The More I Try The Less I Like Disney's Star Wars

So for those on this thread who believe Disney is destroying Lucas' vision, what do you think his vision is? How would you view it? The reason I ask is because none of you could have predicted what Lucas envisioned for the PT and it upset many fans who learned he had a different vision than they did. So it's safe to take the leap that no one would have any further ability to guess where he would have taken the ST.

Where TFA and the ST currently have issues with me is the modern storytelling device of giving us questions to keep us interested with the sometimes unfulfilled promise of answering them. I call it the Lost Problem. Lost did this and it upset many fans who demanded answers. Filoni pulled this maneuver by making Ahsokas fate unknown stating he wanted the fans to decide for themselves on and individual basis.

Will we get all the answers we want and of the ones we get, will they be to our individual satisfaction? No and it depends on what you expect from Star Wars.

My prediction always has been TLJ will be devisive and will make TFA a better. But in 10 years, TLJ will be appreciated just as ESB took a solid decade and the PT took the same amount of time to gain appreciation.

 

Excellent words Amanaman! Coudln't have said it better myself. If people tried a bit harder to understand what it means to follow up on an excellent story that has already been established instead of trying to gun down and bash anyone who cares so much for the story but who identifies obvious flaws, we would all get along more and understand each other. You can't say that Rey was too overpowered or Finn was too comical for a FO bred Stormtrooper without the Bantha Poodoo hitting the fan when these comments really do come from fans who want the best for SW and don't want the franchise ruined like so many have been these days.

 

@Amanaman @Burter
For what i gather from your words you think sw in ot was the story of pure light vs pure evil and adding grayness and conflict to the old and new charachters is bad and not as intended by GL?

Personally I think...when he redeemed Vader in ot it was pretty much obvious exclusive Good vs. Evil was not in his mind.
He made the PT, didnt he, and there already he associated the good guys with dark side characteristics.
Yoda said it himself...when he said many Jedi are arrogant and that he failed together with the order.
Also...his words are the words beneath Palps's speech on how the Jedi and the Sith are very similar. Are they not?

 

I see what you mean, but, the PT established a new story to get us to a point 15 years before OT. The ST is starting 30 years later, so there is some license to make bold choices. Every Star Wars film has obvious flaws and every fan is entitled to their opinion. My original post in this thread was meant to remind fans that recency bias will wane over time and what you see as overpowered or comical, might not be what you will see in 10 years. Therefore, I was cautioning those who have decided that their opinion is set in stone and that Disney is doomed would be best to let it all play out.

When ESB came out, many kids didn't like it as much because it was so different from ANH. Even Lucas didn't like what Kershner did, which is ultimately why he took much more control of ROTJ. Yet, its viewed now by the majority of fans as the pinnacle or at least top 2 of all Star Wars films. I take offense when fans claim Disney is destroying SW just as I took offense at those who claimed Lucas "raped" their childhood. For every fan who thinks the ST and Lucasfilm is destroying SW, there is another fan who thought the PT destroyed Star Wars. If you don't like the new films or the old films or the PT films, then that's fine by me. It's your opinion. But to spout hyperbole that Star Wars is being destroyed, when the franchise has never been stronger or more popular is to me a bit unwarranted.

 

Your comment has me a little confused GreyLo. Why would seeing Vader redeemed make you think that Lucas didn't intend the OT to be pure good vs pure evil? When I saw Luke finally redeem his father, I saw the perfect victory of good over evil. I saw a boy who was filled with light finally be able to cleanse the pure darkness from his fathers sould and hold him in his hands as his father repented and came to the light. To me, that was the most grandest view of light overcoming darkness and there was no other way to see it. When ROTJ was made, it was a time when people loved movies about good overcoming evil and there weren't hardly any grey characters that fans loved.

When I saw the PT it was just the same as Lucas didn't want to give us grey good guys but good guys that had flaws that made them blind to what was happening around them. Heroes like Obi Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu ect were by the book heroes that while they indeed had flaws, had nothing to do with the Dark Side. Anakin on the other hand was indeed a grey character yet the PT showed us what happened to him as he paid the price for his flaunting with both sides. The movie still remained a pure example of good vs evil.

I saw the same thing happen in RO as well. Take a look at Cassian Andor as an example. Here we had a character with conflicts who had once been an assasin yet when the time came for him to take out an innocent man, Cassian opted to choose another way to do things as he thought killing said man was wrong. Had Cassian simply opted to kill Jyn's father without even blinking an eye and had he opted to do questionable things just so that the mission was done then I could say that SW was giving us a grey character but for the moment at least I still have to say that both TFA and RO have been movies about pure good against pure evil.

