Should Kylo Ren be Redeemed?

Go for it -))

 

Yeah, that's a great point. He's killed his fair share of people and has been complicit in way too many people's death (starkiller, jedi temple, village, etc.) to get a seamless Get Out of Jail Free card from the audience (especially after Han) if he has a change of heart. If there is a redemption at all, I do think it will need to be a messy transition, mayberesulting in his death, but I am not sure if I can decide that he has to die in the act of being redeemed. He didn't stop the New Republic from being destroyed, but he didn't suggest it--also I don't think the Starkiller scene didn't weigh that emotionally heavy in the film (or with the audience either, in my opinion). I also think this would be too close Vadar's redemption. But I still think that it would have to be a messy and emotional transition, maybe not one that brings about logical retribution, but enough retribution to convince the audience of his viability to be redeemed. It'll also be interesting to see how much of an influence Snope had on his turn to the darkside, how young he was, and what exactly took place. If he really went through hardships at this time, or if he was just pouty and angsty.

Thanks for the post too, I think you bring up some valuable things to consider.

 

Can Kylo Ren be redeemed? Sure, it is possible.

Should Kylo Ren be redeemed? This is the tougher question and I think we need to look more closely at what that means... and from which perspective. If we are asking in the context of the movie universe, the question is really: Does Kylo Ren deserve to be redeemed? This we cannot know yet, as we do not know the full backstory for him, the circumstances and other characters that "created" him, and the circumstances he will be presented with that give rise to the opportunity for redemption.

If we are asking in the context of movie production and storytelling, redemption is a central tenet of the Star Wars saga, so I would be surprised if it is not present in some form. In fact, we already have a mini-redemptive character in Finn having turned his back on the First Order (not that we have any reason to suspect that he has been directly involved in any "wrongdoing"). Besides, who is to say that it will be Kylo Ren that has the redemptive arc? Maybe it will be Rey? Maybe even Luke, depending on what actually happened with Kylo Ren's betrayal and the abandonment of Rey on Jakku. Perhaps this will be the "PT" of the new movies, meaning Episodes VII-IX are the "fall" and creation of the villain, with the redemption not taking place until Episodes X-XII (if those movies are made). After all, I am thinking that the Kylo Ren story that we are getting is what the Anakin Skywalker story should have been both from the production and storytelling perspectives.

In any event, I fully expect that redemption will be a central theme in the new movies and Kylo Ren is certainly set up to be the character on that path. But I would be pleasantly surprised if the character arc for others is also a little more convoluted in this way, too.

 

I like the idea of this being the PT of a new saga. I hadn't thought of that before. I can't help but envision what it would have been like to see Anakin's story unfold without knowing what will happen (I wasn't around to see the OT in theaters, so it's nice to have the same kind of excitement and mystery to the universe again in terms of story progression). I think we would have a much more cohesive, natural story line with Kylo in this sense too.

 

I have been advocating for a "messy" redemption, but honestly I could go either way. But I definitely want it one way or the other, not with a convenient switch to the light side in death. The outcomes are:

1) Bad guy Kylo Ren makes a decision to turn to the light and dies saving Rey/Finn/Luke/Leia/the galaxy. Just like Vader. I'm not a fan of this one. I was okay with thematic similarities in TFA because we're setting up a new trilogy but I don't want the whole thing to be a carbon copy of the OT.

2) Kylo Ren continues to do bad guy things because he thinks it is too late for him now and he really believes he's doing the "right" thing. But some piece of information might change his mind later - he learns who Vader really was at the end of his life, he understands why Luke/Han/Leia did what they did in the past (he seems bitter about something). In that case he may be the only one who can really save them from Snoke and he will turn. Now the whole galaxy knows that he saved them, but they also know all the evil things he did. Ben Skywalker becomes a broken man living in self-exile and a cautionary tale to young Jedi apprentices everywhere. Perhaps he even has a child that he sees as his chance to "make things right".

3) Kylo Ren thinks it's too late for him and just keeps making the wrong decisions, the entire time trying to convince himself that they are the right ones. He is a conflicted character that Luke tries to redeem until the very end. He may even take down Luke with himself in his ultimate defeat. In this case he is the truly tragic figure that Anakin should have been at the end of RotS. In this case there should be parts of us pulling for him to see the error of his ways.

Option 2 and 3 could both work for me. 1 is too lazy and I don't want it.

 

Yes!! Option 1 is lazy, and I think you present examples that show that other, more compelling story lines can be created, not recycled.

 

He should. His ears shouldn't....

 

Like many others have said, Kylo's redemption depends on whether it is believable in the context of the story and if it is written well enough that the audience can accept it. The former is not so difficult as TFA has made it very plain that Kylo is torn between the light and dark side and the murder of Han may not have ended that internal struggle depending on how the writers wish to handle his character. They can either treat him as a Jaime or a Joffrey, forgive me for this GoT reference but I have been re-reading ASOIAF recently.

