Official Finn Episode VIII thread

You think Rian's going to flesh out Finn? Interesting, in what way? This is an honest question, I am not trying to be snarky. If you're inclinced to answer, can you be specific, what aspect do you suspect is going to be fleshed out? The description and the marketing tidbits for the storyline really is generic. There is no Force aspect to be dealt with. We've established that Finn has a hero's character (selflessness, courage, and bravery). So I really don't know what's going to be fleshed out further or the way his character is set to be challenged in this installment. The combat competency (for both Finn and Phasma) I assume is more about catching the characters up to what we should've seen in TFA. It'll be great to see, but I would not regard it as the characters being "fleshed out". If they devote 5 minutes in a scene to Finn's past would that suffice for you personally as fleshing out? Like, say the name the system and the planet where he came from and it's history with the FO... would you consider that major development? Again, serious question with absolutely not snark intended.

I hear you and others say to "keep an open mind" and honestly, in any other situation I would be in 1000% agreement with you. I really would. The marketing and the movie aren't the same thing. But at what point do we consider that when it comes to the core story, there is truth in advertising? Allow me to use a real time example: By way of interviews and articles, posters, teasers, and trailers, we understand there isn't going to be any Force Related examination with Finn. Should we then assume that there will be, when all the metadata suggests otherwise? The same interviews, articles, posters, teasers, and trailers suggest that Finn's storyline is a sub-plot and the central story is the Force related one... should we assume that it will be something different? I mean the name of the movie is "The Last Jedi".

I know there are some people, who are poised to praise whatever they see on the screen for Finn no matter what. Whether it's actually good, bad, pedestrian, they are going to come here and say Finn was great, even if an objective assessment says he wasn't because it's not about meaningful analysis of the character, it's about silencing any protest. I am fully transparent that if this movie exceeds my expectations, I will come back and own as much on this board. I wonder, however, if the marketing turns out to be an accurate depiction of the story prioritization, will anybody come back in and admit that they were wrong about their optimism for Finn? Or will they pivot and say, that the same marketing they told others not to take fully to heart, never promised to give us more; that it wasn't that they under-delivered, we just over-expected? These are general questions and observations I'm posing to the board @Pomojema not necessarily directed at or about you.

 

Here's the latest from rian in a japanese interview.

The core of the story is also a way to go. Each of us faces a personal challenge, but they can be enclosed in one theme. In other words, where did you come from? Where is he going? It is a push and pull of the ne. Speaking of Lei, who is her parents? What is the role of Luke? In the story, what is your role? To find out. In short, it means "to become an adult". Even in the case of Fin, I decided to leave the first order in my previous work, but in reality the actions I have done so far are not for myself, but for someone else. It was for friends who became a member of resistance, not because of my sense of mission. So where do you head for? It comes to cherish it.

Sorry Google translated. Here a link to the interview in japanese.

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20171127-00057795-exp-musi

 

This in the red, so much this in the red...
I don't want to come off like I'm chastising people for having an opinion, but we have theories, we love the Finn character, but our theories may or may not transfer to the actual story. There's way too much "If Finn is not this or that or this then he will suck" proclamations going on in here in the sense that Finn has to be FS or uber Finn or someone's personal idea of what Finn should do, be, etc. or he will suck and be degraded. I'm not directing this at literary criticisms of the story around Finn, just Fan induced expectations of what the character should've been in TFA based on personal opinion, rather than what was shown and then that is extended to what better be for Finn in TJL and beyond.

The other issue I see here and I spoke with my wife about this a few days ago is one of the curses and/or blessings of actually doing a trailer right is causing a lot of the issues here. What I mean is a trailer that does not tell you the pivotal details of the story, instead, it wets your appetite and have you speculating on what happens in the forthcoming film. People start speculating on the story beyond the trailer while adding statements from interviews made outside the trailer and promotional material outside the trailer as well. All of which may or may not be giving away pivotal story details in general or as it pertains to individual characters. I think that's the major issue here. Some are too use to trailers telling the plot points of the movies rather than trailers actually just enticing one to watch the movie with minimum, generic, or already revealed plot points conveyed.

