Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

No more prophecies or chosen ones for me please.

But a separate, hidden agenda from Snoke he does have:

• Kylo Ren wants to kill (or at least confront) the Last Jedi, whereas Snoke seems to be content to just ensure Luke does not return.
• Snoke wants to either recover or destroy the droid, whereas Kylo Ren is okay with letting the droid get back to the Resistance while he probes the mind of Rey for the map to Skywalker.
• Kylo wants to find Luke. Snoke fears finding Luke.
• Snoke tells Ren to bring the girl to him, while Kylo wants to be her teacher. I doubt Snoke would be okay with that.
• Kylo wants to finish what Vader started. Snoke believes Vader's downfall was sentiment... which seems to be Kylo's weakness.
• Snoke orders Hux to destroy the Ileenium system. Ren disagrees: 'No—Supreme Leader, I can get the map from the girl, that will be the end of it. I just need your guidance.’

These are just examples of Kylo Ren's own heretofore-unknown agenda, which I would argue he does a fairly good job of keeping hidden. While he cannot help but to be contrarian to Snoke, his agenda is still hidden insofar as we still don't know what it really is.

None taken! I just thought it was funny...

Lothal certainly does seem drunk and slovenly... with that:

Barkeep, two Lothalian dark ales, please!

Borrowing a post from another thread, I have a question as it pertains to Kylo and the Knights of Ren:

Snoke refers to Kylo Ren as the Master of the Knights of Ren. I am not entirely up-to-date on Episode VIII spoilers, but... Is there any chance that Snoke calls Kylo their master because he has already defeated them and they are no more?

In other words, suppose Kylo learned of the Acolytes of the Beyond, who non-violently worshiped Vader, perhaps even joining their ranks before he destroyed Luke's reborn Jedi Order. Although it has been suggested that the AOTB militarized and morphed into the Knights of Ren, I do not see anything in particular in Rey's Force-vision about the Knights of Ren that venerates Vader. So, what if the Knights of Ren were actually the name of Luke Skywalkers' students? I thought I read somewhere that one meaning of "Ren" was "rebirth" ... as in the reborn Jedi Order, perhaps? Luke was in search of Jedi lore and perhaps instead the Ren is related to the earliest Jedi and/or their temple. In that sense, "Master of the Knights of Ren" is another way to describe Kylo Ren as "Jedi Killer" ("Kill the Ren"). An interesting twist on this is that I certainly perceived some sarcasm or disdain in Snoke's voice when he said to Kylo, "Even you, Master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test."

Just a thought... but it makes me wonder if our assumption about who the Knights of Ren are is misplaced and they are not necessarily the bad guys... let alone a group respected by Snoke. There may well be canon sources I am unaware of that will debunk this idea...

 

ackkkk! i didn't meant it that way. i just meant in the way of the "awakening". something is portentous in the Force.

absolutely! and nicely cataloged. but his agenda is not necessarily against Snoke malignantly. otherwise he's doing a lousy job of concealing it. he's open about this agenda (throws it right in Hux's face). if he was genuinely plotting against Snoke, seems like Snoke would know it and/or Hux would have ratted him out much worse than he actually does. Hux maybe hates Ren, but he doesn't think him a traitor (and Hux seems pretty shrewd).

i've been kicking this around and around for some time. i absolutely think they are not what they seem.
Snoke does not appear to value them. he does not perceive them as a threat nor perhaps particularly useful (his apprentice, their master, is barely useful himself).

i think they are either Luke's other pupils and/or the AotB.

i like that take on "Jedi Killer" too. i've wondered whether it could refer to the task of killing Luke (the only actual Jedi), if it's self referential: a Jedi who is a killer, or, as you describe, literal or metaphorical in reference to ending the Jedi line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully suspect the Snoke knows that Kylo Ren is a risk. It seems as though he has been holding back in his training of Kylo, perhaps trying to foster something within him, but knowing he is expendable if he fails to completely fall in line. He seems to be just fine with the competitive nature between Kylo and Hux, perhaps waiting to see who will "win" between them. Likewise, it is just a feeling I have that Kylo doesn't completely buy into Snoke's vision either... he clearly has his own agenda and knows that Snoke is using him and will eventually try to crush him. For now, they both see some value in one another and treat each other as a tool for in their ultimate end game, whatever that may be.

The thing that I have trouble reconciling is that in the Force-vision Kylo is clearly standing with the Knights of Ren. Perhaps this was before Ben Solo began his turn and was the event where he first exhibited his overt dark tendencies. If the Knights of Ren were Luke's students, they may have opposed him for it, causing him to turn on and slaughter them. But they certainly seem to fall in line with him in that dark and ominous scene. In addition, none of them are brandishing weapons that suggest any Jedi training. Perhaps his "destroying" it all was actually converting them to his Vader inspired cause and later he kills them protecting a younger Rey.

In any event, I agree that all is not as it seems. The Knights of Ren are a compelling piece to consider and I can't wait until we are able to properly stitch all this together...

Ha ha! That it is my friend, that it is.

 

True that.



The ST may also echo past SW themes about Jedi education, omission of knowledge and resulting curiosity. Ben had information witheld from him by his parents and Luke - some dangers in using ignorance as protection have already been explored...

 

That's entirely different. The Jedi knew nothing of Plagueis' experiments as these were conducted by a Sith during a 1000 year "absence". Only his apprentice: Sidious knew of such things. It was also believed by the Jedi that there was no life after death and no prolonging of life within the physical realm. Palpatine was lying through his teeth when he said that.

Also, Anakin was barely ever kept in the dark by the Jedi Council, Palpatine just planted enough seeds of doubt in Anakin's mind over the space of 13 years. Ignorance for protection with Kylo Ren is a new concept for the saga.

