Official Finn Episode VIII thread

I do wish to point out that Mace Windu fought the "big bad" of the PT and even bested him in combat (whether Palpatine willingly or unwillingly conceded is not the point here). But you could easily argue that both Finn and Han, whilst not really fighting the ultimate villains themselves, have substantially deeper character arcs and development over the same (or less in Finn's case) number of movies.

What really separates a supporting character from a co-lead (I consider Han and Leia co-leads in the OT) is how much time and effort is spent on their characters and how many layers of them we have. When I walked out of TFA, I knew right then that Finn was my favorite character to come out of EP7. He was the "heart" of the movie, especially in a moral sense - even if it was ultimately Rey's journey. Finn's journey was more subtle here. He was the most morally pure of all the characters shown in EP7, even Luke (not that we had much to work with, though), but he was also a coward. Maz Kanata made note as much and it was a scene to show you just how dramatically Finn has changed from start to finish in the movie when you look at it retrospectively. When he chose to face Kylo Ren, even though he knew he stood no chance, was the defining moment of his spiritual journey - he knew right then who he was and where he stood, freed of doubts and fear.

As to who will play the part of his definitive nemesis is unknown, but I'd wager a Phasma rivalry is at least in the cards - due to the nature of their previous interactions. I too, however, doubt that she will be who Finn ultimately fights against at the end of the trilogy - in fact, I'd say Finn and Phasma's animosity is going to be resolved in this movie.

 

If I have at least one concern......about this film it would be trying too hard to cram everything they want to explore in one film before going into the next one. That's about it really. I just hope that I'm not setting myself up for disappointment cause I really hate to see this ST to turn to what the PT were. If not planned carefully enough in the writing aspect...then it will be like those days when most fans hated everything about the PT. Thankfully I'm not one of them but I do feel that the PT could have been better.

 

Phasma got plaid in TFA. So I hope they make up for it. It would be cool if she was a sith spy sent to watch the FO and the KOR. If so, I think she may be behind Finn defecting and definitly helped destroy StarKillerbase (with no resistance) on purpose. In fact, she might have set the whole ordeal in motion like a true sith from the shadows. Now, if that is the case and she is the only true sith in the film, her vs a FS Finn would be cool and could have some depth and meaning to it. Maybe she cloned Finn or was the one who took him from his family, possibly murdering them in the process. Either way, I still think it should be Finn vs Kylo and Kylo vs Rey with maybe Rey vs Finn (as far as epic grudges and arch nemesis go).
Also the force is in my opinion the best part of Star Wars, seeing a resurgence of the Jedi due to a large amount of rising threats and worthy opponents would be awesome. I don't think the problem was the Jedi or the use of force abilities in the PT that hurt it, I believe it was the way in which the origin of one of the most iconic super villains of all time was portrayed (along with his limited screen time as vader). Again just my opinion. And yes it is a bit biased in the force.

 

Well, I don't quite see how you can continue a story together while having separate story threads. Luke participated in Han's story, rescuing him from Jabba etc, but Han was firmly sidelined when Luke fought Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ. Sure they're both part of the galactic conflict but their stories are very much separate within it.

Also it wouldn't really matter if Finn ended up killing Snoke himself, it's not the destination but the journey that's important. They could have written Han running into the throne room at the end of ROTJ and shoot the Emperor in the face but that would have been random as hell in the OT.

I would hesitantly agree that Finn's arc was deeper than Rey's in TFA, or at least more original, but I certainly wouldn't say the same for Han in comparison to Luke in the OT. Han went from selfish mercenary to loyal friend in ANH and then nothing for the rest of the trilogy, he had some romance with Leia and that was it. Luke went from naive wide eyed idealist in ANH to cynical doubting veteran in ESB before becoming the self-assured badass in ROTJ.

That was why Luke's story was so compelling because we saw him go from nobody to somebody, incompetent to competent. I didn't even like Luke in ANH, I thought he was brash and annoying but he ended up being one of my favourite characters because of his character progression. I liked Han too but because he was funny and a cynic, something he remained for the whole of the OT.

I think we need to clarify what "co-lead" means because 1) I'm not precisely sure what I mean when I say it and 2) I'm not sure what the TPTB mean when they describe characters as such. Are Rey and Finn co-leads or is Rey the lead and Finn her co-lead? In other words is "co-lead" used to describe characters of equal importance or is it another word for a large supporting role, a secondary lead?

