Official Finn Episode VIII thread

on ellen

 

Congratulations

 

So I was going to respond to your original post that was addressed to me but these replies don't really fill me with a lot of hope that this conversation/debate is going to be very constructive or particularly jovial. I was also determined to take a break from this ceaseless Finn FS debate but I'll take the final line of your original post at face value:

Woah there, hold your horses. I state in the post that you quoted that this was just speculation based upon the instagram picture that I linked and summarised for another poster. Do I think that Finn will use a lightsaber or melee weapon based upon that picture? I don't know. I would have to see him actually training with such a weapon to be certain nor is that picture the basis of why I think and indeed want Finn to be a FS.

There are roughly over 500 pages in this forum concerned with debating whether Finn displayed any FS tendencies based upon numerous scenes in TFA ranging from the divisive "cantina scream scene" to the Finn-Kylo stare down.* All of these debates have been exhaustingly extensive and inconclusive but the fact that these debates have happened and are still happening over the vast expanse of the internet in different forums would suggest that people don't agree whether Finn was portrayed as FS in TFA or not.

*I could break down the numerous controversial scenes and the pros and cons of each side if you want but I sense by the tone of your posts, or as much tone as the internet allows, that you're probably not interested in them.

Because it's a joke, you're meant to laugh at Han, a famous cynic of the Force, lecturing someone else on how the force works. I mean really, is this even a serious point?

Midi-chlorians have been mentioned sparsely throughout the Star Wars films and the tests for them have been mentioned even less. I haven't read much, if at all, of the canon EU but is there any mention of large scale organised testing of midi-chlorians levels in people by any of the Star Wars organisations?

This isn't even mentioning the clear attempt by TFA to move away from the midi-chlorians of the PT, or anything to do with that trilogy what so ever.

Like others have said, according to the book Before the Awakening, which I haven't read, Finn was in the top 1% of the stormtrooper training groups so he's hardly just a janitor. I think you're getting all FS confused with Rey's abilities which are jarringly good in TFA to such an extent that they put Luke Skywalker to shame who, despite being the son of Jedi Jesus, was just a farm boy.

Who knows? Seeing as they've only just started to film Ep.VIII and we have no spoilers yet I can only give you how I would introduce or build upon the hints, depending upon your view, they have laid about.

Finn could experience force visions in his coma and wake up disturbed by what he's seen. Naturally he could shrug off these visions as unsettling nightmares from his traumatic time in TFA before being swept into the ensuing galactic conflict where subtle displays of his FS, such as unsettling feelings and slight pre-cognition to name a few, could gradually manifest during the course of Ep.VIII. Who knows, perhaps Maz will give him a few pointers or some guidance.

What's to say that Luke and Rey remain on Ach-To(sp?) for any large space of time at all? What's to say that Luke will train Rey on Ach-To rather than leave with her to aid his sister in the galactic struggle against the FO? I seem to remember that they were looking for Luke throughout the whole TFA to bring him back into the fight, Rey was sent there to bring him back not to seek training.

Regardless, Finn being FS does not require him running after Rey at the start of Ep.VIII as I've outlined an alternative scenario in the point before this one. Although god knows they've got to come up with some convincing reasons as to why Finn wouldn't go after Rey when he wakes up, the person who he tricked the Resistance in order to save. They literally have a map detailing exactly where Rey has gone.

I'm not sure you're channelling how Rey would react to Finn being FS or arriving at Ach-To but just displaying your own insecurity over Rey's place in the ST. Don't get me wrong, you are welcome to harbour that fear and in fact it is refreshing to see you openly expressing it rather than dance around the issue like many other posters. I personally find it amusing that fans of Rey are worried that if she is not uniquely FS/Jedi then naturally her character will be diminished which doesn't suggest great confidence in other aspects of her character.

As far as I'm concerned it's also a useless fear as I believe it is inevitable that we will be seeing more FS/Jedi if not in this trilogy then the next one so Rey's uniqueness in that regard will be short lived.

Well that depends entirely on how you envision the story unfolding doesn't it? I'm sure you have some ideas or preferences for how the rest of the ST will unfold, I certainly do but neither of us know how the ST will unfold at this point: Unless you're going to reveal yourself as Rian Johnson or JJ Abrams in disguise.

I personally see the resurrection of the Jedi order happening over the course of this trilogy, both Snoke and Lor San Tekka make mention of the return of the Jedi(note the Jedi not a Jedi) being something feared or desired by each respectively. Therefore, to me, Finn being a FS, and eventually becoming a Jedi, would contribute a non-Skywalker Jedi character with an interesting backstory that would make a good addition to the nascent Jedi Order and a foil to both Rey and Kylo. To put another spin on it, it would make Finn a wildcard character.

