There is a genuine backlash building against The Last Jedi

I am most curious to see how this movie does during its second weekend. Even beyond the polarization and divisiveness that it has caused, as The Force Awakens was Star Wars coming back after ten years. And since then we already had a SWs movie beforehand in RO.

The situation of this movie kind of reminds me of the anti-ESB. That is a majority of critics loved in and there appears to be a split in the fans. Though, given I wasn't born back then( If only I could time travel); I would be curious to get an understanding of the fan reception of ESB back then. The evidence presented here, I'm not sure what to believe.

On one hand, the pushback from The Last Jedi I have noticed quite a bit. Beyond just film pundits, I have seen even mainstream people, like Pewdiepie have a pushback on this movie. Not that this single view is the gospel. But rather, I just find it fascinating. And before anyone strawman me, I liked the film. I need to see it again, but I found it good but not great.

And I have no cart in this horse. Especially, given how my expectations for this movie were elevated, but modest. Namely, with how The Force Awakens disappointed me.

To use an anecdotal, my friend who is a casual SWs fan went to see the movie this week. He had heard about the mixed reception. He ended up loving it. Now, to be fair; I only spoke to him upon him leaving the theater. And really, views on films, can be a bit skewed given the immediate hype of exiting out of the theater. And may or may not change upon contemplation.

Either way, I do think that this movie will do fine at the box office in spite of its divisiveness. My question is how this movie will be looked on many years from now. For really, I do think there are some genuinely good things about this movie. I question why they are in a Saga film, like this. But really, I'm not about to discount them.

 

The one who is assuming things is you, i didn't even talk about that dude of the facebook xD I have only made simple comments about several observations I have seen in rotten tomatoes, in addition to the recent trend that has occurred in metacritic, and the answer about RT is only corporate logic when a situation happens or scandal (whether true or false) of not openly accepting the responsibility, since it could damage their image, even governments do this, it is nothing out of the ordinary

 

The reason the fans are arguing is 1/2 feel it’s great and the other 1/2 feel it’s abysmal. That’s not good cause it doesn’t leave room for reevaluating.

I remember seeing Pulp Fiction for the first time and it was fresh and original but couldn’t decide if how I felt. I went back again and loved it but I never hated it, just was undecided.

I absolutely hate TLJ as there are so many things wrong I don’t know where to begin. This isn’t Pulp Fiction where the different expectations of the movie made me undecided yet curious to see it again. I have no desire to see this ever again, and I saw TFA 4 times in the theater.

Even if ever I choose to see it again, I’m not going from hate to love? I may accept certain things and maybe tolerate the movie but you can’t change that feeling you have.

I never hated the PT movies, they were just frustrating cause there were good parts and bad parts and they just ended up being an uneven Trilogy. This movie is just bad, and not much good that will get me to see it again.

So I think it’s bad that we’re split 50/50. I’d rather be 80/20 with TFA where the majority of fans enjoyed it.

 

Oh no, a bunch of neckbeards didn't get their predictable fan service movie. Quick! Make another Rogue One. Let's bring out Darth Vader to slash through some more Rebels so they can clap their hands and be happy. Enough with the haters. Let them be miserable. I'll just be happy with this new amazing chapter in the Star Wars saga and enjoy it for the rest of my life and be glad I'm not as cynical as they are.

 

As someone who was around for ESB, @BaranDo91, I seem to remember that there was a bit of consternation and puzzlement. I myself have never been a huge fan of it, primarily because the trio of Luke, Leia and Han were separated for the majority of the movie, a situation that improved somewhat in ROTJ. In fact, I was VERY surprised to find that it was the fan favorite when I got re-involved with fandom in 2015.

ESB gradually acquired its elevated status over a number of years, partially because GL was ahead of his time in terms of its "dark" content. It has a more modern sensibility than the first movie. Initially, some people didn't like that. If you look at the box office take, that was really noticeable. But then, as time (years) went by, people started to appreciate it, were able to process it and now it tends to top most lists when the movies are ranked.

Maybe it will be the same for TLJ. But, I think it took the postmodern antihero theme too far. It's okay to do that, in fact it's probably necessary- just try making ANH today. People would laugh at it! However, that change shouldn't have been attempted with Luke, who never had a hint of becoming an antihero but has always been just a straight-up hero in an old-fashioned way.

 

My personal explanation for the divide between fans and critics is relatively simple. Critics tend to rate a movie as a standalone product. They care about the 2,5 hours of TLJ and how well it's edited, how good the acting is, if there are unexpected turns and so on and so forth. The Star Wars fan however looks at TLJ in context with the rest of the saga. Let me show you what I mean in form of an example.



A critic will say: Beautiful shot, nice effects. Like it.
A fan will say: how the f'ck does she pull off the most impressive display of telekinesis in the entire canon after only a couple fo weeks of training.

My point is that TLJ is a pretty good standalone movie but it is a meh setup for IX due to the lack of a real buildup ( there's no X that needs to be found/destroyed/killed) and as a sequel to TFA it feels utterly disjointed at times. Critrics and fans simply focus on two different things.

 

In my experience, most great works of art are often difficult to accept/understand/enjoy upon initial viewing. "Cult" films and many classics are often loathed or fail financially upon initial release because of this phenomenon (see The Big Lebowski, Blade Runner, The Thing, etc). I believe the same will hold true for TLJ as it has improved substantially with each viewing. TLJ is NOT TPM or AOTC. It is not riddled with painful acting or horrendous dialog. It is a finely crafted film that caught people off-guard. Once the shock subsides a quality movie will remain when the smoke clears.

