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The Rise of Skywalker's Biggest Sin

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    Semantics. Again. You're just saying the same thing over and over and re-wording it.

    No movie or TV show HAS TO end in a way that it "feels like" it can move on. It's a fundamentally flawed - and downright incorrect - statement. You can't criticize a movie for not "feeling like" it can "move on". It has no merit whatsoever. The point of a story is not to make you feel like there's more to come. You watch - and hopefully enjoy - what is in front of you here in the present. If you come out of a movie saying, "I don't feel like there's more story to come" you're doing it wrong.

    Not to mention, you're not even following your own (incorrect) rules. Rey's ending in the trilogy is exactly like Luke's. It's very obvious she's beginning her life just now and heavily implied that will involve training Jedi; like Finn.
     
    #21 kuatorises, May 1, 2020
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  2. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    It has a future. Rey carries the Sith inside her. Palpatine don’t go to the bathroom without a plan and he told Rey what would happen if she struck him down and she did. Palpatine and the thousand years of Sith are in Rey, she just don’t know it yet.

    That was the Sith plan all along. Now they also have the powers of generations of Jedi once the Dark Side awakens in Rey. Rey is the balance but things don’t remain balanced.

    The Sith and the Jedi got what they wanted but the Force cannot stay in balance.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    He struck himself down though, yeah?

    Rey: Why you shootin’ yourself? Why you shootin’ yourself? Why you shootin’ yourself?
    Palps: MOM!!!
     
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  4. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Because it seems like you weren't understanding what I was saying until your latest post.

    Rey is the one example I gave of them doing it RIGHT. Jannah is another arguable point. My problem was that it wasn't for any other character or the world at large. The Jedi come back? Great, we never saw it happen the first time. Jannah and Lando have an adventure? Great, this makes no sense if you don't already know they're related. Which makes even LESS sense because Lando can come out and say "Hey I know where you're from!"*

    What about Finn? What about Poe? What about the state of the galaxy? I don't need answers for ALL of them in the ending, but I need a clarity of what will happen to them. A hug isn't an ending for a character unless all they wanted was either to feel safe or explicitly a hug.

    **
    Granted that'd make a terrible story, but if Jannah's journey was one of self discovery, then it makes little sense for Lando to NOT tell her. Unless he doesn't know. Which it kinda feels like he knows.

    Actually, it's not. How do you know that the lesson she took from Luke and the PT era Jedi before that was to NOT start up a school? How do you know she won't encourage Force Sensitive people to follow their own path, not hers? How do you know that she WON'T say "I am all of the Jedi; I am enough."

    Will Rey restart the Jedi Order? Yup. We both agree that this will happen. But that's not the only route she could go and the only proof of it happening is in Luke's path. Rey's not following Luke's path anymore.

    Star Wars isn't just a story. It's a storming franchise. OF COURSE they should want to tease out the "next" thing. For them to NOT follow that formula is a problem.

    Take the ending of The Dark Knight Rises. The story ended. Bruce Wayne's story was told. We saw how his story affects those close to him in their own personal spheres of influence if you will. And even still we saw hints of how the world changed beyond his story, and SEPARATELY, what could be next, even if (read: especially since) we never see it.

    Now compare that to TROS. The story ended, Rey Skywalker's story has been told (or rather, the story of how Rey became a Skywalker). We...don't see how any of the people close to her - MAIN CHARACTERS IN THEIR OWN RIGHTS move on once the threat is defeated. We don't see hints of how the world changed beyond her story or what could be next, even if (read: especially since) we're definitely going to see it.

    *Granted, The Mandalorian and TCW are the best Star Wars material around and have been for a long while, but to keep looking to the OT or PT for solutions is still a problem. A franchise that keeps digging up past material will eventually dig itself into a grave.

    I only do that for endings. Which TROS is. Endings provide the chance to wrap up the story and move the world forward. Do we see anything move forward beyond Jannah and Rey - WHICH IS THE CRUX OF THE POINT? No, we don't.



    Ha! So I am, so I am. I'm just trying to give Lucasfilm the benefit of the doubt and work through how THEY might want to approach things. If I were them, a "Rey training Jedi" show is too good to pass up. Heck, I theorized that it would be Lucasfilm's next cartoon before even Resistance was announced (clearly that was wrong, but I still think it can and probably will happen).