What have we seen and/or learned so far? I'm going to do a comparative analysis of the trailers. I went through each one and watched them taking down notes of what is shown for each character in the trailer and compiled it with other information that has been confirmed that I may be privy to.

Finn:
- Wakes up and immediately asks about Rey's whereabouts when greeted by Poe.
- Finn declaring he was raise to fight and finally he has something to fight for. (Note: I had a previous conversation about "had" vs "has" here and I feel "has" makes more sense here than "had" unless something is revealed to change that, I'm open to being wrong...but I think given what's been shown this is an indication Finn will act in the present rather than be saying he "had something to fight for" as if to say he no longer does...given the context of the situation he does currently have something to fight for so "had" doesn't make sense in the context. Also when compared with his statement in TFA, "I was raised to do one thing, but I've got nothing to fight for." I don't really see him making the same statement in past tense in two movies. That would mean his character has no development unless this statement is made super early in TLJ before he takes on the mission, but with the emotion by which he says it...I doubt that. It's more like a call to arms statement for himself and others when he states it in the TLJ trailer rather than a statement of uncertainty like in TFA. Also, he makes the TFA statement in the official TFA trailer, so I believe the "I finally have something to fight for" is meant to show a change in Finn.)
- Finn goes into a FO installation or ship undercover with two new characters.
- Finn fights Phasma in a place burning down which has suffered major damage.
- Finn will spend a significant amount of time with Rose, a new female character.
- Finn will be on a mission with new character, DJ.
- Finn is seen in a fighter craft engaging in combat seemingly with the rest of the Resistance against the FO.

Kylo:
- Holds his light saber at someone either pointing or as if he is ready to duel. Throughout the sequence of revealed teasers more of his face is seen in this clip.
- Observing some machinery or room or simply in deep thought as he peers through a window.
- Leading storm troopers.
- Picking up his saber with his helmet on in a room saturated with red.
- Saying the past should die and one should be willing to kill it if necessary.
- Seemingly fighting the Resistance in space.
- Reaches his hand out to someone, we don't know who.

Luke:
-With Rey, seemingly training her.
-Expressing concern and fear for someone's raw power in the Force which reminds him of another time he has seen it. The person he is directing this concern to is seemingly Rey.
- Declaring it's time for the Jedi to end, hence the title of this installment.
-While on the ground in the rain boldly declaring to someone things won't go the way they expect.
- Breaking out of rubble.
- Standing before a burning building, potentially the same building in which he was buried in rubble?
- He will eventually end up in the cockpit of the Falcon seemingly reminiscing and mourning his friend, Han.

Rey:
- With Luke, seemingly training.
- Declaring something has awakened inside her and she needs assistance with it.
- Stating she needs guidance. (The initial teaser is edited to make it seem like Kylo is reaching out to her after she says that)
- Has another vision/flashback of some events, most likely what happens with the New Jedi.
- Is seemingly looking down at someone as she lights up the blue saber. (Could be the same flashback in the same vein as she was in the flashback in TFA, we don't know, but trailer editing is designed to make you think it might be Luke she is looking at).
- Under a force attack by Snoke and in serious pain.

Poe:
- Is present when Finn wakes up and is asked the whereabouts of Rey.
- Is in fighter craft with the Resistance seemingly in battle with the FO in space.
- Declaring the Resistance is the spark that will light the fire that will destroy the FO.
- Seen again in a space craft peering out of a window with surprise or worry on his face.
- Seen running to a fighter and then it explodes, seemingly a space battle.

Phasma:
- Fighting Finn in a burning ship or installation.
- Taunting, "So good to have you back" to someone as she leads storm troopers somewhere.