Or another interesting story arc that some people have suggested, inspired by the character placement and style of TFA poster, whereby Rey is seduced by the dark side or torn between the light and dark represented by Kylo and Finn respectively. Finn would be a paragon of light side virtue, not as talented in the force as Rey but hard working, who would try and bring Rey back to the light, possibly dying in the attempt. These are just some scenarios that Finn being a Jedi could serve but, like I said before, I'm sure you have your ideas and what you think makes sense which no doubt disagree with mine.

 

I agree. Those who see no indication FS whatsoever from episode 7 will not automagically see the light based on the items listed ad-nauseam in this and other threads.

 

I think that the simplest explanation is, we don't know yet. I didn't see much evidence for it myself, but I also cannot rule it out 100% either (because there were little bits here and there that COULD potentially end up pointing in that direction).

 

They need, no, they MUST make Finn a badass in ep8. We have to have a good supporting character. There was Ford in the OT, and being Harrison Ford is basically everything you need to be a badass lol. I didn't particularly enjoy John Boyega's character in TFA (Finn's motivation, character, imo, it sucked. John's acting and humor were great, however.) If Finn gets magically healed and again magically becomes FS, it will completely ruin this character for me. But if it turns out that he was actually pretty severly damaged in that forest fight and must wear some exo-suit to be able to walk and fight then great. I would really want to see Finn as a badass tank who crashes FO stormtroopers like cockroaches.

 

I agree with the crushing of his former-stormtroopers brothers part,

 

You must fight the temptation of the dark side.

 

I thought that his character was great in TFA, and his motivations made perfect sense. But yes, he should be progressing moving forward, it's just good storytelling.

 

He's picked the rebellion over just getting out of dodge after the Hosnian system destruction and he fought Kylo Ren with a lightsaber knowing that he should stand much of a chance. I really hope they the portray him as more of a leader and fighter. Keep the charm, let him be funny, but not the butt of the humor, and confident in his abilities and able to perform in the clutch.

 

Yeah, it would be nice to focus on how Finn should be portrayed for the rest of the trilogy but unfortunately that often takes the discussion back towards whether he is FS or not. Although that isn't surprising as it will likely play a large part in how Finn will be portrayed.

However, in a step towards this noble aim, what does everyone think Finn's humour will be like during the rest of the trilogy? Will he be the same off-beat chirpy chap or slightly more bitter? How has being cut down and being left in a coma at the end of TFA affected his personality?

If Finn does lead Resistance, or Republic, ground troops how does everyone see the scenarios for him doing such? Will he be leading defensive efforts on NR planets or boarding parties during fleet engagements?

Or will he being going on buddy missions with Poe? How will the story justify him and Poe swanning off around the galaxy? Secret missions from Leia? the Resistance scattered?

What does everyone think a more 'physical' role means? Will he be punching out Stormtroopers with his bare hands? Is he going to be skipping rope while Poe flies him around the galaxy? Will he duel a Knight of Ren?

This. I think this is the truce that both sides will have to accept until Ep.VIII, or at least for some part of the time in the build up to Ep.VIII. I think it is asking too much not to debate this issue in the next two years.

 

He can lead Rebellion engagements against the FO and be FS. He can be FS badass with a blaster and lightsaber and not a Jedi. Being FS does not take anything from the character.

 

Of course, that goes without saying but I was trying to direct the topic of Finn in the rest of the trilogy away from the FS debate and towards more general speculation. Which reminds me of another question.

It has often been said that the ST will be about Finn and Rey, their story so to speak. After the release of TFA many people have suggested the addition of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo, quite rightly in my opinion, to that level of story focus. Some have even gone so far as to say that the ST is Kylo's and Rey's story with Finn's importance an exaggerated part of Operation: RED HERRING.

To the question then, how does everyone see Finn's place in the grand story of this trilogy? Is it mostly separated from Kylo and Rey or closely entwined?

SIDE NOTE/RANT: I also want to take a moment to use FN NewGuy's use of the word 'Rebellion' to refer to the Resistance to re-emphasise how much I dislike TPTB's decision to basically make an expy of the Rebel Alliance the protagonist group of the ST. The copy is so blatant that many people, like NewGuy, quite understandably, mistakenly refer to one when they mean the other.

Please, Disney, let this 'homage' group disappear for the rest of the trilogy.

 

I agree with you. The last post wasn't directed at you, it just came after you.

