There is a genuine backlash building against The Last Jedi

Not a professional in those domains, but I do a fair bit of writing professionally. Thanks for the compliment! Feel free to copy and paste whatever you like. BTW, I think the arc could be rescued in Ep. IX, but it's a treacherous climb.

 

lmao what is this coating everyone with the same brush? you're soo mature and morally superior!!

in all seriousness, people are allowed to be disappointed and people can be satisfied with it. the problem is people like you and the other side of that coin (everyone who likes it must be all 'neckbeards' and oh so cynical).

i really didnt like it, i can see why people did like it though... i do believe the OP is right, however. the PT suffered the same thing - a genuine backlash upon their release. especially after TPM and ATOC. people even still after ROTS. i would say TFA didnt suffer the same thing, but had genuine detractors, rather than a genuine 'backlash' which implies theres a large size of the same group. i liked the OT and the PT, even though i think ATOC and now TLJ are at the bottom of the barrel for SW.

 

So you wanted a perfect, flawless superhero Luke? A guy who essentially hasn't changed at all in 30 years? A guy who wasn't at all affected by the killing of his students at the hand of his nephew? Sorry, to me that's just not interesting, nor is it relatable or realistic. Luke is not a perfect figure, he has failed and succeeded throughout his life. He's a human being, not a superhuman. People change over the course of their lives based on the experiences and circumstances they go through. And getting a 60 year old version of Return of the Jedi Luke would be the safe and predictable outcome, but vastly less interesting and relatable than the one we got in TLJ.

 

I truly hope you're right. Who knows, JJ might be able to retroactively improve TLJ by putting it more into context with the rest of the saga and making it feel less disjointed. After all, he was the one who started the sequel trilogy so he might be the right man to finish it. He could rewrite Snoke's death to be a darkside force projection with the intention of luring Luke and Rey out of hiding and pushing Kylo fully to the dark side. It was Snoke's plan all along to fool the heroes and the audience. And after Luke's sacrifice the future of the resistance now looks bleaker than ever...

 

Not claiming moral superiority of any kind. I don't know where you got that. Just calling the hate what it is. Stupid. And it's the hate I'm talking about. Not valid criticisms. I've had enough of these people and their miserable attitudes. They spent 2 years complaining about TFA being too safe, now TLJ is the worst thing ever because it changed things too much. Simply insufferable.

 

Nope. You assume too much. I do however want to see hermit Rey in episode 10 now.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2017 ---

So you have spent your entire life liking everything you have ever seen? Pretty shallow to assume all people should think like you do.

 

It seems that audience score rating at Rotten Tomatoes of 54% has been genuine.

Rotten Tomatoes chief confirmed they have multiple teams that are checking and securing site from hacking and bots woting and have experience in that.

The backclash is genuine.

Aditionaly confirmed actually in here, on this forum.

And I feel it within people in my circle, polarised.

Its true, all of it.

 

While I can understand where the negativity is coming from I find myself disagreeing with it. In fact I find it baffling that so many fans disagree with the way Luke was portrayed in this film.

They had to find a reason to explain just why Luke had become a hermit after ROTJ. What better way than to have him discover nothing but absolute darkness in his own nephew? What else could be so destructive for Luke that it could turn him away from the force than to have him experience the exact opposite to everything he thought real in the OT? Here is a character (Ben Solo) beyond salvation. Pure evil. The fact that he did not kill the future supreme leader/mass murderer further cements that this IS in fact the Luke we all grew up with. Him being crushed by this event is very believable for this old school OT fan.

But again; I can sympathize with people disagreeing with this direction. More's the pity. I disagree with them. I loved this film even more than ep7 for the exact same reason many hate it. It contains Mark Hamill's best performance of Luke IMO.

 

so having a different luke for the sake of it is inherently better? please. you can insert anything to make something 'different', its actually not a hard thing to do, especially when it comes to characters. All Rian did was write the character in a way that subverted expectations. he also did that with Snoke. he also did that with his approach to Leia's Super Leia scene. he did it with Chewy choosing not to eat the Porg and instead let him come on the ship (or not eat it at all). he also did it with Poe and his mutiny. he also did it with Finn (using Rose as a romanitc interest). theres a pattern here. the point is its not hard to subvert expectations and some work and some dont. Luke's doesnt. it doesnt work (imo) because the character already went through bigger and more important things than a vision that happened on a bad day. it was also executed poorly, in the way they had set up Kylo telling Rey a version of what happened, and that essentially being exactly what happned when they ran us through it aagain with Luke's version of events. the execution here just didnt feel earned, right, or within character. then his following actions, or lack of, didnt feel right either. remember ANH, ESB, ROTJ all show a challenged, brave, reckless individual, that goes through certain developments each film. this didnt happen in this movie, and when it did, its like an existential crisis came and went within 30 minutes of meeting Rey, Chewy and then R2. he then didnt even leave the island to meet his sister in person. gave her fake die too. then mocked his nephew whom he failed. then he died from 'force overuse' like hes some kind of Sith Lord.

