Official Finn Episode VIII thread

I think the idea of making him a stormtrooper is fantastic. But it bares no relevance at all. He just shoots his former fellows. So what's the point of his "inner conflict" if there is none?

 

That's up to Rian now and back on JJ again next.

But I don't think Kasdan had any plans for that past TFA. Which is unfortunate

 

I get that idea too. Not that he has said anything about Finn, but he seems SO captivated ( per his quotes) by Rey, Kylo, Luke in that order. The rare time he is asked about Finn he's like " oh yeah Finn is cool too". The lack of talk about Finn might just be people aren'tvasking though...what sticks out is he volunteers unsolicited thoughts about the other characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2017 ---

Heres the full quote Kasdan was the writer with the fresh idea but no one who is left it seems had ideas about where they wanted to go with Finn. People reading this take notice Finn is referred to and was always considered the male lead for what its worth.

From the very beginning we sort of settled on very quickly that we wanted the girl, Rey, to be a scavenger. We always wanted her to be the ultimate outsider and the ultimate disenfranchised person, because that person has the longest journey… And then we were struggling to figure out who the male lead was going to be. I remember we talked about pirates and merchant marines and all this stuff, and finally Larry [Kasdan] got pissed at all of us and he’s just like, “You guys, you’re not thinking big. What if he’s a stormtrooper that ran away?'”

 

Does that sound like a Skywalker to you?

As for Kasdan, I think he and JJ intended for Finn to be the lead that we expected, just didn't execute so well on that.

This is true, but they are also not leads. It always kind of comes back to this, we want Finn relevant and we want him a lead (which is what the franchise made him out to be, not us). So it's just problematic sometimes when some days the argument is, he is a lead, and then other days it's an argument that could actually make sense, but once again implies that he isn't a lead. I think you raise a valid point, but it implies that Finn is a support character, and most of us do not want that.

Except for your last line, wouldn't all these arguments you're making be reasons to have played down Finn in the marketing and story in TFA? (I.e. people are way more familiar with the Jedi and Dark Siders of the Prequel Trilogy so it would only make sense that they focus on Rey and Kylo in TFA?)

 

290 pages in to the Official Finn Thread and we still haven't quite figured out Finn as a character.....amazing.

He is an enigma.

 

We know who is Finn, he the big grizzly bear just woke up hungry to Fight.

Truth be we know Finn was the Red Herring for Rey in TFA, know I believe Rey is the Red Herring for Luke Skywalker.

The movie is 2 hours and 30 mins, we have enough time to see Finn in action to fight and argue about if he Force Sensitive or now okay guys?

 

I have developed my own interpretation of Finn as a character for a very long time. It’s completely unsubstantiated, and relies only on my own ‘textual’ analysis of TFA but I feel that it fits and at least it helps me understand why it is written like that and how he will develop in VIII. It’s a sort of psychotherapy of my relation with Finn’s character.

Finn has been written as a blank slate : he has to be given a name, he has to be given a costume, he has no past, he has no musical theme and he has no powers in TFA. And yet he gets to be where the action takes place and he is in fact essential for the plot to advance and to put it in motion : without Finn there is no story. His arc can be summarized as ‘he wakes up, he meets and helps Rey to accomplish her destiny and goes to sleep’.

Putting everything together, I believe that Finn’s character can be interpreted as the protagonist of a ‘portal adventure’ : the protagonist crosses a gate, enters a fictional world and help the heroes of this Universe to accomplish their quests and has to go back to reality once done. A common trait of such stories is the bittersweet taste as the protagonist gets to experience great adventures without being fully part of this world and with the obligation to go back to the ‘real’ world once the story is finished. The fictional world and its members often claim ‘you really belong here’ to the protagonist, the reality is that there are greater forces at play that prevent the hero to stay and be a full part of this alternate Universe. Of course, it’s easy to see the parallels with the relation of a fan and his favorite fictional Universe : the fan experiences great adventures but at some point the credits have to roll or the book has to be closed and the ‘dream’ has to stop. The fiction can say ‘to be continued’ at its end, except that it nevertheless has to stop for the moment.