Snoke:
- Proclaiming when Darkness rises, Light also rises to meet it.
- Snoke talking about witnessing raw power in someone and it was something truly special. (This trailer is edited so that when he says this the scenes of Kylo are showing.)
- Attacking Rey with a Force attack demanding someone fulfill their destiny. Whether he is talking to Rey and she is the only one in the room, we cannot tell.

Leia:
- Seen in a command center.
- Seen in a command center seemingly on a ship. (This trailer is edited so that when Kylo mentions killing the past it seems Leia is on the ship he is fighting in space and on the bridge he is about to attack.)

Chewy:
- Piloting the falcon with a new strange little alien that he knocks out of the way to either get to the controls it is sitting on or because it was annoying him.

Thus, what do we really know of Finn's story in TLJ so far? He's going to wake up and ask Poe where Rey is then some catalyst will cause him to join a mission in which he goes into a FO ship or installation with Rose and DJ. At some point he fights Phasma and at some point he ends up in a ship fighting against an enemy. That's it...nothing else. We don't know how he gets from point A, B, C or D. We don't know what emotional conversations he has with people beyond the voice overs he has given and the conversations shown. We don't know when, if, or where he and Rey will reconnect.

We don't know how impactful Finn's mission will be. We don't know what else Finn will do, if anything else, in the movie. We don't know if his assistance in the fight will be equivalent to his assistance which caused the fall of StarKiller. We don't know what this place is they go into undercover. We don't know what causes him and Phasma to confront one another. We don't know if Finn duels anyone else. In the TFA trailer we only saw glimpse that Finn would duel Kylo, but did not know he would duel a storm trooper as well regardless of how people feel about that duel. Point being, the trailer did not reveal every aspect of Finn's journey throughout the story or in great detail what that story will be. How does the the undercover mission connect to the rest of Finn's story, for instance? How does it connect to the overall story?

It is no different for the other characters. Apart from Rey and Luke being the targets of Snoke and Kylo, how much more of their story do we know than Finn's? This story has the Force as one of the major focus for four characters and the larger fan base...so did The Force Awakens. Did the fact the title of the movie and the emphasis on the Force negate Finn's influence on the story?

Will Finn still be considered a support character to some of you if his actions, even if carried out with others, significantly influences the flow of the major conflict in the movie? The conflict between the Resistance and First Order.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

This is kind of what I was getting at. Finn has a story, Rey has a story, Luke has a story, Kylo has a story, Poe has a story, Snoke has a story, etc. Nothing opposite of what has been discussed in these forums. However, it seems only for Finn fans it's "If his story is not this or that then Finn is regulated to this or that." Rather than embrace the story of Finn in the grander scheme of the Star Wars adventure.

What Rian says here is that he has not cast Finn aside and, in my opinion, given him a story that follows from what happened in TFA. If Finn wakes up with the Resistance and some catalyst happens which pulls on his code of doing what is right then what are we to expect? Unless there is another reveal such as FS or something in his history revealing another foe for Finn to tackle then we have the cards that have been dealt us with the characters and story at hand. It's possible Finn takes down Phasma and another bad is introduced. It's possible he doesn't. We don't know the intricate details of TLJ and where it will lead the character.

I'm not understanding all the pessimism.

 

It's the marketing for me. The last thing I wanted to see was anything where Finn would be working with the Resistance. I said it two years ago. I don't want him working with the Resistance at all. They did nothing to prevent children from being taken from families, so they can go kick rocks. When looking at the trailers it looks like Finn is with the Resistance playing support. I don't want to take that chance and be disappointed.

 

I think Rian gets to approach this as an extension of TFA with only to us incremental or minimal growth for characters (like Finn and any others he may not be able to focus on within the story he's telling) and narratively it can be justified because there is no time jump between films. So Finn fighting Phasma gets to be treated as progress and marketed as an accomplishment to Finn fans because it only takes place let's say a couple of weeks or a month after him dumping her in a trash compactor on SKB. (Look! Just last week Finn was bested by a regular trooper now he's defeated the commander of all the troopers with the SAME weapon hw was defeated with....Ta-Daw!! ...Progress! ).