That's one of the things I think many fans love about Rey. She's such a loving, innocent, naive girl that seems to see the good in those around her and hopes for the best in them. She seems (to me at least) as a very pure good character.

 

Here is the thing though, it's been only after a decade or do that man fans have come to appreciate the choices Lucas made. Many of the same arguments that are made about how the ST had bad storytelling and deviated from the SW galaxy we know and love was also made about the PT. But now after 10 years of living in those changes, it's part of the what makes SW. So I didn't address them directly because of that reason. My bet is that in 10 years us fans will have grown used to the changes and will accept them. I HATED midicholorians and the the misuse of Boba and Jango Fett. But I've grown to accept them and move on. I very much am troubled that Snoke could be so powerful that he saw the empire rise and fall and no one knew about him, and I am unsure of whether I like the idea of greying up the Force. I also disliked the use of Vader in RO and thought Saw Gerrera was poorly used and constructed in it. I don't like his Thrawn is being used in Rebels and the idea of other Jedi around just before Luke bothers me as well.

BUT in about 10 years I'll have grown to accept it as what has happened in SW. Abd I'm withholding final judgement and just enjoying the ride as each movie and episode comes out.

There were movies and entire careers built up and destroyed over the PT annhilating all that people knew and loved about SW. But now? Ahmed Vest is loved by fans. Hayden C got standing ovations at SW celebration. Even Ewan McG wants back in. Time healed those wounds for most fans. I'm just asking fans who feel wounded by the ST to remember the past and not let it dictate he future.

 

I have mixed feelings about Disney's STAR WARS. I didn't care for some of the minor changes that Disney had inflicted upon the saga via its recent novels. And I wasn't a fan of "THE FORCE AWAKENS". For me, most of it seem incredibly unoriginal and it reeked with questionable writing. But . . . it did give us John Boyega as Finn. And the movie, along with "ROGUE ONE" featured women in lead roles. As for "ROGUE ONE", I enjoyed it a lot more than the 2015 film. In fact, I have personally ranked it third or fourth out of the current eight movies.

For me . . . it has been a mixed bag so far.

 

yeah disney's sw movies are very divisive. i honestly dont think they have the "charm" of what star wars used to have. I'm glad others are putting their own stamps on it and it's definitely not a bad thing, but they really should be building on the past while looking towards the future at the same time rather than making what appears to be their own version, sort of like what they did with ST but a bit safer.

 

Plain good vs evil means good are good evil is evil.
Your point stand from the point of view of Luke. He isnt compromised ever. He never crosses to the dark. Just touches it for a moment. But not from the point of view of Vader.
Forgiving and redeeming a charachter that was pure blackness and awsome evilness...thats grey area of ot.
In PT...Ani was never grey. He was pure light at the beginnig...then pure dark in the end. In between...he was arrogant and weak. Weak to deal with properly with things he couldn't fix.

Good guys with flaws...that cause innocents to die...how is that pure light? Arrogance is not dark side to you?

R1 Cassian is a grey charachter. Cuz he accepted the fact that wars are dirty and bad sh*it needs to be done. He did bad sh*it and took the blame abd responsibility for it. But he is so disilussioned with his authirity figures who do not do the same. I thought that was pretty clearly shown when he disobeys them. And that whole story. Is not about good triumphing over evil. Its about good guys accepting and allowing the sacrifices of people who are not affraid to do bad sh*it for a good cause then ditching them to die alone.

Rey is pure light? I disagree.
She has anger and hate. And acts upon them. Thise are not flaws. Those are dark side traits.

 

I really don't see eye to eye with your concept of who you think is grey. Both good guys and bad guys are not perfect so they are going to have flaws but that still doesn't make them grey. Luke had tons of flaws as we saw him get angry and frustrated same as we saw Obi Wan be incredibly overconfident and reckless yet that doesn't mean they are flaunting with the Dark Side. Same can be said for evil characters. Maul was vile to the core yet he still cared for his brother Savage, does that mean he's playing with the Light Side? I think not as sometimes evil characters have good qualities just as good characters have bad. Just because a character is evil that doesn't mean we had to see him as a bucket of hate who murders everyone in his path same as a character who is good doesn't have to be a knight in shining armor that will always put his life above all others.

When someone mentions a grey character, I usually think of Bounty Hunters. Now those REALLY are grey characters! You can pay Zuckuss to save your daughter from the Guavian Death Gang and he will do whatever needs to be done to make sure your little girl reaches your hands safely yet a month after that, the Guavians can pay Zuckuss to go toss a thermal detonator into the school bus that your daughter is riding on and he will gladly do it because he really doesn't care for your daughter at all and all that matters to him is the money. Now that's a grey character! He/she/it can be a wonderful hero today just to be the vilest of the vile tomorrow.