In essence, I believe that Finn is the protagonist of such kind of adventure in TFA and I think that it explains the strong projection power that this character has: Finn is us, the audience and the fans. He gets to experience the Star Wars adventure we would like to experience : he wears a stormtrooper armor, he is at the gunner position in the Falcon, he gets and he fights with the lightsaber. Somehow he gets to do all the fun stuff available to him, like a kid in a toy store. However he is not a force wielder, because he is not from this fantasy world, he merely passes through it. A lot of his fans wants him to be FS, because it would signifies a greater belonging to this world but since ‘he comes from another reality’ it’s not possible : it hurts but that’s the rule. At the end of TFA, he is sent back to sleep, he does not get to see Rey defeat Kylo Ren and SKB being destroyed : he made everything he could to help the Galaxy but it was not up to him to resolve the conflicts and he was sent back to a passive ‘audience-like’ position.

I’m aware that he is not literally written like a portal protagonist but there are many elements that fit and it explains a lot of the expectations and wishes I have for this character, who is the fan representative somehow. In fact, I wonder how it relates to JJ, who is very fond of Finn and who is genuinely a fan : I believe Finn’s arc is very much the arc a fan would have liked to experience and maybe JJ projected a lot of him into this character.

Also, in TFA it’s very difficult to consider Finn without adding Rey into the game as I think there is also another layer to consider. Not only Finn is the ‘fan’ who gets to experience a Star Wars adventure, but I also believe that Rey is written to be an allegory of the ‘Star Wars Experience’ . She is a Force Wielder, a Pilot, a Jedi, she has a musical theme, she has the lightsaber. She is also mysterious and compassionate. Ridley’s beauty, more athletic than typical Hollywood gorgeous, is also reminiscent of a greek goddess statue. I despise the Mary Sue argument but it’s true that Rey is almost too good to be true, she’s an abstraction, an allegory, a synthesis of the adventurous and fantastical elements of Star Wars. Therefore not only Finn is thrown in a fictional world but he gets to experience it with the adventure personified, hand in hand, with Rey. It’s the closest fan and fiction can be, via their incarnations Finn and Rey respectively. At the end of TFA, the adventure whispers to the fan, already gone, that they will be together again but for the moment they have to be separated. There is nothing Rey, the incarnation of SW somehow, can do about it.

I could develop this idea for pages and pages : unexpectedly I know that I invested a lot myself in Finn’s character and I have been trying to understand this for 2 years and that’s more or less my interpretation of this investment. I could be reaching, but it does the job for me.

And that’s why I fear a bit the route that seems to be taken by RJ in VIII. With the mindset I have about TFA and the interpretation of Finn & Rey, it’s almost terrifying.

Apparently, Finn is really not a Force wielder. Again, it’s too bad but somehow it’s the rule of portal stories, the protagonist can’t be fully associated with the fantasy of the fictional world. From there, I expect that at least he gets to participate, to be with the adventure. Except that apparently he won’t : Finn and Rey will be separated for almost all the movie. Even worse, since there is no romantic relation, they won’t long for each other, this distant link between fiction and audience is erased, the promise that the adventure will come back and the promise that the audience is waiting is not here anymore. Essentially it seems that the route taken by 8 will shatter to pieces my personal interpretation of TFA and of its two main character.

That being said, I think that TLJ will be a great movie, all things are pointing to this. It’s clear that characters have to grow, that the story has to expand and it can’t stay in a permanent self reference : it think it will be done in an excellent way. But it’s also likely that it will be a different kind of story than the one I saw in TFA.

 

a better view

 

If the team of writers and "creators" at Lucasfilm had any sense they could easily satisfactorily advance Finn's story without impeding upon their beloved Kylo, Rey and sometimes Luke focused trilogy.

JJ Abrams nor Lucasfilm group are originals nor are they reinventing the wheel. The similarities between Kylo Ren and Rey and Jaina and Jace Solo are not coincidental. How much they took from that story will be revealed in this movie with Reys lineage reveal. That being said those characters from Legends are defunct unless they are canonized but if stories with "new' characters that are similar to theirs come out like Jace/Kylo Jaina/Rey then its obvious those Legend characters never become canon.

I know this has been covered before by me and others in this thread but Kyle Katarns "Legend" story is sitting right there and it already closely parallels Finns...except Finns story is potentially more compelling because Katarn volunteered for the empire (under false pretenses) whereas Finn is a kidnapped child soldier.