    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/ezra-ahsoka-and-a-new-cartoon.53696/

    But if Lucasfilm has any read on the fandom - which they're too large and cognizant at this point not to - then they know that Luke's "Jedi Academy" is a popular idea. Just look at the Sebastian Stan fan casting! So, you have two popular ideas, but you're worried that they'd cover similar topics in tone and scope...what do you do? Do you choose one and risk the ire of the fans? Do you choose both, but risk repeating the same types of stories and being criticized as repetitive again (which, like it or not, Star Wars already has that stigma)? Or do you combine them?

    Lucasfilm has people smarter than me on the job to figure this stuff out (or if my theory turns out to be correct, how to implement it in a way that makes Luke and Rey very competent and skilled without sacrificing the other character); I'm just trying to predict their next move with the skill I currently have.


    Again, I don't think Rey's journey is a dead end. I just don't think it's enough for the world, the other characters involved in the trilogy, or the franchise as a whole moving forward.

    To draw a parallel to the MCU (I know I shouldn't; they're different franchises doing different things and telling different stories):

    Iron Man may have been the face of the MCU, but after a certain point Captain America became just as important. And then the Guardians of the Galaxy became just as important, and then Spider-Man, and then Thor, and then Black Panther and Captain Marvel. And now people are looking past Iron Man and can still get excited for new stuff coming up.


    I want a Star Wars future where fans can say "I'm not sure I'll check out Poe's next adventure because I'm not a fan of the New New Repbulic, but I'm super excited for Rey's!" or "I can't wait to watch Finn's show about the Whills and then right after binge Rose's show!" I want a Star Wars future where Disney and Lucasfilm don't feel like they're repeatedly backed into a corner and have to look to the past for a way out; where they can announce projects in advance and have them come to fruition with little controversy.

    Rey may seem like enough now, but she's going to need backup to carry this franchise forward, and the movie didn't provide nearly enough.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2020, Original Post Date: May 2, 2020 ---
    I like this theory! Dark Side Empress Rey for episode X?

    (sorry about the double post. I forgot to add this quote into the previous one).
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    From what I can tell, the rationale at team Star Wars is that they just ended a trilogy of trilogies. Anything past this point right now would diminish the weight of that significance. They’ll let it cool off, put their focus and attention in a different place, and then get back to it later. They aren’t going to foster anticipation for projects that aren’t coming. That’s not their aim right now. There’s no Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose, etc. shows in the works. There’s nothing for them to tease. There’s nothing to set up - by design.

    TROS ends with our hero literally walking off toward a new dawn. You get to imagine what happens next based on what came before. That’s a gift, not a curse - a virtue, not a sin.
    I couldn’t care less about comically oversized slates that map out the next decade of content to gin up their customer base. I couldn’t care less about tumultuous productions or what new travesty has the fandom ruffled about this week. How about they focus on one thing at a time? Make that one thing the best thing it can possibly be, and then see what grows organically from there? No one has been backed into any corners so far.
     
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  6. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    I agree that TRoS is worthless but it's biggest sin is being in existence, by which it ruins not only the main point of the prequels and characters of the OT, but it also manages to ruin the films in its own trilogy. Hahaha it's so ridiculous and ridiculously sad.

    I wish the ST was never made. Honestly, as a SW fan since 1982.

    On topic;
    TRoS does a great job at setting up the future for the franchi--- no wait Disney have already canceled anything post-TRoS.

    (With the excuse that the "story is done".)

    Oh why oh why couldn't they just let Kylo be an evil Supreme Leader, or better, Rey turned dark and Ben returned to light. Setting up for more. Nope. Kill all classic heroes, give Chewie a medal done. Wooooooooohoooo
     
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  7. blame182

    blame182 Rebelscum

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    TROS doesn't ruin Star Wars...
    [​IMG]
    ...people like you do
     
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  8. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Because Star Wars is a franchise, and that's not how stories in franchises work. Things should develop organically, yes, and stories that come out of said development should be seen. But those can't be the only source of income or entertainment.