It's not fair but this is a real possibility and because of the story structure they can legitimately claim they have given a lot of attention to Finn's character which in truth is not the same as character development
(quantity over quality) but can be marketed as the same thing.

Besides the obvious problems this creates in regards to Finn's development onscreen, it trickles down to every other cast member as well. Unless there are major or even minor surprises in store built into TLJ that advances Finn's arc this leaves too much on the table for JJ to accomplish with ALL the characters in Episode IX which will inevitably short change one or more of the main characters ( and we know Rey and Kylos stories won't be the ones to suffer.) Not to mention accommodation must be made in the story for the passing of Carrie Fisher. The ONLY way around an overcrowded story in Episode IX shortchanging most of the cast's stories, ( starting with Finn) is a significant time jump between films allowing books, comics, and the opening crawl to fill in some gaps. Even then there is the tough decision of what gets explained on camera narratively to general filmgoing audiences who don't consume all of that material. There is also a question if the story and cliffhangers created in the TLJ support the type of time gap needed to allow the characters to develop outside of the story told onscreen in the movies.

 

It's been said TLJ happens directly after TFA with no time gap thus, sequentially, there won't be a whole lot of space for in-between stories. So I suspect as you say, some will fill the characters lack adequate development.

As far as Phasma goes, I'm not entirely sure who people think Finn should have a conflict with unless someone else is introduced or he comes in contact with Kylo again. The Storm trooper he fought was killed by Han. There's another guy from the prequel novel that could rise to the occasion, but that's the same as introducing someone else. DJ, if he's a traitor, could become that post-Phasma, but that's speculative.

In my honest assessment the film has three major good guys:
Finn, Rey and Luke

Supporting good guys:
Leia, arguably Poe who could elevate to major good guy, Rose (this is an acknowledged assumption), Chewy, Holda (another assumption)

Four major bad guys:
Snoke, Kylo, arguably Hux, arguably Phasma
- Regardless of how you see Hux and especially Phasma, they are the only other bad guys with names and leadership roles aside from Snoke and Kylo.

Potential Supporting and/or Major bad guys:
Members of the Knights of Ren

One iffy character due to rumors:
DJ

So unless there's a Knight of Ren that shows up or someone else. Finn has history with Phasma (and by extension the FO) that needs to be closed up.

 

I agree. I have no issue with Phasma being Finn's immediate nemesis (aside from her lack of any significant development in TFA) she is the most logical choice. I was just pointing out that within the story structure people dissatisfied with Finn's arc ( both legitimately and illegitimately) can be offered the counterpoint that not enough time has passed for Finn to do much else than what has/will be shown in both movies and this is quite a lot of "growth" from being a simple stormtrooper. Of course the counter to that is the monumental changes Rey will undergo in the same period, but that is a seperate discussion. I hope but do not expect some surprises beyond what is shown at face value in the marketing for Finn's story but my expectations remain low so I will not be disappointed.

 

I think that if they aren't developping Finn is because they fear it will took away from their Heroine Rey. And they don't want that. Simple as that.

 

They really should have marketed Rey with the lightsaber from the jump, it looks cringy seeing it out of Finns hands in the promotion, idk how they think black people will look at it and be 100% clear of negative thoughts toward the film(logically they know there are black people that would be unhappy with it, but what we think doesn’t matter).....

Rey,Luke,and Kylo team fan: “well that’s the way it was supposed to go, you thinking otherwise says your a delusional bigot who wanted the story to go how you imagined it in your own head, even though NOTHING supports that....nothing at all”

Finn fan: *sighhhh* land of the free, home of the brave.....