I am not holding out any false hopes that this will happen but within the context of the story they are choosing to tell this could easily fit.

Rogue One already made his original character defunct.

However his description is a stormtrooper who defected. Started off as a rebel spy, then became a mercenary (mostly working for the rebellion) Someone ( Luke Skywalker) said: "Hey buddy your strong with the Force"he said "Naw I'm good on that Jedi stuff bro" ( that might be a bit of a paraphrase) He more or less taught himself to be a Jedi through trial and error and research. Luke approached him again sometime later and he accepted some instruction from him and off he went. Even after that he was reluctant to describe himself as a Jedi.

Which brings us back to Finn (ignoring for now the Force Sensitivity foreshadowing in TFA) Lets look at the parallels:

Defected stormtrooper...(though as I have said Finn's story is potentially more compelling ) CHECK

Spy for the Resistance/Rebellion....we already know his mission for the Last Jedi...CHECK

Mercenary....? Could easily be established between films ESPECIALLY if Finn does not officially join the Resistance at the end of TLJ ( which I have serious doubts that he will join) also John Boyega made an allusion to Boba Fett a notorious mercenary recently regarding Finn...hmmm. TO BE DETERMINED.

This next part could be crucial. Identified as FS decides to figure it out on his own...IF..IF this happens it could work so well and easily into the story they are telling. Finn can explore his Force Sensitivity without them devoting any movie time or exposition to training, background etc like they are with Rey and it would fit with JJ Abrams "vision" of everyone being able to access The Force.

Rey is a Force super user with outsized powers she NEEDS the training and guidance of Luke Skywalker ( or Snoke) Finn ( like Katarn of Legends) may be more of a blue collar Force user and that's ok. But him just winging it as the story of the legacy characters plays out simultaneously could be a very interesting and compelling story never shown on film in a GFFA. Also there are built in mentors he could utilize outside of the main story if they chose to go that route as well Maz Kanata (DJ perhaps??) Kyle Katarn was guided by Force Ghosts in the EU.

That being said my expectations are low for them getting this right or putting this much thought into Finn ( which when you look at it is not that much thought these are pretty easy tie ins) Heres the thing Rogue one sealed it ( Kyle Katarn originally in the EU led the team to steal the original Death Star plans).

Kyle Katarn is NEVER walking through that door....but Finn is right here if they cared enough to give him a compelling arc all the pieces and story elements are in place and Rey and Kylo still get to be the main event. GIVE FINN HIS DUE DANGIT!!!

 

I can't wait to be the 13th and know what 's ahead for Finn. Because if at the end , he chose the resistance and that means that for eps 9 , he 'll have a resistance 's mission to accomplish again... I'll wait to rent the blu ray next time instead of going to the theater. LOL

 

hat we could have so far in stock for Finn

Finn being FS ( won't happen , at least in this movie, because it will take away from Rey ).
Cardinal being DJ, ( no , because it will be too much interesting plot for Finn. Dj is just a slicer who is going to betray Finn and Rose )
Finn will meet Kylo ren again ( No because Rey is the nemesis, kylo don't care about Finn and it will take away from Rey )
Finn will meet Luke ( No, again , Luke belongs to Kylo and Rey , and since Finn isn't FS, what the point? )

The only enemy Finn will have is : Phasma. ( yes she needs to survive eps 8, so Finn will have something to do and fight against ).

Finn having a romance with rose ( of course, so Reylo feels safe ).
Finn will choose resistance and will go on others resistance missions ( yawn ) to meet and defeat his real enemy phasma.

Finn will save Rey, on the supremacy ( no way, she will blown up the supremacy with her power, that how Finn will succeed to get a riot baton to fight phasma. And Rey may saved him from Phasma after all ).

Finn broke his conditioning ,he must be special too ( Nah, A lot of stormtroopers are like him in fact , nothing special ).

 

I apologise for what is going to be an extensive amount of quoting/replying. This thread has had so many points which i think deserve to be expanded upon and I didn't get round to doing so as soon as I would have liked to, hence the quotes from several pages back. Once more, my apologies.

Absolutely, it seems almost certain that the decision makers behind the ST have made a conscious decision to emulate the OT not just in terms of plot points and setting (which has been noted by all) but even by character archetypes. They have a checklist of characters that they need for the ST to set alongside of the OT:

• Young Jedi hopeful.
• Rogue/reluctant fighter.
• Committed Rebel idealist.