i knew Luke wasnt going to be the same Luke in the OT. i had the feeling that he did something to Kylo, failed him perhaps in some other way - a way thats within character. i would have been happy if perhaps they went with this version, yet made Luke actually leave Ach-To and confront Kylo and Leia like the rejuvneated, brave Jedi we know he is. but no, they went with some cheap 'shock' use of Force power to hide the fact Luke is still a failure with this incarnation.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2017 ---

@Kreetle Kris
except he isnt pure evil and it thats hugely emphasized in both TFA and TLJ - and Luke should have known that, having seen the exact same thing in Vader.

 

Of course not. And I never expect everyone to think like me. I know Star Wars fans well enough. Some of them love the things I don't. Some of them dislike the things I love. The problem for me comes when criticism turns into unhinged, unabashed hate. It goes well beyond mere critique and crosses the line of reason and all seriousness.

 

Why did Luke have to become a hermit at all??? Was this set in stone somewhere?

 

I wasn't a huge fan of TFA, I'd have given it a 7 out of 10 tops, on a good day. I put it pretty much on par with RotS, but different.

TLJ has some issues. It feels disjointed from TFA. Maybe had RJ or JJ been in control of the whole trilogy, it might have improved some things. Right now it feels like a camping game, when you have a bunch of people sitting around a fire, and one person starts a story then hands it off to the next and so on and so forth. It's a funny game and creates some plot twists, but certainly isn't very artful or coherent.

I walked out of TLJ very disappointed. I'm a long time fan and though I was somewhat saddened they weren't using the EU, I also had high hopes with this new direction. I got onboard so to speak, mostly because there were some cringe worthy moments in the EU, mostly because of it being handed to different writers over and over again (Disney has to avoid this, or we'll have an EU part 2).

Now this Trilogy is doing the same thing. The story doesn't follow an easy to follow arc. Subplots serve more to confuse as we try and pay attention and expect the plots to come together at some point. Some do, some don't, and that's confusing. They'd have been better off making a Finn spin off movie than including his escapades in this movie. I like Finn, but his arc in TLJ wasn't anywhere near as interesting as Luke's and Rey's.

There were cringe worthy parts in this movie too, namely Leia's Supergirl or Mary Poppins tributes. People knowing things without an explanation. The use of Luke was disappointing. I could accept a Luke who's disheartened, but one that is ambivalent to his friends danger, or even willing to tread darkness while training students? It was hard to swallow.

Then there's Rey. I like the actress, she's awesome and it's the actress who's managing to keep things together. I have no issue with her parents being nobodies, but I do have issue with there being no explanation to her ability to use force abilities that we've always thought (and logic would dictate) needed training. In TLJ, there's her ability to use a lightsaber like a master despite having no lightsaber training. In TFA there was the Jedi Mind Trick. As a fan, I need an explanation as to why she can use those powers. None came in episode 8, so now I'm waiting for episode 9. Will I watch 9?

No. I'm stepping back somewhat from Star Wars. I don't feel that those in charge understand the universe, or respect the universe as much as many fans do. I can accept seeing new Jedi powers, but there has to be some rhyme or reason. Having a newb come in and know everything is like having an average peasant pick up a spell book for five minutes and defeat an experienced wizard in a fantasy story.

Star Wars is fantasy, but even fantasy has rules. It's supposed to make us believe the unbelievable, to suspend our disbelief and super impose new laws and rules. The OT did this extremely well. The prequels already had us buying in and with a Jedi order, it was easier to accept since there were schools training Jedi.

But this Disney trilogy seems to be playing fast and loose. Things could be explained in episode 9, and maybe if I read these loose threads are getting tied down, I might go watch it on the 2nd weekend or something. I only fear that the more it's going, the more loose threads are being created.