I use Resistance and Rebellion interchangeably even though it's not precise and I probably shouldn't, it's all the same thing to me.

 

i think it will be on some levels and i'd like that, but i think they could shine better individually than in a pair. i'm really not interested in prolonged multiplayer lightsaber battles. we can probably guess Rey and Ren will have a rematch and hopefully it'll be more purposeful than predictable, but i'd rather Finn did something more original like infiltrate the FO and stir up that rebellion everyone's talking about.

re: side note/rant ~ i like the Resistance. we're no longer in Alliance/Empire land, we're in Resistance/ First Order land.
i like that line drawn in the sand and i actually think it's important.

 

I respect that and I understand the difference. I guess I'm just old school and it's hard teaching a old dog new tricks.

I think those three have more to get through in Ep. 8 if there's any continuity across the films. Kylo Ren hates Finn. I don't think that animosity fades in the next movie. I think Finn will also want justice for for what Kylo did to Han, Rey and himself.

Snoke wants Rey and Kylo is interested in her. In contrast, I don't think Rey is interested in Kylo at all other than to stop him from hurting other people. It's as if he isn't on her radar until he's buzzing around her face.

 

Don't fret, I wasn't criticising your interchangeable usage of the terms but the fact that people can, and often do, use them interchangeably. Because they are too damn similar, get that nostalgia away from me. Be creative Disney/LFL.

I agree that Kylo seemed to have a great deal more anger towards Finn than Rey, who he was more interested in co-opting, which is why it would seem strange to me if Kylo simply forgets about his hatred towards that rogue stormtrooper.

I'm sure that Rey has a healthy amount of hatred towards Kylo after the death of Han but you're right in that Rey spent most of the film running away from the creepy stalker that is Kylo Ren

I'm not so keen on that scenario myself because:

1) as I've said previously, that stormtrooper rebellion would rob me of my proper space war and for some reason reminds me too much of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. And

2) TFA spent so much time with Rey and Finn's stories, and Kylo's, being intertwined that it would seem strange to me to separate them off like that. Finn got so much more development, and screen time, with Kylo than he ever did with Phasma yet all I ever see is Finn being brushed off to go play with Captain Chrome. Why place Finn, alongside Rey, at the death scene of Han and then have him take part in the end duel as well?

To me it would just seem odd to uncouple Finn from that storyline when TFA placed him right in it. The only answer to that would be that Finn's placement there was part of operation: RED HERRING and that would bother me. A lot.

That's the same place, my friend. They could take the rest of the trilogy in a different direction then I fear they will but from what I saw of TFA I think it is more likely they will be going with FO overrunning the galaxy while the ragtag Rebels Resistance try to undermine them.

I don't even have a problem with the FO being a more radical remnant of the Empire because that makes complete sense but the Resistance is a far too awkward, hack job, attempt to recreate the Rebel underdogs. This isn't the case at the start of TFA where the Resistance are just a volunteer group fighting the FO when the NR is too mired in bureaucracy and fearful of conflict to take action but with how TFA ends, the potential destruction of the NR, I am afraid that TPTB will literally recreate the Rebels vs Empire scenario.

The easy, sweeping under the rug, destruction of the New Republic is one of my red lines for the rest of the trilogy. I'm preparing myself to be very irked, to put it mildly, for the ST if they cross it.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2016 ---

 

i agree that a triangle has formed between Ren, Rey, and Finn in some fashion. from the book Ren is not just pissed about the lightsaber, he's also jealous. he covets Rey's kinship and doesn't like it that she's attached to Finn (there are lines that strongly suggest it either on Takodana or in the interrogation ~ i fergit). Ren also resents Finn'a ability to resist the FO (or at least that's been my take on him from the start, since they saw each other on Jakku). i guess i feel like this isn't necessarily a beef that needs to be resolved because it's rather petty and/or an emotional conflict that's less dramatically interesting than a physical one? feels like it to me. but what do i know ~ maybe more will come of it in viii now that Finn was seriously injured and might feel vengeful.

i admit i have a bias against any kind of triangle forming between Ren, Rey, and Finn because of the potential for it to get silly or squicky:
two guys who are essentially fighting for/over a girl. neh.

i don't think a stormtrooper rebellion has to negate a space war. it could be part of the space war or prelude to the space war. if only 1/3 defect, for example, that's plenty of war still to be had.

as for the ragtags and the FO, i agree, it's Rebels vs. Empire with different names. that doesn't really bother me. i am more bothered by the lack of nuance in either faction than what they call themselves ~ hahaha.