Official Finn Episode VIII thread

I doubt they will present that everyone can use the force, even non force sensitives. This makes no sense.

 

I mean that everyone can connect with the force if they devote their time to it. If they believe. But some people have a stronger natural connection to it than others (eg Luke Skywalker etc). This has always been the case. But the focus was heavily put upon the Skywalker family in the previous 6 films. Now I think they want to show how the Force is open to everyone if they just let it in...

 

I still dislike the idea. It would bring us less talented force users and talented force users. Why not keep it as force users and normal people?

 

Because that doesn't make sense and a big part of the appeal of Star Wars is the notion, be it metaphorical or literal, that the force is there for everyone. The idea that if you're willing to believe in it and work hard that you can use the force too.

The fact is that the force has a genetic element. It the force itself but in how people connect to it. Luke was always going to have a strong connection because of who his dad was. And with the midichlorians we see that everyone has a chance to listen to the Force but that it is easier for those with more midichlorians.

When Rey hears about the Jedi and after she dies this amazing stuff on Jakku, she opens herself up to the force. She begins to believe. But the same could be said of Finn. He's just done some great stuff, he's just heard the same stories and the force could be connecting with him too.

I don't think this automatically means that Finn is going to be a Jedi but that we are seeing the Force interact with people more clearly now. We are seeing how the story is opening up beyond the Skywalker's. Finn is clearly not on the same level as Rey. But there are most definitely signs that the force is connecting with him and him with it.

 

It still mixes up too many things and leads to less strong force users. Maybe it is indeed the way they want to go with more Chirrut's and less Windu's, but I just find it less compelling.

 

Personally, I prefer stories about the underdogs who need to rely on their strength of will and determination over their natural abilities

 

I'm with @master_shaitan on this one, bring on the less talented force user! : D

 

i don't get the whole thing about potentially less powerful force users. it's not like diluting the bloodline necessarily has any impact on one's FS.

yes, there's a genetic component, but like a recessive gene, a stupidly powerful Force user can emerge from practically Force-null parentage. i think Ben is proof enough of that. yes, he has Skywalker blood, but neither of his parents are particularly adept FS users (and one of them is probably as FS as a brick).

not to mention, like @RockyRoadHux said, i'm all for seeing some different shades in this world. if everyone is stupidly powerful, what's the point?

 

A force user can be born of non-FS parents but it seems that FS parents will always have FS children.
If this isn't the case then the Jedi waiting around for Luke and Leia for 20 years makes no sense.
They knew Anakin's kids would be extremely powerful because of their genes.

The midichlorians explain all this very well as it shows why people are more connected to the Force than others.
But that doesn't mean that someone with less midichlorians can't attain the same level of power through practice and training.

 

i'm not disagreeing with you (in case it came off that way). i'm saying i don't get why anyone would have a problem with varying degrees of FS, or levels of uncertainty regarding the children of FS parents, etc.

i think Luke and Leia were expected to be FS, but there was no guarantee ~ and the fact that neither of them showed any particular proclivity suggests that either the use of Force power is learned and not innate, or at least a component of the resulting power has more to do with training than how many little green bugs you have crawling in your bloodstream (which, let's face it: that's a stupid idea anyway~ hahaha).

we don't know when Ben started training, whether he innately connected to his own power, or if Luke tapped him in. i like a Star Wars world where anyone can tap in (Chirrut?). in which case (to get back on topic), if Finn had the desire to learn the ways of the Force and dedicated himself to it, then there's always the chance that he could come to harness the power too.

that's the world of Star Wars as it was presented to us as kids in 1977. i know the PT rewrote all that, but i also think there's room to unwrite it.
or at least to say that the Force can work on multiple levels.

 

I agree with what a lot of you have said in regards to FS being a genetic mutation which can manifest randomly and be passed down. To me those who are FS are more like mutants or espers/psychics rather than people of great faith. Some would have greater innate talent than others (the Skywalkers) but they would still need to learn to harness their talent, to train it. Similar in some regards to the wizards of the Harry Potter Universe: pureblood families and randomly magical manifestations in "muggles". Furthermore I'm quite confused as to why there is a debate on less powerful force sensitives in comparison to the Skywalkers as we've already been shown such characters: Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Mace Windu, Quinlan Vos etc. you get my point.

The proposition that if everyone just believed in the Force hard enough that they would gain abilities is just nonsensical from an in universe perspective. Leaving aside the matter that belief simply becomes fact when it supports something that is real, why wouldn't entire armies be trained in force abilities in the Star Wars universe? Seriously, if it was clear that following these tenets (insert whatever force belief required) produced soldiers who could predict the future, move objects with their minds, react fast enough to deflect bullets etc. then why wouldn't there be millions of Force Users?

 

i guess i think of it as an art.
anyone can go to school to learn the tenets of painting, develop precise skills, even complete a degree or a certification.
but that doesn't mean, even with great discipline, that all people who take that path will be successful artists.
by the same token, even some of the most talented artists with the greatest aptitude, lack the discipline or other critical skills to achieve success.