That's not to say those characters will be identical to their OT models but we can confidently predict that the broad essence of their characters will remain within the paths those archetypes dictate. So much so that while many will protest that they are entirely different the variances will amount to (in the grand scheme of things) little different than one character choosing blue as his favourite colour instead of green.

A shame but I think part of the blame lies with OT purist fans rather than the writers at this stage.

It could go one of two ways:

• A neat segue from a scene with Rey where she is undergoing some trauma. A normal scene change which just fits a switch from Rey's scene to Finn without there actually being any real connection between Finn waking up and Rey being in danger.
• Or its a segue from a scene where Rey is experiencing some vision or force related hijinks which suddenly turns surreal (similar to Luke's vision of Vader on Dagobah) which may give Finn waking up more significance.

Its likely going to be the first.

Agreed, to be honest I think this relationship has been undersold and overlooked by both the public and the marketing team, obviously the latter doing so in no small part due to the latter. Now, of course everyone points to ESB as a film where characters only see each other at the start of the film and then are separated for the rest of the film (or until ROTJ for Han) but TLJ seems to be working in the opposite direction. The characters don't see each other at the start of the film and it naturally builds towards them being reunited and, in my honest opinion, that is entirely on purpose for TLJ. Now, hear out my pitch.

Much has been made, by both the cast and the writers/directors, of TLJ being darker, being a test for our characters. And how do you test characters? You make them weak and vulnerable, you tempt them. That's why Finn and Rey are separated for much of TLJ because they are a source of strength for each other (although perhaps Finn is more this for Rey than vice versa). Could you imagine Rey being lost, distraught or confused enough to voluntarily go to Snoke if Finn was around cracking wise being like "lets blow this joint Rey!"? No, of course not. Now perhaps Rose and Phasma are intended to excise Finn from Rey's story and these characters won't interact on a meaningful level again but I feel like one of the largest misdirections of TLJ is that Finn and Rey will have no impact on each other. In some of my headier days of optimism I would even place Finn and Rey's relationship on a par with Rey and Kylo's in terms of importance.

Thus at the end of act II I think we'll find that Rey and Finn have reunited and it will be a moment of certainty in the film. A moment where the characters have crystallised in the decision making process, casting aside the doubts that assailed them throughout the initial stages of the film. This applies to Kylo (who I firmly believe will remain on the dark side) as much as to Rey and Finn.

Perhaps I will be proven wrong but Rey's going to on the Supremacy and it looks like Finn will too......there's no way that isn't at the same time.

Yep, potential for 2 more years of pain if they make it ambiguous.

Wasn't the "big deal" thing between Han and Finn? Why would any other character have heard of Han's quip? This has always irked me about Finn's direction being a "big deal" in the resistance. That and its not that great of an organisation to be a big deal with.

Honestly, if you didn't see a problem with how Han, Leia and Luke interacted in the OT then I shouldn't think you will have any issues with how Finn and Rey interact in the ST. I do have a problem with that and I particularly would like Finn to be something more than another Han but Rey was just as enthusiastic about the Resistance in TFA as Luke was about the Rebellion in ANH so I doubt the trajectory will be that different.

I'm afraid not, DJ is set to be a hacker/information thief who betrays Finn a la Lando except maybe without the regret or with it. Honestly, i don't think there is anything more complex to DJ then another grey Landoesque character.

I think it may be the death of DJ that gets Phasma and Finn in a "lets get serious" mood. Used to think it was Rose but she's been sighted on Crait with some products so likely DJ has a change of heart and sets something off which saves Finn but it costs him his life at the hands of Phasma.

Didn't Rey literally fulfil the same purpose for him in TFA? He said he was a Resistance fighter and she looked at him like a hero, he acted the part for her until he actually was it.

Seems to be doing the same thing for Rose. God that guy is a man-Schutta.

To be honest with you, its quite likely that Rose will show up Finn in the initial part of TLJ: He'll be reluctant, sarky, and trying to get away. Almost like TFA never happened really, I suspect that it won't be until the infiltration of the FO that Finn will take control in their partnership.

Entirely agree, I tried to raise this issue once in a debate over the misuse of Finn's stormtrooper background and how rushed his decision to defect was. However, the debate essentially came down to some people believing humans have an inherent goodness in them or morals are natural rather than taught. I gave up that debate...

