1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Rian Johnson saved the Jedi from George Lucas

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    No more Anakins, please!

    I think we haven't heard the last from and about Snoke. For someone who exhibited the most profound command of the Force in the whole Saga he came down too easy.

    What will the story be about in 9? Who is going to be the villain?
    Introducing a new one makes no sense from the narrative point of view.
    Upgrading an existing one? Who?
    Kylo Ren? That one is positioned for redemption.
    Hux? I don't think so, not based on how they portrayed him in 8...a weak manipulated weasel with no backbone or courage. They made him have no resolve or tenacity to take what he wants. He has no power or purpose in TLJ except being an object of mocking and pushing around by pretty much everyone, Poe, Snoke, Kylo...If he would suddenly rise as a big baddie because everyone maltreated him and he will now show them just how cool he is, that would make for a pitiful villain. I incomparably prefered Hux from TFA and find it, sad in the lack of a better word, what they did to him in this one. Because I am not sure I would ever again be able to take him seriously as a charachter.
    Phasma? She is definitely dead.

    Investing in Snoke through 2 movies just to have him so casually obliterated is not logical. For me it is not inconcievable that he returns in similar form like Luke will return to continue his reign and influence. Judging from Yoda's performance in TLJ (when he summoned a lightning out of the blue) Force Ghosts have learned how to interfere with the physical world in very aggresive and affective manner. They no longer have a solely consular role.

    The Last Jedi broke new grounds in the lore in such ways that ST could never result as a PT rehash. Even if they do make Kylo Ren a new Anakin.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Posts:
    1,039
    Likes Received:
    1,434
    Trophy Points:
    5,567
    Credits:
    1,549
    Ratings:
    +2,260 / 22 / -18
    IX will be Hux's time to shine as the new star child of evil! Jk.

    Snook is probably laughing his bottom off with the emperor and Darth plaguis in hell, sniping about "that Maclunkey emo Kylo and his superstar squad (aka KOR). By that, I mean I think he would jump at the chance to mess with Kylo again.

    Last Jedi WA as cool movie, it was different, which was why so many people hated it. They wanted safe retread of SW 3.0, with Luke as the OP hero again.
     
  3. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    You mean a rabid cur of evil, surely :D

    They surely did make Kylo an emo lord in this one...in fact most of the charachters regressed instead of developped forward...I decided not to worry about it until I see ep. 9, then I'll make my decision.

    It is a cool movie. I loved it. Aside of the parts that make me cringe...which are not numerous.
    I love its humor, but at times it almost feels like the movie mocks itself.
    I love Luke's story arc, he finally feels realistic now. And wise...I wonder where he learned that which he was teaching Rey...because it sure isn't what the Jedi of PT and OT thaught. I teared up when he perished, and he never was my favorite charachter. That cought me by surprise.

    I'm exited about 9 and really looking forward to it...no matter where the story takes us.
     
  4. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,220
    Trophy Points:
    11,667
    Credits:
    7,106
    Ratings:
    +5,164 / 26 / -7
    Good point. I'd be curious to know if it was a deliberate choice that idea wasn't driven home.

    My take on all this seems similar - the Jedi 'failed' when they diverged from being Jedi. (I know it's Star Wars but I'm assuming that war was not a usual or useful Jedi method of settling the unavoidable conflicts that happen between different groups.)

    I always thought Rose's sentiments before passing out sounded a little out of place in TLJ. Curiously her conviction about winning by saving what you love and not fighting what you hate could be read as a direct answer to the PT Jedi Order's dilemma. Sure on a certain level her words assume a false dichotomy that sounds counter-intuitive because we (and the Jedi) know there's times when the saving and the fighting intersect.

    But they serve as a useful warning: that once the agenda shifts from responsibility to protect into proactive aggression you're probably heading down a darker path. If the prevention of violence ever takes a backseat to the violence itself then it's time to reassess your methodology.

    War is about annihilation and ultimately for the Jedi, about self-annihilation.

    aldous quote.png
    Yeah I've noticed there's differing views about moralizing in fiction and there's good points on all sides. :confused:
    I'm particularly confused today after re-reading some of Neil Gaiman's thoughts on the obligations of children's fiction writers...

    "Writers have an obligation to their readers. It's the obligation to write true things – especially important when we are writing tales of people who do not exist in places that never were. To understand that truth is not in what happens but in what it tells us about who we are. Fiction is the lie that tells the truth after all.

    ...And while we must tell our readers true things, and give them weapons, and armor, and pass on whatever wisdom we have gleaned from our short stay on this green world, we have an obligation not to preach, not to lecture, not to force pre-digested morals down our readers throats like adult birds feeding our babies pre-masticated maggots."


    I guess when it gets put that way I'm glad the SW writers don't get too didactic!
    It's nice to have some ambiguity out there for us viewers to discuss anyways.
     
    #44 Moral Hazard, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  5. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Posts:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,498
    Trophy Points:
    6,192
    Credits:
    2,426
    Ratings:
    +2,387 / 393 / -173
    A "flawless, intangible image of goodness"????? Is that the only way the Jedi can be perceived? As flawless and ideal characters? How boring is that? Oh wait . . . boring as hell. I also find such characterizations as examples of bad writing. I had no problems with Lucas subverting the Jedi. He began doing it the moment Luke discovered Vader's true identity and realized that Obi-Wan had lied to him. I don't need to believe that the Jedi were perfect. Although I found nothing wrong with their teaching - superficially - I did find fault in how they perceived and utilized the Force. But I have no problems with that. Their flawed nature only made them interesting to me.