I have no issue with fans liking this movie. I think many fans do knit pick at things. I like being surprised, but I don't like the universe being made into a fairy tale. There should still be a structure, physics laws(albeit modified) should still exist. If they want to bend those laws, that's fine, but they need to explain how or why. Starwars always tended to be more fantasy than science, especially when the Force was involved, but even magic follows some basic concepts. Our minds need to learn things, otherwise you may as well introduce Star Trek's Q to Starwars.

Honestly, as a fan of the EU, if Disney is going to make such a mess of things with writers and directors who don't respect the established lore, I'd rather they'd have just made the EU, even with it's flaws. I wanted this to be good, but I feel it's being dumbed down and starting to seem ridiculous. Maybe it's me getting older, I don't know, but I still like the Starwars universe, I just wish they'd put more effort into making the fantastic believable.

 

No, having a different Luke is, as I said, more realistic and relatable than having a man whose character hasn't evolved in 30 years, particularly after the failure of his academy. Our understanding of Luke's character is cemented in the Luke we knew 30 years prior. We don't allow the passage of three decades to change it at all, nor do we accept any weakness or frailty on his part - because he's the perfect hero Luke Skywalker - something that he admits to have struggled with over the years with his mythic status. It prevents him from acting like a real human with doubts, fears and weakness when the established legend makes him out to be superhuman. I disagree with the idea that his death was cheap and pointless. He died as Obi Wan did, a sacrifice allowing his sister and the others to escape. That's not a failure, that's absolutely heroic.

 

Obi at least had the balls to address his failures directly, both by guarding Luke and then sacrificing himself by confronting Vader. hardly the same, in fact its not (ironic you say its the same, yet lauding how much its different). people do change. thats normal. i expected this, and detailed my reasoning. a natural evolution could have been questioning the old ways of the JEdi and implementing change. not cutting himself off from the force because he had a bad vision on a bad day.

 

The issue people have is not with the idea that Luke could have changed over the years that's perfectly reasonable, the problem is this Luke is like the complete opposite of the old Luke. How does a person go from trying to save space hitler against everyone's advice, even deciding to give up his life instead of killing him to comtemplate murdering his nephew in his sleep just in case he does something bad?

 

1.) It's critically-acclaimed.
2.) It's gonna make a bungload of cash.
3.) Rinse & repeat.

 

Amen to that . But I guess we're all gonna have to accept the fact that this movie just doesn't sit well with everyone. There's a divide we're never going to mend by telling each other why we loved or hated it. People have different expectations. I just don't think it's ever going to be a good idea to cling to them so fiercely. When did we ever get exactly what we wanted with Star Wars? It's part of the deal - we don't write these movies. And you can call RJ many things, but he knows a lot about Star Wars and probably put a lot of thought in his script. He just dared to take a different approach. The problem with movies is always going to be that basically everyone sees a different one, even when they're all called "The Last Jedi". Our feelings affect the way we interpret things and emphasize or ignore certain aspects in our perception.
Everyone's entitled to their own version of TLJ. I just don't think we're ever going to make each other like or hate it, and we really don't have to.

 

Fair enough. Let me rephrase. Ben Solo is a character who chooses the dark side every time he has the chance to redeem himself. Sure he is tempted by the light, but he chooses darkness at every turn. The scene where Rey offers him redemption plays out as the complete opposite as the one where Luke 'saves' Vader in ep6.
Kylo Ren is no Vader wannabe, he is far, far worse. He is a Skywalker who cannot be saved.

I believe it is this Luke saw in his pupil; no matter what people try Kylo will always choose darkness. It is this insight that crushed him.

 

sure, i can get on that, but its not been established that way. at least not yet. so can you see how the thing that has been 100% established (that Ben floats between light and dark) and how that affects the 'twist' that Luke automatically assumes (whether it be for a moment or not) that Ben is evil, affects the viewers and fans? your view is implied, but certainly not 100% and i honestly think it wont be clarified, but thats my view and i admit i could be wrong. even if i am, it still goes against everything that Luke was in the OT. people change, Luke went from naive farm boy to confident Jedi Knight in the OT. in the ST he could hav ebeen a conflicted JEdi MAster that doubts the JEdi way or doctrine, that would still be a change and remain true to the character. this doesnt and isnt. and thats disappointing.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only recommend a second viewing, made things so much better for me, because the first time I was disappointed too.

As for the percentages you mention, it is too hard to talk about them, I still believe that the vast majority liked the movie but the haters hate it with passion and they are loud enough to make it feel like they are a lot mora than they are.

I'm fine with them, I can even understand them, but a petition to make TLJ not canon? It's kinda ridiculous, although I would sign one to make a special edition without the Canto Bight scenes.