Snoke is a fallen Angel

from the time i was 6 and first saw Star Wars, i watched Darth Vader redeem himself by throwing Palpatine down a shaft to destroy him.

if that's not evil getting its just desserts, i don't know what is.

 

And there's me telling you to come up with non-Plagueis theories...

 

He was influenced by Tolkien.

a quick example:

• Lewis: Aslan (Lion):
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan
  • http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Aslan

• Lucas: Ashla (early name for the Light side of the Force):

• http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_side_of_the_Force/Legends
• re-canonized via the "Lasat" episode of Rebels: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lasat

​

See also:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_Star_Wars#Influences

JediMasterRobert

 

[geek]It's Istari...[/geek]

Star Wars angels are a race of beings, not supernatural immortals.

 

That looks like something from the Clone Wars. Did they bring the 'angels' back that Anakin talked about in episode 1? If so what episodes?

EDIT: never mind. I found it: Mystery of a Thousand Moons

Whats sad is I own the first season on DVD and dont remember this episode at all. Will now give it a rewatch. Thanks for sharing Revanite. This seems completely plausible to me as something they might choose

 

Okay, did some brainstorming on the "Snoke as Fallen Angel" theory, and it leads into very strange potential connections (or dead ends).

Here we go:

Snoke could be a phonetic anagram of Enoch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)
(the great-grandfather of Noah)​

-- not necessarily a rendition of Enoch (or Enoch's "inverse") but perhaps a name intended to be echoic of The [Apocryphal] Book of Enoch...

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
• http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm
• http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01602a.htm
• http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM

...wherein there are Watchers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(angel)

....fallen angels who fathered the Nephilim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/nephilim.html

There's something almost undeniably relevant in this puzzle piece.

Check this out: Chapter 12 of the Book of Enoch
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM#Chapter 12
Some quotes:

• "Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was hidden and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers...."
• "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: and ye shall have no peace..."

Some random thoughts and correlations...

Snoke (if Plagueis) would be the great-grandfather of Ben Solo (Anakin being the grandfather, Han being the father).

Luke went into hiding, and it had to do with Snoke.

Leia revealed to Han she knew Snoke watched Ben from the start.

Sith code: peace is a lie.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_the_Sith
​

There's probably more there, if this is a valid line of speculation, but let's see where this goes....

(...if nothing more than to further reveal the fractal nature of reality)

JediMasterRobert

 

Smoke is the literal embodiment of the force .

 

Oh wow, so much good stuff in this thread. I like it all, especially @master_shaitan's Whills theory.

 

Anakin as a kid thought Padme is an alien (cute one) .

How romantic.
And this means, "canon", just like Jar-Jar and midiclorians.

How we came from cute Aliens from Liego to the serious debate about dead-alike Snoke, please remind me someone, slowly, maybe I will catch up .

 

Star Wars (especially the PT) was already full of christian overtone. The virgin birth, the chosen one, the prophecy, Maul's appearance etc.
But as much as the angel idea makes sense, I also still hope for Plagueis.

 

Let us , than, feel the true (possible) nature of the Dark side.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Evil , it starts firstly (in almost every known mythology) by the fall of the higher beings - angels, to the Dark side.

Than comes the corruption of pure mortals, humanoids.

What if indeed Snoke was a memeber of higher race ("angels")that was good and beautifull ( as Anakin says to Padme in Phantom Menace) but one became outcast, a Renegade, and turned to the Dark Side.

Maybe he created the Dark side itself by twisting the properties of the Light side.
In this case Dark side is relative, dependant on the creative universal eternal Force which is Light , but Dark side twists the Light, and in fact needs the light as the source of everything is in the Light.

The Dark side is like a cancer within only true reality- which is The eternal universal creative Force,the life, the Light.

Maz Kanata says to Rey: The Light — It's Always Been There.
Yoda says: The Force, Life creates IT

So did the Dark side, came after ?

Did this fallen being actualy started the first order of the Dark side, millenia ago, corrupted humanoids, influenced many of the Force sensitive humanoids to follow the Dark Side, which resulted in creation of the Dark Jedi, and followed by the Sith.

He is not a Sith, he was before the Sith , and all came came after .

He established the First Order of the Dark side.

Palpatine has once ( canon novel: Aftermath) searched for this "Source of the Dark Side"...