1. Jaime Route: Like Jaime we are introduced to Kylo as a very reprehensible character: kills a defenceless old man, orders the slaughter of defenceless villagers, kills the other jedi apprentices and is privy to the slaughter of billions of people. However, the death of Han(Jaime losing his hand) could result in Kylo's gradual redemption as the remorse and guilt tears him away from the dark side: This theory has been postulated by quite a few people. Preferably this would result in him leaving Snoke and the First order during the middle of and at the end of Episode VIII not to join the Republic(I'm assuming the resistance has disbanded to rejoin the growing Republican military) but to become a more neutral/wild card character consumed by his regret. I haven't read a great deal of the old EU material but one story I do remember from my childhood concerned the story of Ulic Qel-Droma(sp?), a jedi who fell to the dark side but was redeemed after he killed his brother and I think Kylo(or Ben) could mirror this story. Not cut off from the force like Ulic, don't need any of that crazy force spells crap, but Ben could end up living in a self-imposed exile in between ep.VIII and ep.IX before returning to help. This route is more difficult to write because the writers have to come up with dialogues and scenarios that make this turn about both believable and sympathetic which is why I don't think Disney will choose this option.
2. Joffrey Route: A Joffrey like character can best be summarised as a character you love to hate and with his betrayal of Luke and the murder of Han, Kylo seems to already be this type of character for many people. You can tell this by the way Kylo is mocked by the audience as a stroppy emo and how many are willing to hand wave his defeat simply because they really wanted to seem him get his face kicked in. Therefore Han's murder will result in Kylo completely falling to the dark side and he will emerge in ep. VIII as a more controlled and powerful villain, and lets face it he needs to if he ever has a hope of looking like a threat to Rey. Despite his improvements, assuming his training is successful, Kylo will likely be defeated again at the end of ep.VIII both to avoid mimicking ESB and to let the audience enjoy laughing at this ineffectual and hated villain. Unfortunately this is the most likely direction that Disney will choose to take Kylo's character because it's both easier to write and because it doesn't involve rejigging the character traits established by TFA. For example a redeemed Kylo would work much better if Rey fell to the dark side at the end of ep.VIII, which would, in my opinion, really add a dimension to her character, but Disney won't do that to their new female role model: it must always be remembered that Star Wars is primarily aimed at children so simplicity is the name of the game.

My preference is the first option as it could add some nuance and depth to the trilogy but it is far more likely that the story will simply be Rey besting Kylo and Snoke maybe with Luke or after he's died.

 

Liked the GoT references. Valar morghulis.

 

NOPE!!!!
R.I.P Han Solo

 

Yes, he will be redeemed. He's already half way down the path. Let me explain....

• Han's touch of his hand on Kylo's face as he fell to his death has imprinted on Kylo the light side of the force. Exactly the same thing happened to Finn when his buddy died on Jakku. With Finn we could see the physical handprint in blood (I suspect JJ/LK wanted the make the symbolism as clear as possible). For both these characters the trauma of death and the love of their friend or family member is the catalyst to the light.

• It's obvious (from the novel at least) that killing his father didn't make Kylo Ren stronger in the dark side. Kylo knows this and I suspect in Episode 8 it will become apparent to him that Snoke is lying to him about everything.

• If they wanted to show Kylo Ren couldn't be redeemed they would've shown him kill Leia in a similar situation (and not Han). There would've been no way back from killing his mother.

 

Nope.

 

just redeem the sob so we can close this thread.

 

I don't agree. I think the audience would've been truly horrified if it was Leia killed on that bridge in that style by her son. Hollywood has all kinds of rules for things like this. It would be just too upsetting for many and not good for business for a family movie. I suspect a matricide storyline will be left with 'Psycho' and 'Night of the Living Dead'.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

I suspect the only thing worse than matricide for Hollywood writers would be something like showing the death of a cute animal on screen.

 

This is one of those things that could go either way (there are strong arguments to both sides)



Personally i would prefer Kylo to be really bad and kill everybody.

(Killing a Mother, a Father or a Brother is exactlly the same terrible thing, the line is drawn in killing your own sons)

 

But he's not going to is he? Does anyone realistically see him killing Finn or Poe? Luke maybe but definitely not Rey. Bad guys lose, that's how stories usually go and especially stories by disney.

Probably because him being redeemed or something similar, e.g. defecting from KoR, would be unpredictable in contrast to if he stayed evil. If he stayed evil then we basically know how it will go down: he's stronger in ep.VIII and beats Rey/kills Luke; He then gets beaten in ep.IX by Rey. People like to speculate about Kylo being redeemed because the ground is fertile for this theory and it's a little different from the usual.

 

Thanks for your post JPT. I agree with none of it but I like your heart. And I mean that.

 

i definitely think he will be redeemed, i cant see disney going down the route of some people just want to be evil and you can't do anything about it.

would be interesting if Kylo did die for the dark side of the force, would be an interesting direction to go in.

also been thinking it would be interesting if Kylo and the First Order wins at the episode 9, kind of like the sith win at the end of the prequel trilogy, i don't think people will see it coming and will give them somewhere to go in episode 10, 11 and 12.

 

Honestly i think the Redemption of Kylo Ren is the direction this is going, justified by the phrase Leia said to Han "He still has some good in him", most likely it will be Leia who ultimate redeem Kylo in a scene similar to Han's death scene just before Kylo saves everybody in Episode IX.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

But why state that SW Expanded Universe is no more and then play Jacen & Jaina Solo story in the movies?