    And even if Star Wars was to make one thing at a time, that doesn't discount where and how the story should have ended, and the lack of resolution it provided for a majority of the main cast.

    Agreed, but alas.

    I think this a problem statement. I think we should be saying "I wish the ST was made better." Because there are great moments and characters and themes and emotions in the ST, but the over-arching story is fractured. It could be better, and to demand better from something we've seen deliver better isn't "unfair," it's being responsible. Comparing it to another company's best is where problems can bloom for fans, if not established correctly. Besides, this thread was to discuss the lack of "and the stories continue" in TROS, not to hate on the ST as a whole.
     
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  9. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    I see where you're coming from but I feel the DT is so unredeemable it would be better with nothing.
    The story isn't just fractured - it is bonkers, broken and bent. TRoS's flaws begin already in its opening crawl and from there on its one scene after the other not making sense or just badly done.

    The return of Palpatine is relegated to a few sentences in the crawl; only later do we discover the amazing backstory to this event: *Somehow, Palpatine has returned*. It's the ultimate example of horrendous writing. The casting is stellar but the characters are even weaker than they already were. Plot holes from start to finish. It's worse than all three PT movies combined (and I say this as someone who was utterly crushed by that trilogy .. but the one good thing coming out of this mess is that I appreciate the PT a lot more.)
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    They do. I guess for you, is that their biggest sin?

    And while I understand, I will have to respectfully disagree. I love that we were introduced to Finn, Rey, Poe, and Jannah. I liked TLJ Luke and Yoda. Yet at the same time, I understand that we have to take the good with the bad, and if where most of the characters ended was so disheartening for not only the fans, but the actors, was the journey worth that destination? I guess I can't say right now, but maybe if Lucasfilm learns to be better, to do better, then it might be.

    And I agree with a lot of this. But with the PT, we had the chance to move beyond it once the ST came about. Prequel Apologists were still fighting an uphill battle long after TCW's original run ended. We were fighting until they released The Force Awakens, and only THEN did Prequel Memes come about and help lift us from the ashes. And then TCW was discovered, and the PT was vindicated in the eyes of pop culture.

    I think the same can, should, and hopefully will be the same with the ST, but we need time and something to look forward to, in both senses of the meaning. As cool as the High Republic sounds, no matter how canon runs, we will inevitably, inexorably, run into the TROS. Having something afterwards to guide us forward would be very motivating.
     
  11. Bligh

    Bligh Rebel Official

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    I love this message. Some of my favourite moments in Star Wars come from the ST. I always remember Rian Johnson being quite heavily involved in making a few tweaks to TFA.. but that never happened with JJ to Rian in the production of TLJ. I can't helped that the incoherent ST comes down to these three points...
    - No planned story. If there was one, it was thrown out the window
    - Rushed schedule. TROS was behind schedule in terms of pre-production. They effectively had to rewrite Trevorrow's EpIX treatment
    - TROS was cut and chopped around so much that it came across as a rushed mess

    There's obviously more variables, and reasons, but these stand out to me. :)


    In regards to the original post? Personally, I don't really agree. It's all down to perception and opinion, but I concur with one of the former comments on here... there's enough done at the end of TROS to capture my imagination of what the gang all go on to do - if I can imagine it, I'm sure other writers and creatives can (possibly not JJ/Terrio ;)).

    Lastly, in regards to the void between EpVI - EpVII, we've got The Mandalorian, and other content coming. I feel like these bits of canon will be addressing some plots in the ST, slowly. They don't need to rush.

    This is the Way.
     
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  12. delph

    delph Clone Commander

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    TROS gives an open end and it is not that bad. I mean, we see Tatooine where everything had started and maybe in the next movie or tv series we see Rey training new jedi. It is not tha bad, I would appreciate this kind of movie.
    The biggest sin for me is how the Force is used. I mean, Kylo is able to take Rey's necklace to discover where she is and then even to resuscitate her at the end of the movie. Rey on the other side heals Kylo after their battle. I have neve seen such a thing in another movie as far as I remember. The Force can heal? The Force can take items from another world?
     