 

I do as well, and I think you've tapped into what might proved to be an integral piece of the Snoke puzzle.

I'm glad you helped expand this discussion and perhaps even found a way to preserve the Plagueis aspect.

I can only hope the Story Group has something comparably profound in mind with Snoke, so he is a worthy adversary in this Sequel Trilogy.

One distant thought I had about this was to remember Kirk, in Star Trek V, ask, "What does God need with a starship?"

But I think Snoke is meant to be a mortal being, even as the Diathim were said to be fascinated by spaceships.

This could be the ultimate combination, something which expands the mythology, goes to the root of conflict between Jedi and Sith, brings the Skywalker full circle, and more.

And the parallel of Luke seeking the First Jedi Temple only seems to accentuate Snoke in this ancient context.

Then Luke's decision to go into exile and regroup begins to make sense: this was not simply another enemy but rather THE enemy.

Perhaps then Disney does intend to wrap up the Skywalker storyline by Episode IX.

I could imagine Rey at the end with Luke (who I hope survives this trilogy):

Rey: So we just defeated the ultimate evil in the galaxy. Now what?

Luke: This was only the beginning. There's still a war of ignorance. The battle of Darkness and Light rages on in every person.

Rey: How can we possibly fight that?

Luke: We must become teachers now. Share the lessons of the Darkness, the wisdom of the Light. So there can be truth, and there may yet be peace.​

Then future Star Wars stories can be more character-based, even still involve the Force, while acknowledging the imperfections and potential evil which always there in some form, especially as so few people (in Star Wars or in our own world) seem to learn from history.

JediMasterRobert

 

I think if Snoke is a fallen angel or Whill then, to be frank, he won't be Plagueis as well.
There is just too much going on there. Too much confusion. I'm not saying that we couldn't come up with a great story to connect both ideas.
Personally, there are a load of ideas that this throws up in my head (maybe "throws up" is the perfect phrase in this respect!) that are very interesting when Snoke is an angel is Plagueis.
However, for the average Joe, it will be confusing. He's an ancient being, that fell from grace, turned evil, joined the Sith, created life, cheated death, went into exile, stopped being a Sith, became a [God-knows-what] and then looks to take over the galaxy. It's just too much. An attempt to fit in all our lovely theories!

I have to say, I am warming to the idea of him just being an ancient Whill. That could, with some extra story elements, blend into Skywalker Saga (in regard to the Chosen One story and prophesy) reasonably well. It would especially work because Snoke then might not always have been evil and only recently fallen from grace. This would explain why he didn't impact the balance and also why he didn't make a power grab at some point prior to the Sith's destruction.

It's clear that the balance of the Force idea is once again going to be a big part of this trilogy. It had to be really, but they might have sidestepped it somewhat. However, it is front and centre of the conflict. So really, Snoke has to be directly involved in that and perhaps not in an identical way to which Palpatine was. Do we really need another uber baddie who just wants to take over the galaxy and in the process disrupts the balance? Maybe it would be more interesting for him to have another angle, as some have suggested, where Snoke is more interested in having dominance over the Force in some way rather than just the galaxy? Perhaps his view is on balance but from a different perspective? This of course could tie in with Plagueis who by the sounds of it did achieve some God-like abilities and his focus is speculated by many to be more on the Force than ruling the galaxy.

However, I do think it best to separate Plagueis from the Whill/Angel idea for the reasons I state. My thoughts are that the Plagueis story is more anchored in the Star Wars realm. it ties in the trilogies very neatly and answers some questions that have been left hanging. However, one must admit that the anti-Plagueis comments from LFL individuals does suggest that this isn't the angle they are going to take. And it is also evident that in going in a new direction (as long as it ties in directly with the Skywalker saga in my opinion) it might open up the mythological tale somewhat and allow for some new, interesting concepts to surface.