Leia was angry when she murdered Jabba, does that mean she was falling to the Dark Side? Not at all and we can say the very same about Luke threatening to kill Jabba or Mace Windu when he was ready to kill Sheev. They are still pure light unlike Anakin who was a vile dweeb even when he pretended to be good. The novel of TPM even makes him look bad as a little kid as he did kick Greedo's butt just because he didn't agree with him. Rey is another character who I see as pure light. Where you saw hate I saw a loving girl trying to desperately save her friend from a villain who had already killed someone she had started to care for. Rey had a very hard and nasty life and of the two people that had just shown her kindness one was already dead and the other was already lying on the floor in front of her badly hurt. What was Rey supposed to do? Be happy while she fought for her life and Finns? I think every character has flaws but being someone grey takes alot more. Take Ahsoka as an example. Lots of people want to claim she is grey yet everything Ahsoka does is pure good and not something grey like Boba Fett, Bossk or Embo would do.

 

Im okay with us not agreeing. But you answered what it means to be grey best:

Grey is....allowing yourself to be both...dark and light...possesing and acknowledging a whole range of qualities that makes us human, good and bad, but not falling to either extreme: neither pretending to be moral high mighty flawless authority that has never done wrong nor falling into complete darkness and going on a killing spree. Being GREY is about knowing thyself well. And not be a slave of either your emmotions nor your holy arrogance even if you do make mistakes and hurt others, which you will, cuz not every choice in life is black and white.

I completely DISAGREE with this. Bounty hunters are scum of the Earth. They put MONEY over PRINCIPLES and PEOPLE. That...is a definition of soulless egocentrical EVIL. Not a trace of the lightnes in such behaviour.

Bobba Fett is scum. He is not grey. In lieu of what you saud here about him and above about that Zuckus dude I think you mistake GREY for SHADY.

Anger is a dark side quality. But can be used to achieve goodness. It depend on how you use it. If you use it too bust your willpower to persevere in doing something bad (like murder is) that will have good consequences (not just for you but for all else too) and you dont give in to it to do more damage than necessary then its constructive. If you fall to it then you fail and fall to darknes. That also happens. But then what you do next is what makes all the difference. Do you own up to your mistakes, readjust your moral compas, take responsibility for what you have done or loose yourself in the anger and mistakes and continue with destructive behaviour.
Leia was angry when she killed Jabba but that had nothing with darkness or greyness. It was justice cuz he was scum.
Same with Sheev...altho I would argue there is a trace of darkness in Windu like his lightsaber suggests (i vaguely remember he was researchjng old teachings that were about using both sides of the force?)
Take OB1 in TPM for one ....he tapped into anger to kill/split Maul which was when he did more an act if revenge for killing his Master than it was about vanquishing evil.
Luke puts others above himself. He is the lightest of all creatures of sw, in ot/pt era at least. There was never a doubt what will Luke do. Until now. I love it what they do with his charachter now, btw.
Ani was a good kid and he was light had principles, followed them untill he succumbed to his emotions. Fears that came true that he couldnt stop that made him feel immpotent. It started from worrying about another (his mom, his wife) but then in RotS it was crystalized that it was all about him. His ARROGANCE and his desire to be most powerfull not just to take care of everything and be everyone's saviour but because it was important to him that HE is that saviour. Once he tasted the piwer of the darkside there was only I, I, I on his mind.

Rey is not pure light. If she were then she would only defend herself and not be agressive or feral. Nor seeking revenge. And yes...the motives behind the anger or hate are so very much important. But they still dont change the fact that anger and hate are darkside qualities. Not even if you use them to save others or revenge friends.
I dunno much about Ahsoka. But her line Im no Jedi tells me she is at least in touch with her emotions. All of them and doesnt pretend that she has no bad ones. Its human. All of us have it. Even you. But most of us are too much of hypocrites to ever own up to it cuz of our arrogance.

Think about what I said. I really think you confuse what it means to be GREY with SHADY. Or perhaps my definition of grey is faulty. Still....think about it .

 

Fair enough. I think a lot of others share your feelings at the moment.

Most of my thoughts to the contrary have already been mentioned on the thread (eg we've only seen one ST film so far and it's most universal criticism was it was too much like previous Lucas' movies!!) but I think I know what you're meaning.

A few others points to consider...

• Even if the plan was a perfect balance of the old and the new it's probably a tough ask to get a great director on board who's willing to acquiesce to a previous auteur's vision.