    And Rian Johnson didn't rescue blast. All he did was write a bad movie as far as I'm concerned. I don't mind when something or someone is subverted. I do mind it when it is done with bad writing. Which as far as I'm concerned, Johnson did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,384
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,548
    Ratings:
    +11,483 / 20 / -1
    I think the PT made the Jedi seem clueless and idiotic. Why would they want to balance the force, if they had total control? Why couldn't they see the writing on the wall when it came to the Republic's fall. I think Johnson sort of clarified that the Jedi are flawed, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Like Yoda said the greatest teacher failure is. Luke was just tired of the cyclical failure of the Jedi and he wanted to end it, but then realized that isn't the answer.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    Johnson established that the whole premise of the Jedi Order is wrong. Luke tried to pass on the Jedi Order teachings too and that resulted in the birth of Kylo Ren and his own personal failure. He realized then that The legacy of The Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris.
    What we hear him teach Rey is something else. He mentions balance. And convoluted nature of two aspects of the Force, the light and the darkness.
    The Jedi Order didn't teach understanding of that connection. It arogantly negated the dark side in a way that left them blind to its influence among themselves. Windu for one was quite the dark one (pun intended). The vanity, which is not associated with the light side, was strong in that one.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,384
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,548
    Ratings:
    +11,483 / 20 / -1
    Yes he wants to teach Rey from a different approach. If the Je di way is failure, then repeating those teachings is the definition of insanity.
    Luke then had access to the sacred texts, long lost during the time of the prequels. If he read them, which he didn't to it's entirety, he would know the full nature of the force better than any Jedi so far. He would know better about balance, than his predecessors.
     
  9. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    You think the Jedi Order wasn't in possession of those texts?
     
  10. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,384
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,548
    Ratings:
    +11,483 / 20 / -1
    No. The temple was long lost. If they knew force yoda, or kenobi would have told him. He had to search for it.
     
  11. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    How did Yoda appear there? Solely because of Luke?
    He knew about those texts. He even knew Rey took them away otherwise he would have never set the tree on fire.
     
  12. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,384
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,548
    Ratings:
    +11,483 / 20 / -1
    Perhaps Luke needed to find the Temple without the help of Yoda's intervention. I'm sure Yoda became aware of the location through divine clairvoyance after he became a spirit, but not while he was alive.
     
  13. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    Devine clairvoyance of the Force Ghosts?

    Is that canon?
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Cute Cute x 1
  14. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    10,384
    Trophy Points:
    88,767
    Credits:
    6,548
    Ratings:
    +11,483 / 20 / -1
    Johnson: I will make it CANON. Lol
     
  15. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    852
    Likes Received:
    10,046
    Trophy Points:
    89,117
    Credits:
    7,766
    Ratings:
    +11,370 / 29 / -4
    We get some interesting insight on how Force ghosts work from Claudia Grey's story in From A Certain Point Of View. Minor spoilers to follow, if you care: force ghosts are literally one with the force, not existing as individual entities in time/space until they manifest in one place, at which point them fracture themselves from the force, in some sense, before returning. The force being everywhere, it would seem that a force ghost can manifest anywhere.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Posts:
    321
    Likes Received:
    548
    Trophy Points:
    3,417
    Credits:
    817
    Ratings:
    +734 / 7 / -8
    Obi-Wan told Luke Yoda would always be with him so he likely can be anywhere Luke is.

    I also think it is reasonable to think being one with the force would increase the access to knowledge maybe to something akin to omniscience.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    1,971
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    4,865
    Ratings:
    +7,355 / 32 / -9
    Luke: There is still good in him.
    Ghost-bi-Wan: He's more machine now than man...twisted and evil.

    Maybe not ‘omniscient’ exactly :) ‘Omnipresent’ maybe?

    EDIT: For funzies

    Like @Jaxxon said, the Force is supposedly ubiquitous in this galaxy. It exists everywhere at once. Reasonably then, someone who’s become ‘one with’ this Force would also exist everywhere. So they could potentially appear anywhere. If you connect to the Force then, logically, you’re in some way connected to them and they could appear to you wherever you are.

    Luke, it was distinctly stated, had intentionally cut himself off from the Force but after Rey’s arrival had opened back up to it at some level. So it makes sense Yoda hadn’t appeared until that moment. It’s also established canon that thoughts can, in some way, be communicated via the Force. Being OF the Force, it’s not impossible to deduce that Yoda is aware of other Force user’s thoughts. So he’d know what Rey had done. That being said, I think he would've burned that tree regardless, but that’s just me :)
     
    #57 eeprom, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    Thank you. That is very interesting.
    Do you know, can dark side users become force ghosts? Not like Vader through redemption, but I am more curious about charachters like Snoke. I don't see why not if the Force is not something that belongs to the Jedi (light side users) only like TLJ suggests.
     
  19. Thretosix

    Thretosix Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Posts:
    77
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    2,892
    Credits:
    598
    Ratings:
    +233 / 0 / -1
    The Supreme Leader is "Wise" (emperor)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Well let's hope that JJ will save Luke, Snoke, The Knights of Ren and Phasma from Rian :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Pessimistic Pessimistic x 1
Loading...

Share This Page