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  13. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    The healing thing did not piss me off at all because I had to push through those stupid legacy comics. I didn’t WANT to read those things, so I just used Wookieepedia and read the whole summary. Anyway, in the legacy comics, there is Cade Skywalker, a descendant of Luke, who has this special force power called dark transfer. It is like shatter point, because if you have a scar, Cade can open in it. For example, if a loth cat scratched your face, then Cade could kill you by using your scar to explode your head. The bad part is that he could heal people this way too, with no repercussions. If he blew you up, he could put you back together. Several of his friends died in that series, and resurrected them all. And then, Darth Krayt learned the skill, and he found out how to use dark transfer to resurrect himself after he was dead. WHAAA? AHHHHHH. Anyway, people liked those comics, and at least in ROS, they died once they healed someone. If it was using dark transfer, then palpatine would lightning everything and then Rey would die and Kylo would resurrect her, but he wouldn’t die and then they would go around healing EVERY SINGLE PERSON who died from the lightning.

    So no, the healing didn’t really bother me.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2020 ---
    Also the force bond they had was cool in my eyes. It wasn’t THAT powerful, and it was unique.
    THE ONLY GOOD THING ABOUT THOSE STUPID COMICS WERE THE IMPERIAL KNIGHTS! 6C1D3832-E25C-463D-9CFE-B06D72E0AC66.jpeg
     
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  14. Philo

    Philo Clone Trooper

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    The biggest sin of TROS for me, just the same as the biggest sin of the ST in general: not being planned out.

    No future perspective after TROS: I disagree. Some arguments have been given above. It might seem a minor thing but to me THE future promise was Rey's yellow lightsabre (at last we have a yellow one on screen and not only in videogames). I would like to see the yellow lightsabre swinging many times in the future.

    Indeed, we haven't seen anything of a new government post-Final Order. Maybe for the better. I like that political question to remain open. What kind of government would we prefer in the future? The same kind of Senate that we saw being destroyed in the PT, the one full of greedy hypocrits and bureaucrats?
    Or the one that was unable to act against the First Order and therefore destroyed in TFA? Maybe a New Republic could only work if the people of the Galaxy have the same sense of common importance they had while fighting the Final Order at Exegol. I liked the contrast between the rigidly outlined Star Destroyer Fleet and the diverse, Multi-colored fleet of starships flown by common people. So the question remains: will the people remain united and work for a better world/Galaxy or
    will they go back to greediness and personal ambition once the threat has been countered? Some similarities to real life maybe...

    These days loose ties and future perspective are a common threat in franchises. Decades ago, episodes from television series tended to be more closed. Nowadays you can easily get addicted to bingewatching netflix series. And I'm afraid stories have become open ended mostly because of money making motives. Off course, I'm not naive, Disney bought Lucasfilm and Star Wars for the same money milking reason. Capitalism can downgrade the quality of movies and series, certainly when things are rushed. But without capitalism not any Star Wars movie would have been made, no ST, but also no PT, even no OT.
     
  15. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    Besides, until Disney makes an Old Republic movie, we still have a lot story.
     
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  16. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Agreed!
     
  17. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash
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    I actually appreciate the fact that the SW franchise isn't being treated like the MCU with lightsabers. The intent with TROS was to conclude the Skywalker saga, and while we can debate all day as to how good a movie it was or wasn't, it did wrap those stories up. In that respect, I don't think it would have been appropriate for it to blatantly set up a whole bunch of new stories the way a Marvel movie might.

    To me, the biggest problem with TROS was that it felt too rushed. And really, that was in the cards the second Carrie died. I think we all knew that LucasMouse wasn't going to delay release long enough to start preproduction from square one and allow a reasonable amount of time for the team to land on and develop a new story.

    The result speaks for itself. While I personally have come to like TROS for what it is, the whole thing seems undercooked and overseasoned. And given the mad dash in which it was written, filmed and edited, how could it have turned out any other way?
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Meh.
    That's entirely subject to one's intentions.
    So far as I've seen, Disney wanted a nail in the coffin for this Saga, and didn't want any lead out from it what so ever.
    They repeatedly talked of it being done, fin, final, no more.
    And I mean the world as well. They never really talk about the future of this world much at the moment.

    But while spinning this saga down, they also started spinning other projects up to see what would work to capture interest going forward.
    At the moment, I believe they're in an experimental phase where they are testing multiple avenues to see how they want to go forward.