 

Martial Arts would be a good parallel. Military personnel and law enforcement personnel are trained in the basics of such arts (mostly to a self defence capacity) so why wouldn't the military forces of a GFFA also have the basic benefits of a Force User? Better reflexes, improved physical capacity, extra-sensory ability etc.

I guess this debate will never be quite settled. I lean on the scientific interpretations of the Force and I'm particularly not too keen on the Force having a will and consciousness of its own.

 

yeah, i don't think the Force has consciousness either. and yes, martial arts is probably a good example. but exactly as you said: look at how law enforcement/military are trained. some martial arts is only a small part of their discipline (if any) even though it's clearly a superior form in a lot of ways.

if people don't understand the Force, then widespread training would not necessarily be available (just like martial arts).

 

Well, martial arts is simply a term for combat training so law enforcement/military are indeed trained relatively extensively in "martial arts" not in the repeated kata of Karate or other traditional (ornamental) eastern martial arts. Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do for example are practical real combat arts rather than sports or ritual/ceremonial martial arts.

I digress, my point is that if there were real tangible benefits to following the "training" of any force user organisation then there would be millions of force adept soldiers. Furthermore, we know that force training "Jedi Arts" was widely available before the empire and imbedded on several highly connected and populated worlds so why wouldn't there be millions of Jedi rather than thousands?

 

in our own world wouldn't there be millions of black belts/samurai/jiu jitsu/krav maga experts?

 

No, because we have firearms. Unfortunately Krav Maga/Karate etc. don't allow humans to deflect bullets or indeed react in time to dodge bullets. Not to mention they do not allow practitioners to move things with their minds. These close combat skills are taught as skills of last resort or restraint measures because firearms are by far the most effective means of combat.

Not to mention armies numbering in the millions are rare even in modern society where long range combat is king. At the time when close quarters combat would have been prevalent there would indeed have been hundreds of thousands of soldiers trained in "martial arts".

 

i go back to my original statement: people wash out of programs (military, law enforcement, underwater bb-stacking, whatever) for all kinds of reasons that may not even be related to aptitude or discipline. human beings are not designed to be homogenous to this degree.

Chirrut studies the Force for 20 years and manages to walk through blaster fire without being hit.
Rey studies it for five minutes and trashes Kylo Ren (with a lot of extra help, but just the Force pull alone is something Chirrut couldn't do).

so an army in the galaxy can spend time and resources trying to identify and raise strong Force users (sounds like the creepy Jedi and their baby-snatching), or they can rely on more traditional and more easily learnable skills ~ like firing a blaster.

which is exactly what the Empire did, after rejecting the Jedi and their voodoo as anathema. right?

Force users are rare, dangerous, and unpredictable in a gffa.

 

People wash out of military/law enforcement et.c for multiple reasons (physical fitness, attitude, stress) but still hundreds of thousands are able to be trained in this basic "martial arts" techniques. In your interpretation of "Force access" as long as some one tries hard enough then they too may be able to harness the force or in other words those "strong" force users are simply fast learners rather than uniquely gifted with a connection to the Force. What I'm saying if that was the case then why aren't there galactic armies with basic force abilities?

What are the most difficult force abilities? We don't know for sure but perhaps we can assume that mind tricks, force lightning and distant precognition are among those which require the most training. Those which don't require a great deal of mastery can definitely include enhanced reactions (or as Qui-Gon would say "Jedi reflexes") as TPM and ANH would seem to imply that these are a tell tale sign of FS and are used instinctively. Who knows how difficult telekinesis and increased agility are but regardless with the above in mind why wouldn't there be large galactic armies with bullet timers amongst them?

The examples you use are problematic too.

Rey's miraculously quick learning (studied is far too generous) of Force abilities is still held to be b******t by a large amount of the "fandom", so to speak and doubtless will require explanation or else forever be doomed as a taboo topic. In fact this ridiculous trait of Rey's would generally support the idea that FS is a unique (genetic) talent as she just picks it up.

Chirrut on the other hand is even more problematic. As far as I'm aware TPTB are still sticking with him being non-FS and his fighting prowess is due to some devices which help him become the Star Wars "Daredevil". Some of the stuff he did in RO was also b******t without being FS but hey if that's what they want to do. Furthermore, if Chirrut was FS then he spent 20 years learning random mumbo jumbo not learning genuine "Jedi Arts" hence his lack of abilities. In that case Chirrut would be an example of a FS who was not given the appropriate training to harness his abilities.

 

So most people don't want him to be a Jedi? Man, that's pretty sad. I hope he'll end up becoming a Jedi in the new order or something. That's the only way it could make up for his terrible characterisation in TFA.

Looking forward to 8...hoping for some hints on his force sensitive. Otherwise he'll end up with a boring resistance soldier arc.