Dear Disney we get it, you just wanted black money, and don’t care for the black families who had hopes for a young black Luke Skywalker with no strings attached, but unfortunately that’s not how it works around these parts

 

@BrotherRoyVA

But do you think Finn's story will contain a twist outside of DJ betraying him and Rose? Do you think Finn will duel anyone else after Phasma? If so, who?

If the answer to either of those is no then the question stands at would you be content with Finn's projected path in TLJ?

I suspect yes, correct? So are the critics too difficult to please/have too high expectations or do you just lack any concrete expectations yourself?

 

Great post. I would say with this post you are a great source of reason.

This is one of the biggest misrepresentations and fallacies that many around here constantly bring up.

 

Understood, my fault. I thought you were saying something else.

I'm not seeing any monumental changes in Rey beyond what's expected. She will either grow in the Force or she will remain stagnant. She will confront Kylo again or she will give into the Darkside. She will confront Snoke or she will be crushed by Snoke. I don't see any of that monumental as it's not really different from anything we've seen before although J.J. and R.J. have expressed a desire to go a different direction from the template.

Short answer, I don't know if he will duel anyone else after Phasma. My point was that the TFA trailer only showed him dueling Kylo and yet he dueled the Storm Trooper also. I don't know if DJ will betray him or what more he will do outside of being with Rose. TFA trailer showed that scene of Finn waking up after crashing on Jakku, running around with Rey dodging shots from TIE Fighters on Jakku, shots of him and Rey running, dodging, looking and the scene where he has the gun and Poe slaps him on the back and finally the scene where he prepares to duel Kylo. In all that, nobody knew how that would all play out at the promotional stage before the movie was released. Nobody knew how the dots would be connected between those scenes.

I'm going to get on a soapbox for a moment...forgive me if this seems to be telling you things you already know:

I've come to terms with the story and I embrace Finn within the context of the Star Wars universe and the general conflict shown in this current installment. Let me elaborate. Say we are soldiers in a war between two nations. This is the general conflict, the war between two nations. Let's say one of those nations is emphatically evil and want to enslave the world and build a dark empire. We're fighting for the cause of ensuring everyone in the world stays free from this dark grip of the evil nation. Again, this is the overall conflict we are in.

However, within that overall conflict of preventing the world from descending into the vice grip of the evil nation, you and I may have smaller and/or personal conflicts. Let's say our squad of troopers often engaged in combat with an enemy squad of troopers. This would be a group conflict.

Let's say I am the leader of this squad of troopers. I may have developed a personal rivalry with the leader of the enemy squad. In fact, we may engage in hand to hand combat in battle from time to time when we meet in the general conflict. (Ignore the machination that we keep surviving these battles).

Let's say another squad in the Light army has a vendetta with another squad in the Dark army and the news media of the Light army focuses on that squad because within their rivalry sits a known villain of the Dark army. This squad gets all the accolades for their victories while our squad is ignored.

Let's say our squad takes out a major Dark Army facility in which child troops are trained up from a young age and we liberate this whole city. It gets a mere mention in the last page in the Light nation's news.

Does that make our squad's story any less important? Less impactful?

That's how I see Finn. That's how I will continue to see Finn if his character is written in this capacity because it's how Finn was written in TFA and it's how Finn is treated, not only often by his own fans which is ironic, but by the larger fandom in relation to Rey, Kylo, Luke, etc. Finn's accomplishments in the story are minimized to nothing and underappreciated, yet constantly compared to Rey, Luke, etc. in the sense Finn can never amount to anything unless he is one of them. Quite simply, Finn is not allowed to be Finn for the simple fact he's not facing off against a Vader, a Kylo, a Snoke, etc.

I don't see Finn that way.

Edited to add: That's like saying I'm a fan of Finn, but I'll only be a strong fan of Finn if other people are. I feel defeated as a fan of Finn because nobody else likes him. They like Rey, they like Kylo, etc. If that's the case, you're a fair wheather fan as they say in sports. You only like Finn if he's popular with everyone else.

"You" is used here in general and not directly you.