    This is similar to the first round of Marvel movies before they kind of just hit a soft-reset and went for the big meta-narrative plan they came up with after the false starts.

    Lessons learned, they don't seem to need to hit reset this time around with Star Wars. They just explore, and if it doesn't go anywhere, they just kind of let it close and move on.
    A part of the reason for this liberty is that Star Wars isn't as character-locked as Marvel stories. Characters are important in Star Wars - absolutely important. But it's not like Marvel where each character is basically some recurring pokemon card.
    You have freedom to make up new characters that fit a story, rather than making stories to fit characters that have been around for decades and decades.

    Now, currently, they're doing a bit of both. They're playing the pokemon card game with known characters getting attention with fill-in stories, and they're spinning up new characters to explore new stories.

    Leaving a world tip that indicates we'll see more of this Saga's immediate consequence kind of flies off from that safety net idea of opening the creative sandbox to whatever.

    They're going back far more than we see them going forward right now because there seems to be a solid interest in the golden era of Star Wars that's never heavily been visited, and only really marginally mentioned here and there in the films.
    And this actually fits with a lot of Lucas' own development material as he was spinning up a ton of material generation for a sort of Film Noir Star Wars detective story series in and around the Prequel era, rather than collecting and generating a bunch of material looking into going beyond the final trilogy.

    It's a world of cranking the Flash Gordon aspects up to 11.
    Personally, I don't really care what they do. I'll probably check it out as long as it's not some CW melodrama bantha poodoo like what happened to Star Trek over the years.

    Biggest sin?
    Meh.
    One sin is the same thing I really love about it - its pacing.
    I actually love that so many people have a hard time with its pacing. I enjoy that it's breakneck rocket speeding through the narrative and not waiting for you to get your emotional boots on. Catch up or too bad. It's kind of punk, and it reminds me of ANH back in the day, and I enjoy that.
    It makes me smile.

    Other than that...hmmmm... probably I would say the actual "sin" is that it's mechanical and clunky. It's somewhat the opposite of TLJ. TLJ is smooth and flowing, even if folks don't like the story, the flow of the film is pretty smooth.
    TFA isn't. It's smoother than TROS, but it's still like a roller coaster and how it feels when it makes a turn; you get that ragged toss a bit.

    TROS, on the other hand, is like watching an assembly line manufacture a story.
    Because...well...that's more or less what happened and how it was approached, so it really feels that way.
    To me, that is just part of its vibe. It's cold and mechanical in how it moves through the story, or why it does what it does.
    If ESB is a renaissance painting in its narrative flow, then TROS is a Lego brick creation.

    I still love the hell out of this film, but there's no getting around that clunky motion it has that really feels like we're walking through a count of scenes.
    Ah well, can't really nail everything, and they really did nail quite a lot with what they had to do.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #38 Jayson, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  19. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel General

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    ROTJ had a definite ending. It wrapped up the Anakin Skywalker life history and concluded with the New Republic taking shape (Mon Mothma, etc.)
    TROS had nothing. No government. No central rule. Not even the guarantee that Palpatine is truly gone. The only thing we have going is one Jedi. I hate to see what a government will look like with Poe Dameron leading it.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Politics was always very background in the ST.
    It's hardly of focus this time around.

    TROS doesn't end in a way of telling how everything should be, or will go.
    It ends on uncertainty and a future unwritten and open in terms of how the free world will move forward, and instead focuses on the two tangents of the trilogy: 1) Rey's journey to self discovery 2) The hope of an enthused society willing to try for good.

    At the onset, Rey didn't have much of a self-identity and society really turned its back on being active in trying to get involved.

    In the second film, Rey learns to stand on her own in an absence of predefined identity she craved, and society has not only shown itself to be indifferent to causes, but has abandoned the endeavor of good.

    And finally, in TROS, again, Rey finds her identity through facing her predefined identity and fighting it, while society finally decides to come around when they hear Palps' galactic threat and see a legacy of hope calling all to action.

    What they do next, what we do next, in a world reawakened to trying to do good is left open.

    Will they screw up? Will we screw up? Will you?

    That's up to us. Up to you.

    Political answers were never the focus of the ST.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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