• Art's always a gamble - even for Hollywood studios with deep pockets, large crews, focus groups and test screenings. There's bound to be some hit and miss.

• Sometimes there's an inverse relationship between aging and the enjoyment of newer versions of beloved fantasy worlds.

 

Frankly, I've not been following developments regarding TLJ but one of the things I never liked in Star Trek (opposite to Star Wars and Babylon 5) was the "alien of the week" and I strongly believe that "less is more".

I'm rather interested to examine and learn about a few species I see repeatedly showing up but with all these new aliens it rather looks to me that Star Wars has reached that kind of Star Trek inflationary repetition for lack of a better word.

If at least some classic OT aliens would show up in this menagerie I could perhaps bring myself to believe I'm still in the Star Wars Universe, but - as you so eloquently put it - it rather looks to me like "Phantom of the Opera meets Labyrinth", too.

 

Don't worry good friend, I don't think this is about you being wrong or me being wrong. I think it has more to do with looking at things from a certain point of view and I think that's clearly seen by both our points of view which I think are both right. While I wrote down my views, I find some very interesting and valid points in yours as well and that's what led me to think that we are both right in the way we see things and it would all depend on the point of view of the people involved.

When I look at your comment about Leia being justified by killing Jabba because he was scum, it makes me think how the other side would see it. Guys like Luke, Han, Lando, you and me see things this way as we are seeing things through the personal view of the good guys yet let's look at how a Hutt and certain other races would see it. Jabba gave Han work and favored him greatly. Jabba personally talked to Han about the money he owed him and he did so in a friendly manner. He didn't take it personally that Han had just killed one of his other employees and was even willing to give Han more time to get his act together and pay him. Han screws this up and is captured and frozen. Hutts everywhere would see this as something just and fair. Jabba is in his house minding his own business and suddenly this chick comes out of nowhere pretending to be a hunter and mocks Jabba's hospitality by trying to rob him. Not only that but this guy now appears out of the blue threatening Jabba and trying to kill him. Both the guy and the girl had just wronged Jabba without just provocation as he had never even dealt with them before and had never wronged them personally. Jabba takes action and makes the girl a slave and is going to execute these guys and then one of the dudes tells Jabba that if he doesn't free them he would get killed.

Both these guys and the girl had already wronged Jabba so to many, everything he was doing would be justified. Then as they are trying to escape, the girl murders Jabba and they fly away stealing the droids that had been given to Jabba as a gift of good will. Not only do they kill Jabba but they make sure that they take out his ship which apart from scum, had innocent cooks, mechanics, servants and music players on board most of all who died without even knowing why. If we look at things from that point of view we would have to justify Jabba and not our heroes. Just like you and me, it would have to depend on which side is seeing things.

Same goes with your comment about Fett. While it's true that you don't see Fett as nothing but Pure evil, many characters that have had Fett do good things for them would think otherwise. It's like the episode of the CW were Asajj Ventress saved Pluma Sodi from Otua Blank. Ventress is a murderer who is vile and nasty and hated by many yet how would she look in the eyes of Pluma? Ventress was so nasty that she even handed Boba over to that foul pedobird not even caring if he had his way with poor Fett but in the eyes of Pluma she must have seemed as a wonderful woman who's change of heart saved her from a incredibly icky fate. Is Pluma wrong for seeing Ventress as someone good who saved her life or is Boba Fett wrong for seeing her as a vile betrayer who had wronged him? So what is she? Good? Evil? Grey? I think that depends on everyones point of view and it's a little hard for some people to really pinpoint if someone is truly evil or good to the core unless they go full out blowing up planets and enslaving people like Sheev. When we see things that way it even makes us wonder if someone like Hux is worst than Kylo. Here we have a guy who murdered his father and his uncles students vs a guy that happily ordered the decimation of billions of lives without even caring.

 

Wow.
Exactly.
Shades of grey and points of view...
I never even considered the innocents that died on jabba's aircraft..slaves he captured, for one that were not there willingly....and damn...Luke did them in??

You have given me a lot to think about. And your knowledge of the sw content beyond the movies seems great indeed cuz it gives you insight i lack
So once again...wow
Nice talking to you, my dear friend

 

For me, that is the problem with Rey and that is why I do not find her that interesting. I hope that Rian Johnson had injected some ambiguity into the character for "The Last Jedi".

 

Try this:

Go get and stack up your original copies on VHS/DVD/Blurays of all 7 Main Saga and 1 Rogue One in their cases. Have a good long last look at them.

Next, you HAVE to destroy or give away TWO of them and you must NEVER buy or watch them again. Which two?

TFA. Gone!

RO. Gone!