I understand the disappointment some feel as I felt it too after my first viewing. But that disappointment was a by-product of my own personal expectations. Once I grew acclimated to Rian Johnson's vision I realized his version is far superior to the generic cliche I had fabricated in my mind.

The Last Jedi is a great film that will age like fine wine. If anything, JJ Abrams is the "weak" link here (if anyone). Hopefully he's up to task to bring it all home for episode 9.

 

Critics usually focus like you said in the film as it is, is well filmed? is visually beautifull?, the plot work for me or makes sense?, did the actors performed well? but fans judge the movie in how it should be or how they wish that should be and usually go into the nitpick ( a lot) or scrutiny and review every single detail of the movie

 

Neckbeards? Really? Why are you so offended some people don't like the movie?

 

ESB was different because many didn’t understand the Trilogy structure in 1980 and we’re mad that it ended with essentially no ending. My older brother (who was 12 years old) felt that way until ROTJ came out and the 3 story structure made sense.

I was younger (8 years old) then him in 1980 so I just was too young for the dark tones of the movie, but as I got older I could understand the themes.

TLJ is being panned for different reasons as it’s just not one thing like not having an ending like 1980 ESB or being too young, people are making lists of the endless problems. So that is the difference is that nobody said ESB was a turkey in 1980 because if it was then the whole franchise would have collapsed and ROTJ never gets made. There were younger fans like me who were just too young to get it and other fans bummed on the cliffhanger ending. TLJ has a segment that flat out don’t like it, as the word hate is used. That was never the case with ESB.

 

We will see in 18 years I guess

 

I agree. People were really confused, or disturbed about ESB. No one said they hated it, but remember the standards back then were vastly lower than they are now. I was just happy to have a cool girl main character who didn't need rescuing every ten seconds, and now they are literally everywhere.

 

Not offended. Just baffled. There are valid criticisms with this movie, as with any movie. But the hate is so ridiculous and petty. So incredibly lame. These people are mad because the movie was different than the one they already created in their heads. They have no willingness for change. Even after most of them were complaining for 2 years about TFA being a rehash.

 

I read that one of the complains of ESB was the change of tone of the movie ( comparing it with a new hope) and that the movie has not a real ending

 

Take it easy, the hate is directed against the movie, not against you. If you liked the movie then you should be happy.

 

I'll keep it simple. I hated the movie. Luke Skywalker was my favorite character. I don't think people will get it until they imagine episode 10 set 30 years later w/ a hermit Rey who becomes a failure and abandons her friends and family and runs and hides. I'm sure people invested in the character of Rey will love that.

 

I think the biggest problem is that it threw away all the storylines preceding it to start over. It was an excellent film in terms of themes, direction, acting, cinematography, etc., but it basically treated TFA like it hardly mattered, and threw away the Star Wars Campbellian approach to narrative and story arc. In some ways that needed to go eventually, but this was probably the wrong point in a multi-film epic to completely tear down the old, so to speak. It makes the trilogies narratively incoherent and story development suffered tremendously for it. Moreover RJ took a decidedly self-conscious approach to the script, with way too much playing off the audience. Deadpool, Spiderman etc. employ this brand of ironic, self-awareness to great effect, it doesn't work in the mainline Star Wars films which have a classical story telling structure with a firm fourth wall. Some of the pushback is about expectations, but some of it is about good storytelling in the context of the trilogy of trilogies.

Snoke is the ideal example of this. Snoke was created in TFA as a mysterious figure that propelled the entire plot of TFA. He was responsible for turning Kylo Ren, organizing the first order, destroying Luke's Jedi academy through corruption of Kylo, and was a clear and imminent threat to the fledgling republic. He was the sole reason for the new trilogy to exist. In traditional stories a figure like this would be the final obstacle for the protagonist, and his motives, intentions, and plans would be revealed over the course of the story. In TLJ Snoke is killed before we know virtually anything about him other than his impact in order to a) subvert audience expectations and b) to further the development of Kylo Ren. In this case he is simply a plot device, not a character. If this is the intended use for the character, then building mystery is just a way to toy with the audience, not a meaningful element in the story. Any number of other approaches could have been employed to demonstrate the growth of Kylo into a full fledged antagonist. Instead the story reads as JJ and George had their ideas, and Rian didn't like them, so he threw them out where he wanted to, and made a statement movie that was largely disconnected from anything that came before it.

In many ways it is a commentary on the limitations of the perspective that Star Wars has taken since its inception. That's interesting, but really jarring, and I think intentionally ruins the narrative arc of the overall saga. In many ways RJ is tapping into important questions totally ignored by Star Wars, such as what is the role of the social system vs. individuals in the GFFA? But he does so in a manner that negates everything before. That is what rubs some fans the wrong way. It's a great movie in many ways, but perhaps not the right context or the right time to employ it.

 

Yeah I thought it was crap.

‘ let the past die’

Not the message we got in TFA. Obviously something happened to change Kathleen’s mind about the future direction of the franchise.

 

If TFA and TLJ were side stories and had no connection to the Original Trilogy characters I'd probably consider them to be mediocre. I hope I helped make your point. My main complaint is these are reboots not sequels, which is fine. But to destroy the original characters ruined the movies completely.

 

Are you by any chance a writer or journalist or professional critic? Because you did a fantastic job describing how I feel about the buildup of the trilogy in terms of plot development but in a much clearer way than I possibly could have (at least not in english). It was a really fantastic read. If you don't mind I might copy parts of this text every now and then when discussing TLJ in other forums and message boards. Again, thank you for your spot on observation.