothing objectively evil going on here. maybe some bad decisions.

i seriously doubt this is what happened (i seriously doubt Rey and Luke/Ben have ever seen each other before now unless in was in dreams). Rey would have been old enough to remember these two (they're not exactly forgettable faces). and mind-wiping and all that is just cop-out storytelling.

as for the rest of it. no one ever said Luke should be thrown under the bus.
as i said before, he's already under it anyway.

and Arthurian framing feels non-sequitor here, but if you want to draw a parallel, Arthur does a lot of dunce-headed awful things in that story--which result in his death. it's not a flattering comparison.

 

Interesting article. It might be the case but we don't know exactly the reasoning why Ben went with Luke, or if it was a choice Kylo wanted. It could very well be Leia and Han held him back from training until his desire for power and significance made it a necessity. "We thought we could help him ourselves but" . . . His first thought might have been FINALLY only to find Lukes training slow. The article assumes a back story that we don't know yet.

How so? Is this a result of TFA?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 26, 2017 ---

I wonder is Luke Arthur or is he Merlin. Merlin returns from maddness, hermitage and exile to council and guide the true heir to the "throne." It could be that Rey is the real heir of Anakin's legacy chosen by the Force. The tragedies of Kylo, his parents and Luke befell because they all were pushing the wrong heir. They all worked to see Kylo become something he was never destined for. He was seen as the natural sucessor but in the end Luke must come to aid Rey.

 

Luke (King Arthur) was betrayed by his nephew (Mordred), retreating to Achoo (Avalon), from when he must be brought back to help save the galaxy ("the once and future king").

Maz (lady of the lake) gives Luke's lightsaber (Excaliber) to Rey (the heroine) and prophecizes ("whomever left you on Jakku aren't coming back to you, so don't remain there. But Luke still could come back to you - Your destiny calls out to you - heed it's call!" Essentually). Later, Rey manages to call the saber from the snow (pull the sword from the stone), where Kylo failed.

Recall - "Whoso pulleth out the sword of the stone and anvil, is rightwise king born of all England." (TH White's Once and Future King version, which is one of the most famous)

Oh, and "Rey" happens to mean "king." Among other things.

Not to say Luke won't play a Merlin-like role in TLJ. But that isn't the primary framing in TFA. SW has always been a bit of a monomyth mish-mash, but the Arthurian parallels in TFA are pretty clear and intentional.

 

while we don't have Luke's story and rationale yet, the fact that he's sequestered himself on Ahch-To while the galaxy is plummeting into darkness, having been entrusted with (and losing) his nephew (and therefore being part of the reason the galaxy is plummeting) is pretty bleak stuff--not the hero of the OT we ended on in RotJ. also, in particular, abandoning his sister is egregious even if losing Ben was unavoidable.

i fully accept that he needed this break for perspective, to gain knowledge, or to avoid doing something even more catastrophic (like confronting and killing Ben). but again, it's not the brash heroism that made him so righteous in the OT.
and the fact that he went along with Leia in terms of keeping Ben's heritage from him shows he possibly made some questionable choices along the way.

i'm not condemning him. he's human. but he's part of what made this mess and it's his responsibility to help clean it up.

 

Erm, not sure RJ really agrees with your take on Luke's exile...

Couldn't copy-paste for some reason, so I screenied the relevant info.

 

i didn't call Luke a coward. i said he made some bad choices.