I personally, don't see Han and Leia as co-leads in terms of being equal in importance to Luke in regards to the story. They are important because they are close to Luke while Luke is important to the story. Han and Leia don't have overarching stories within the OT, what are their goals? Defeat the empire? That's what everyone's goal is. Who is their arc nemesis? Jabba? Boba Fett? They don't have one because they are ancillary characters to Luke.

Finn definitely had good development during TFA, the aspects you outline above were heavily discussed in the TFA Finn thread, but I'm not one of those people complaining that he was entirely a useless bumbling idiot in TFA. Sure he was used for comedic purposes too much and used to emphasise Rey's qualities but he had some great moments in TFA and his progression was far more satisfying than Rey's abrupt and jarring leaps of competence. I've said it before but Finn reminds me of ANH Luke far more than Rey does, with the exception that at least I like Finn more in TFA than I do Luke in ANH. My doubts come about when discussing where we take Finn from here, was his close involvement with Rey and Kylo throughout TFA merely a part of Operation: RED HERRING or will Finn continue to be an integral part of that arc.

I certainly think Finn and Phasma will interact, if only because KK wants Phasma back and the only thing they can do with that character is have her hunt after Finn in a pitiful imitation of Boba Fett and Han Solo but I hope that she is no more than an small irritation for Finn rather than a real adversary. The interactions that they had in TFA were incredibly small, especially compared to the interactions between Finn and Kylo, and yet most of us assume he won't face Kylo again and will have massive "beef" with Phasma.

Why do we assume this? Primarily because now that Rey has assumed her place as heroine, after that cunning marketing deception, we now have to find something to do with Finn and for many that is to have him spend Ep.VIII running from Phasma while Rey trains in the force and confronts Kylo. I know which one of those stories most people will care more about.

I wouldn't rule out TPTB inserting a homosexual relationship in this trilogy if only because they seem to be very keen on identity politics in these films, it's the kind of thing that gets praised. However, I think it would just seem too forced at this stage when a lot of ground has been laid between Rey and Finn. Even if Rey wasn't interested in Finn, it's pretty clear that Finn was interested in her and therefore straight.

 

Haha, that would not be fulfilling as a story arc but Han shooting the Emperor.. Reminds me of that famous duel in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Seriously though, let me give you a proper example of what I'm talking about. In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan goes on a kind of 'side quest' to defeat General Grievous - and then he goes onto the climactic fight with Anakin. A similar principle could be applied to Finn and Rey.

 

When I say co-lead, I mean a large supporting role, a secondary lead. Consider LotR - Frodo is definitely the lead there, but Aragorn and Gandalf are just as pronounced characters in their own right - the co-leads. Jabba was definitely written as Han's arch-nemesis with a large shadow looming over him throughout the trilogy up until he was dealt with at the start of RotJ. While Han's transformation from "selfish mercenary" to "loyal friend" was kind-of done twice (first time in ANH, second time in ESB+RotJ), the circumstances of his second time are crucial to his character. He has trouble admitting to himself that he's no longer the roguish outlaw, that he's now actively fighting for a noble cause - that's essentially the sum of his character arc in ESB. When he faces Jabba at last in RotJ, he's no longer the same person he was in that Mos Eisley Cantina and he is not afraid to admit it; he has come to terms with it.

Besides, we follow a good half of ESB through the eyes of Han and Leia, not Luke. Same goes for RotJ when the Endor split happens. That's definitely more than "just a supporting character". Lando was just a supporting character, but he was a great one. Yoda and Obi-Wan were supporting characters themselves and they too were great, but their journeys were done. The OT was about Luke, Han and Leia's transition from a stargazing farmer, materialistic mercenary and a snarky princess into a confident, wise Jedi Knight, a devoted general and a responsible leader of the Rebellion, respectively.