I strongly suspect that romance between Finn and Rey was the original idea but, as the ST is not planned out, they tested the waters concerning characters and picked up on the disturbing Reylo phenomena and decided to follow through on that.

Yep, a wasted concept tbh. They could have quite easily stretched out Finn's decision to defect from the FO over the first half of TFA but they brushed over it so damn quickly. Who want's complex, conflicted characters right? Certainly not in Star Wars......

That's exactly right, which is why many of us have argued so vehemently in favour of Finn being FS in order to maintain relevance to the plot and keep him in the thick of it. It is quite plain that at this stage what many of us feared following TFA, that Finn would be reduced due to his lack of FS, is turning out to be correct.

Was Poe advertised heavily for TFA? I certainly think he is a lead in TLJ but in TFA? I don't think so.

People know who Finn is but just don't want to accept it. That's why the debate churns on.

---------------------------------------------------------EDIT-----------------------------------------------------

Hilariously enough, I have seen those exact same answers on several other places, mostly reddit though. However, you're missing the theory that Kylo saves Finn from Phasma and they instantly become best buds over it....lol.

Here's something fun for those of you who believe (or hope) that Finn has been held back on the marketing front because his story has important twists. What do you think those are?

I mean real important twists here, not "Oh no DJ is a traitor" but actually saga changing twists because as far as I see it Finn's plot in TLJ seems pretty straightforward.

 

What on EARTH are they doing to Luke in this movie that his "GREED" is at 40? LOL.

It just seems to me that the rationale to split them up to begin with, continues to exist to keep them separate, particularly after they established in their own domains. Finn appears to get no Force Related development, and Rey appears to get no Resistance related development. They are strengthened in parallel but separate storylines with separate dynamics and separate antagonist, and along the way become even more equipped to act within that domain. Bring them back together... for what? That's what I wonder. Is it so Finn can help Rey on a quest? Or so Rey can help Finn on another mission? The Jedi were not the Rebellion nor the Republic. They worked with them to stop war; but many of the conditions that existed during the prequels, no longer exist. War is already going on, there are no Sith, and the Jedi are almost no more. It appears they spend much of the Rey storyline discussing what happened to Kylo and the Force and Force training, not what strategic mission the Resistance needs to go on. And maybe I'm wrong but it seems like Finn's mission to Canto Bight isn't Force related. It would be plausible in the near future that none of his future missions (because that's what he would be doing as a Resistance Fighter) would have anything to do with the Force but instead the First Order. So to me, I just don't see a reason for the storylines to merge unless one of these characters enters the domain of the other. Either Rey joins the Resistance or Finn has a reason to be on the Force Plot - and thus far there is little metadata to suggest either one happening. Could that change? Sure. I just don't see it right now.

 

I know this is long way down the road, but i really want to see how Jar Jar Abrams will conclude Finn's story arc in ep9 because he is the one that pushed for Boyega to get the job.

 

Strangely, despite the problems that happened under TFA when he was at the helm, I have a better feeling about what he would do with Finn than Rian Johnson. Obviously my opinion could change based on seeing TLJ. From the metadata (which is basically just the marketing) Finn's storyline seems almost an after thought (and the premise feels lazy). Maybe that's meant to lower our expectations and his storyline turns out better than we could have ever imagined.

If it does it puts pressure on JJ to follow up and follow through since he did look to John for the part. If not, then he's got nowhere to go but up. In less than 3 weeks, we find out.

 

Yeah. As of now Finn is neither the main lead, nor force sensitive, nor will he get to romance the main lead Rey. Neither does he have anything cool... You know a personal item witch kids would drool over like the Falcon. Probably won't meet Luke either.

It's like they went out of their way to make Finn as pathetic as possible.

 

the only twist i can imagine being worth them keeping it all secret is this:

 

I don't think Finn is pathetic, I just don't think he's set up to be utilized to his fullest potential. His backstory, as many have pointed out, gives the character tons of potential but it seems like there's a good chance it could be wasted on an unimaginative story. I think that more than anything there aren't any overarching plans for the character in this trilogy. As a result, he's subject to being downplayed in order to keep focus on the characters that do have plans, namely, Rey, Kylo and to a lesser extent Luke.