Does that answer your question?

I think some people have projected their personal desires onto the character without embracing the reality that they aren't writing these stories as well as not appreciating the context in which these characters exist as I outlined above with my analogous story.

 

@BrotherRoyVA Actually those of us that knew of MSW TFA spoilers, were able to connect the dots, at the promotional stage.

The only thing we didn't know and argued over, was whether or not Finn had the Force, and who Rey's parents were. Which turned out not to be in the movie anyway.

 

If you say so.

Edited to Add: I would also say that it seems they aren't releasing as many spoilers as they may have at that point, because it's pretty evident we don't know a lot when the movie is less than a month away and that's how it should be. Unless, of course, you have some insider information.

 

@BrotherRoyVA small clarification. In the context of both their lives both have "changed" a great deal in a short time. But lined up side by side. Going from stormtrooper to resistance spy looks less monumental than solitary scavenger to powerful Jedi in training ( with possible familial adopted or genetic) to the legendary Luke Skywalker. Sure WE the audience have seen this exact thing before but in the context of telling a new story and these are new characters Rey's life has changed monumentally as much as and even more than Finn.

By the way regarding Finn's arc a plot point that very much interests me is how Vice Admiral Holdo views Finn. It's already been said she will clash with Poe and has a different leadership style than Leia. What is an obvious point of contention? Perhaps a " defected" stormtrooper whose heroism she hasn't witnessed and no reason to trust. This could be an interesting wrinkle because it could effect Finn's level of involvement with the Resistance moving forward. Especially if Rey is not around.

 

Of course, this is predicated on the assumption she is, in fact, biologically connected to Luke Skywalker. (We already have a Skywalker connected to Luke in Kylo).

I see them of equal growth. Finn has gone from programmed Storm Trooper with very limited freedom to breaking away from that and becoming a member of the Resistance and confronting the Order which brainwashed him. While Rey goes from scavenger as you pointed out to training in the Force. The only difference in quality here is the one which is put on the weight of being a Force User versus not being one. If that is indeed, the case with Finn moving forward.

Any intelligent leader would see the value Finn brings to the Resistance even if he evidentially hits a wall of limitations in his knowledge. If R.J. and J.J. are privy to the prequel material and I believe they are, then Finn was a model cadet and Phasma was grooming him for higher ranks in the FO. Thus, Finn may have more knowledge of other things within the FO.

Holdo's conflict with Poe may be an extension of Poe's personality that we have yet to see. We saw very little of Poe in TFA. It could also be a result of Poe going against her in support of something he feels strongly about. Ultimately, we don't know. Speculations can be endless until the movie comes out.

 

This is correct. Thanks to MSW and a couple of other spoiler sources as well as the official information provided to the public at large, people on SW message boards were pretty much able to piece together about 80% at least of what was going to go down in TFA. We were uncertain whether Finn was force sensitive (we seem to go back and forth on the subject although towards the end signs weren't looking so great) and it was still up in the air who Rey's parents were (although info was surfacing just before the movie release that this answer may have to wait for another film). We pretty much knew how the battle between Rey, Finn and Kylo would go down, that Han would die and that Luke wouldn't appear until the very end. I'm happy that we are not nearly as spoiled with TLJ.

 

I don't agree with that at all.

Developing a character and making them interesting does not in any way bring down another character. Han's story didn't take away from Luke's just as Leia's story didn't take away from Han's. Each of those characters has their fans and their USP.

Even in the PT, the first whole movie concentrated on Obi-Wan just as much as it did Anakin. However, it didn't take away from Anakin's story at all. Again, Anakin has his fans and so does Obi-Wan.

You mightn't like Rey, and you're well within your rights not too. But there's a huge group of people that do. They enjoy her as a character and want to see where the story takes her. And I'd say the same for Finn. Finn has his fanbase and they want to see who he becomes in the next movie.
LF isn't going to shortchange one character just to please one group of people.