But let's not get off-topic here... I think Disney is too smart (or too greedy, whatever floats their boat) to disappoint the numerous Finn fans out there. He will most likely get his moment to shine in EP8, now as a distinguished soldier of the Resistance. In fact, I would not be surprised at all if Disney went out their way to ensure Finn became force sensitive even if he wasn't initially written that way (they certainly left it ambiguous enough on-screen in TFA). I can see only a bright future for Finn's character going forward and feel that the real time for me personally to be worried would be if he stagnated during EPVIII, right now they've provided me with enough to give them the benefit of the doubt. I do agree, however, that the marketing towards Finn & Rey vs. Kylo Ren could have been handled with slightly more care.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

I'd rate a "funny" for the notion of Han charging into the Throne Room, but I don't have enough credits yet.

Finn and Rey as the Obi-Wan and Anakin of this trilogy would perhaps be a more closer approximation of their importance, at least one that would make everyone happy. After all, these two characters were the first ones to be conceived for TFA if I'm not mistaken. Why would anyone in their right mind make one half of that duo a stagnant comic-relief throughout an entire trilogy of movies?

 

Yes, exactly. One of my first posts on the forum was concerning what type of character I wanted Finn to be for the rest of the trilogy. It was quite long, long enough that I wouldn't be able to muster the energy to read it myself. However, the jist was that I wanted Finn to be the PT Obi-Wan, Obi-Ewan, of this trilogy rather than the Han Solo.

So in short I agree with you.

I think there is so much tension around Finn's future role in the trilogy due to the marketing for TFA. The whole lightsaber/Jedi red herring stuff has basically thrown everybody into confusion over what Finn is meant to be doing. How much was misdirection and how much was foreshadowing? Also the fact that he was left in a coma at the end of TFA also leaves us with no idea what he's doing next.

He's very much a blank slate which leaves a lot of potential for greatness and also disappointment.

Yes, exactly.

 

I know Boyega is back in training for the new movie, but does it actually specifically mention lightsaber training? I can't seem to remember that distinct little detail and I'd hate to make presumptions.

 

No, the lightsaber/sword fighting training is speculation based upon an instagram photo of Boyega wearing a hat with the kanji for kendo; a t-shirt which looks to have a fencing school logo on it; and gloves which some have described as being used in fencing. There's an article on it with the picture in question, it credits this forum for the discovery:

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...n-boyega-training-for-more-swordfighting.html

 

Not sure if sword training is/was part of John's training. I watched a red-carpet interview with John at the Baftas - he indicated that he would be doing some more running on the first day shooting

What is interesting is that Liang Yang who played TR-8R/FN-2199 is back for VIII. I can only guess that he'll play some other faceless bad guy like a Knight of Ren, but who knows? Finn vs TR-8R round 2?

 

That's almost... factual. At any rate, thanks for clarifying it for me!

This still remains my favorite .gif to come out of the movie, by far (probably posted one-too-many times here already):

 

Here's Finney!!!!!!

 

Bump

 

Pure speculation. Those gloves are basic gym gloves, the straps are for wrist support when weight training. I'm sure if you search online you can find a pair almost exactly like those. Logos are just that.

Anyways if Finn is indeed intended to be a Jedi you have to ask yourself a few fundamental questions:

Why wasn't he portrayed to be force sensitive in The Force Awakens? (really that's the only question you should have to ask but if that's not enough let me continue)

Why did they put the joke in the film with Finn exclaiming to Han on Starkiller Base that they'll use the force? (I thought this sort of thing was what made all the misdirection in the marketing featuring Finn with a lightsaber work in the first place)

Does the First Order just not do midi-chlorian tests and just wait to train new people when they randomly encounter them and they show force potential?

How is it that he's force sensitive and all but ended up just being a janitor before (presumably) being promoted to full cannon fodder?

How do they intend to introduce this to the story? Does Finn just wake up from his injuries and realize he's force sensitive and then show up in the middle of Rey's training?

When he shows up to train on the planet and Luke accepts him, does he excitedly squeal to Rey about how he's force sensitive too and how they're both gonna be Jedi pals?

Is Rey clearly annoyed and frustrated with him because he spends the film totally stealing her thunder or content that she might as well not even be there anymore?

How exactly does Finn becoming a Jedi service the story?

I can't think of a single reason they would do this other than a few fans really wanting it to happen, help me out here.

 

Did Kylo Ren also slash the back of Finn's head?

 

From a lot of what I have been reading Finn will be gay.

 

If something like that was already confirmed, wouldn't you expect it to be all over the news by now?