 

yup, there's a great episode in the clone wars... er.. i wanna say season 6 but it could be 5, where Yoda first hears Qui-Gon speaking to him and he and everyone else thinks he's going nuts. they definitely confirm that they had believed there was no existence after death.

worth a watch if you haven't seen it.. i'm sure someone here will know the episode title.

 

I've watched the whole series, let me bring up the season six library. It's the last completed arc of TCW: comprises of Voices, Destiny, and concludes with Sacrifice.

 

thanks @Alex Sebire, it's not something i can lookup here at work.

canon-wise... that whole section of Clone Wars is hugely important, and a must watch for anyone that hasn't seen it. It covers the Sifo-Dyas story as well if i'm not mistaken.. who i still think is potentially alive out there.. somewhere.

 

Yeah, a Sifo Dyas illusion makes a cameo appearance in Sacrifice, but his backstory is covered in the episode before this arc: The Lost One.

Spoiler: Sifo Dyas Spoilers

Sifo Dyas was killed by the Pyke Syndicate on the orders of Dooku during a diplomatic mission on Felucia and his remains were cremated by a local tribe.

 

That was a fantastic ending to TCW, IMO. Tied up a few knots and opened a few doors.

Just FYI to all: I know a few here on this thread are still working through season 5, so don't give too much away!

 

Yeah, a certain someone in particular may still be on season 4, 5 if they've hurried up .

 

oops, apologies for spoilers.

i thought i was the last SW fan to watch the Clone Wars lol

 

i agree Snoke has been keeping Ren on a long leash--he's training him, but not really. my sense of him acknowledging that Snoke is just using him, though, goes back to that abuse mentality: i'm being used but i am complicit in it, so i deserve what i get. i look at his behavior in the holochamer toilet room: he takes a pass at being unruly with Snoke (he doesn't fear to speak his mind), but immediately goes back to trying to please him when Hux barges in. part of that is trying to get him to not fire the weapon again, but it's also indicative of their dynamic: i'm angry and frustrated, but look, look: i can be good! he does this multiple times in the book where it's far more obvious (and frankly, disturbing).

so yes, i agree in a way that they are using each other, but I guess I don't see Ren really choosing it so much as thinking he's got no other option. like a street kid who turns to prostitution: if i don't do this, i don't eat and i don't have anywhere to stay.

anyway, this is what i see going on between them. Ben was convinced to make a decision based on Snoke's prodding (designed specifically to separate him from his family), and now he's stuck in the bargain, which he has been deluded to think is the "right" path to his destiny, even if it's killing him.

i don't have a solid theory of how this would work.

Snoke turns Ben, Ben lures the students to the KoR and Snoke sucks their brains/powers out? turns them into mindless thralls? i dunno.
the incident in the Forceback is too ambiguous for me to have any sense of. is he killing one of his own knights to protect someone?
that's all i get out of it. i don't buy Hidalgo's "misidentified" remark unless Johnson decided to change something really late in the game.

or the scene could be Ben taking over the existing KoR by killing the previous leader since we know they came before him? either way, i'm burning curious where these guys are hanging out while Ren is stuck with Hux on the Finalizer. no wonder those guys hate each other.

i kinda wandered off during it all.
i so fail at Star Wars on some levels ~ hahaha
that said, i'm enjoying Rebels more than i expected.

but it's not a new concept.

Luke and Leia were raised in ignorance (which, to me, makes it doubly awful that Han and Leia then did it to their own kid!).

 

same here.

i almost want a good ending for Ben and Leia more than i want good star wars movies. it's remotely possible that i'm becoming too attached to these characters lol

the thing is, and i'll put my usual 'in my opinion' stamp on this before i say it.. for Colin Trevorrow to give us an all singing n dancing happy ending (which is not a forgone conclusion of course) the remaining OT characters need a happy ending. TFA did not have a happy ending, it had a cataclysmic sized sad ending.. saddest ending i've seen since Spock died for the good of the many. If they are to build up to a big ending in ep9.. then our hero's will be badly up against it by the end of ep 8.

Maybe it's just me, but i've become emotionally embroiled in Ben's story and i feel that (so far) it's the heart of this new trilogy. It worries me that others don't see it that way.. because that means that maybe i'm seeing it wrong and that it won't go the way i hope.

 

For me Kylo is a bit of summarize of the lacks of our modern society just transferred in the SW galaxy.
With a "great" parents generation that was highly engaged in big historical events but therefor with little time for the smaller duties right in front of them. The next generation has to grow up in the shadow of their famous parents that push hard for the greater good. How to be enough to get recognized between all this "greatness"? Looking for role models they are easy victims for charismatic rulers that just have to promise that they will help you to become as admirable as your overshadowing and idealized stars. In a kind of selfdestructive complex motivation they try to do their best to gain some value.. The result can be watched in TFA..

 

I can accept that you are attached to Ben and Leia's story the most and that you care for them to have a good ending. In case Ben returns to Leia and both are alive + maybe with Rey as a companion/close friend etc to Ben, we have a very happy ending from one part of the family. But on the other hand I expect that at the same time Luke will be dead, has no offspring and did not start the new Jedi order. So maybe you can try to understand that I will feel terribly disappointed, frustrated and even angry with such a direction and with only bringing a good ending to one side of the family.

 

That's entirely different circumstances though. Luke and Leia had to kept in the dark for their protection, Ben Solo never had to be kept in the dark about anything .

 

Would have been better they had done the same with Ben and kept him away from Snokes influence..

 

Yeah, Leia had obviously known about Snoke for a long time. Snoke was manipulating Ben since he was a kid, but from what we know she never warned Luke.