I'm not breaking up with Plagueis. We're just going on a break.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 8, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 8, 2016 ---

Just as a sidenote: I do personally think it important for this trilogy to broach the subject of Plagueis in some way. This guy achieved a remarkable power that every Dark Sider would seek - the power over death. The power to create life. I believe he definitely achieved these things (certainly he cheated death for others). And so it wouldn't make sense to leave this hanging. Other evil doers would seek these powers. I also think they need to establish how Anakin was created. If he was a product of the Force then this would surely just keep happening every time the Force goes out of balance? If Rey isn't another Space Jesus or the Force didn't suddenly jump into her body (yikes) then this does throw up a contradiction. Why create Anakin and not another chosen one later on? This to me suggests Anakin was created by someone and so this should be investigated. And if you're going to go to the lengths of using the Plagueis story here to explain Anakin's origins then you may as well go further with him...

But this of course doesn't mean that only Plagueis could create life. He might have learned his power from somewhere else. So if Plagueis ISN'T the fallen angel/Whill then this ancient being might too have had the power that Plagueis was said to have had. And maybe it could be written that this being's first step in trying to force through his agenda was in making the prophesy a self fulfilling one - and created Anakin to do his will (no pun intended). Yet when Anakin perhaps fails (in the Whills eyes) or the balance is short lived he feels he needs to take another course of action.

This doesn't make the Whill right by the way (in wanting his kind of balance). My view is that he would have a warped perspective because we know that he, Snoke, is a Dark Sider. He has been corrupted. But perhaps his agenda in regards to balance is not like the agenda of the Jedi? I'm not sure I can fully comprehend yet what a different perspective on balance would look like to a being like Snoke before he has turned bad. It's hard to explain what I mean here but I guess what I am trying to get at is essentially - What is balance? I always had it as the equality of good and evil in the universe - and dark siders warp this by empowering the evil. However, it seems Lucas (in some quotes) saw it as the lack of Dark Side and dominance of light.

So the questions for me go:

1. Before Snoke was evil, how did he view balance?
2. What turned him evil?
3. Did turning evil obscure or change his view on balance?
4. What would his perspective be now and how does it tie in with his actions thus far?

On that note, I'd better get back to work.

[KENOBI]Why do I get the feeling this saga is going to be the death of me?[/KENOBI]

 

Unfortunately, I was wrong.
I was struck by yesterday's clear Pablo Hidalgo's confirmation that Snoke is not Plagueis.

I was forced ,as many ,to conform, addapt, or choose to die as a Star Wars fan.

If they choosed Fallen angel, or Will approach it may be the only alternative to Plagueis.

And I think its even more grandieur than Plagueis as this pushes Star wars into resolving metapysical problems.
This, afteral, can suite me and I believe majority of ex Plagueites.
I hope , after I slept well this night, this is the case if Snoke isn't Plagueis.

Star Wars worths as much s its main villain is strong and elaborate, its an epic fight of Good and Evil.This is the problem of main villain I expressed many times.

This approach, satissfies the main villain prerequisites for Star wars.

I just hope, that Disney understands that Snoke needs to be well elaborated an ultimaately strong, and can't be some pop-up lesser Force user, former imperial commander, apprentice, or stuff like that.

 

I have had many similar days and nights of conflict, @McDiarmid - you're not alone in that!

I think the key things for this villain are:

1) Be different from Palpatine. Not necessarily bigger and more powerful. But he must provide a different challenge for the heroes than has been faced in previous trilogies else it is pointless.
2) Have a direct connection to the Skywalker saga - from beginning to end. That would likely include Anakin's origins and the prophesy. This villain can't just jump into the middle of the saga and take over Sidious' reins. He must have relevance from earlier in my opinion.
3) Have a very good explanation for why we are only now hearing of him. Where has he been? If evil all along, why not make a power grab sooner? Where did he learn his powers? Why emerge soon after when the Sith are destroyed? Why didn't he impact upon the balance of the Force?
4) His powers - has he cheated death (Sure looks like it) - how? What made him look that way? His injuries must again link into the saga story - and he has injuries, it's not just dark side corruption and being old IMO. He's scarred. So what happened there?

 

Some more potential evidence supporting the "Snoke is a Whill" / Fallen Angel theory:

The Force Awakens novelization begins with a quotation from the Journal of the Whills:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Force_Awakens_(novel)

More importantly, this inclusion is said to be the when the Journal was "first made canon":
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Journal_of_the_Whills

I always thought it was one of those permanently canonical things, but it's a relief to see it formally recognized as part of the storyline now.

And perhaps this is done with a purpose of eventually introducing us to the Whills.

JediMasterRobert