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What if Force Ghosts are not ghosts at all?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Sparafucile, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I remember reading somewhere on here that some people use to theorize that only Luke could see Force ghosts, until of course Yoda announces that he talked to Qui-Gon in the PT.

    So I wonder, could it be that Force Ghosts are really just a Jedi's way of "self talk", or maybe praying? An atheist would say when you're talking to God, you're talking to yourself. What if Jedi are just talking to themselves and the ghost is a projection (or hallucination) side effect, thus Luke would be the one who called down the lightning.

    It would explain why Obi-Wan sat on a log, and such to. It could even be a manifestation of the Force, using a familiar face to communicate with the Jedi. God speaking to a priest, prophet or saint.

    I have to admit, the lightning looked cool in TLJ, but I've had an issue with a ghost altering the land of the living, and I think if JJ wanted to back pedal a bit, something like this would probably work pretty well as an explanation.
     
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  2. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    If I would be able to express myself in english on a level like Dumbledore when he meets HP in the "world between" ("Kings Cross station" scene), I would say sthg like: Yes I am quite sure that it is a projection of the Force users who reach out, but that does not make a "force ghost" "unreal" FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW :)
     
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  3. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Memories can haunt you, especially those of people you've cared about, so the whole point of view thing definitely applies. That in itself would expand a lot on FG though, as linking them to memory would limit them canon-wise to having to have met them/known them (at least have seen them in a video/holo) to be able to manifest them from your memory.

    Kind of off topic, but do certain people with mental illness who see things "that aren't there" actually not seeing what is not there? Or are they seeing things we can't perceive (without drugs, which snowballs into what drugs do, do they allow us to see things we normally can't access)? Are Jedi's (or just Yoda and Luke... and Leia and Ben now) wise/gifted schizophrenics?

    Back fully on topic, I'm not saying limitation is necessary, they can keep it ambiguous (which I think is the best option), but the more they delve into it, expand lore and canon, the more, by default, they are setting limitations and rules on them in one fashion of another. As much as a part of me would like to see Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Qui-Gon (and now Luke and soon Leia) sitting beyond the veil, or having adventures beyond the veil, I know it would ultimately be disappointing, but I don't think any one person's imagination can do that whole existence justice. Ultimately it would fail for most, if for no other reason our social and religious preconceptions (you don't even need to be religious yourself, but having had religious people around you, it's amazing how some ideas get implanted). I think it would cheapen the FG, so personally I'd rather they keep FG for short spurts and a somewhat rare event. I know it's boring, but to me I see the alternative as increasing the odds of delving too deeply into their existence and losing the "magic".
     
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  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Maybe force ghosts are just the force itself in the form of the people we want to see. The force is very powerful and so it could easily use the mind which is seeing a force ghost. If that's the case, then it could be theoretically possible that Rey sees Han or Leia as a force ghost. This is something I wouldn't like to see though...
     
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  5. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Wouldn't someone have to be Force sensitive/know the power to become a Force ghost? It sounds like Qui-Gon was the first.
     
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Yeah, that's true. Only Jedi can become force ghosts, but if there is no Jedi and you need guidance by the force, then maybe the force sends you help in the form of a loved one, even though this one wasn't force sensitive. I don't believe in this myself though. I'm just speculating. Haha!
     
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  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I guess it depends. If the force ghost is only a manifestation created by someone who's force sensitive, then technically, I guess it's not a ghost at all, so the ghost themselves don't have to have the force because they are technically only a memory from a force sensitive person.

    I'm just speculating too, I really doubt that's the way they'd go.
     
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  8. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    The idea that it's the Force manifesting itself through familiar faces is interesting. I think there's good canon evidence that these ghosts are one with the force, so there might be a sense in which you have a bit of both. It's actually Obi-Wan, but it's also the Force itself.

    As for the self-talk idea, I respectfully, strongly disagree. It's a very modern tendency to de-mystify the mystical, or to reduce the spiritual to the psychological. But Star Wars is a deeply spiritual text, and to render Force ghosts as self-talk would be reductive and life-draining to the whole story.

    I like the comparison to prayer, but not to a reductive atheistic conception of prayer. Rather, I would connect this to a spiritual conception of prayer, one that connects the physical and the spiritual, one that invites us into mystery and beauty, igniting the imagination.
     
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  9. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Force Ghosts aren't ghosts of dead people. They are the energy of a Jedi who has transformed from matter to energy to continue their existence within the Force. Life creates the Force, so how can a Force Ghost be a dead ghost? Because they aren't dead. Think of it as a one-way Star Trek transporter, that too converts matter to energy.

    Obi-Wan did not die, he transformed into the Force as taught to him by Yoda with his "new training". This is why Vader was surprised and stamped on his robes, not because he was being fire safety concious. Vader knew nothing about extra training or eternal life within the Force.

    Yoda did not die, he transformed into the Force in bed as his 900+ year body was old, weak and dying, so he transformed into the Force before his body died.

    But the Anakin Force Ghost makes no sense at all. He DIED inside the Vader suit, but did not "vanish" or convert to energy. There really shouldn't be an Anakin Force Ghost, as he never recieved "the training" while he was alive.
     
    #9 SKB, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  10. High General Kenobi

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    I agree with everything else you said, but, since the Anakin Force Ghost IS canon, then we have to assume that it's also canon that you don't necessarily have to receive the training while you are alive, but you can also learn it after dying. Indeed, Qui-Gon did.

    After all, as you said, the Force itself can't be destroyed. The body might be slain beforehand, but the Force essence within remains and can be willed to take form.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Force ghosts are possible by the living Force of an individual "flowing into the Cosmic Force".

    I do think the "self talk" aspect is an interesting thought, particularly because we know that Force Ghosts can selectively reveal or hide themselves from sight, and the fact that generally we only see Force Ghosts revealed to people who have some connection to the person they're seeing.

    Something I find particularly fascinating is the sort of transcendental nature of the Force as portrayed by Yoda in ESB. "Luminous beings are we." I think a lot of people now see the Force as some sort of magic power that Jedi have that lets them throw around rocks and jump high, but ESB (and now TLJ) has done a pretty good job of showing the more spiritual, existential side of the Force.

    Everything is connected by the Force and is in fact bound and part of the Force.

    What's interesting to me is this: identity.

    When we see a Force ghost, what we're seeing is living Force energy combined with energy of the Cosmic Force. I guess you can kinda think of it like the Ship of Theseus. Is that energy still the Jedi that we know? Is it the Force taking on a familiar shape to assert and progress its will? Or is it somewhere in between?
     
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  12. Finn is a Jedi

    Finn is a Jedi Rebel Official

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    I liked the idea of doing a Vader story (movie, comic, book, animated, whatever) where Vader gets this calling through the force. He is disturbed by it and goes to track to down. This will eventually lead him to the planet with the Force Priestesses. Vader would be very Vader-y toward them, not believing them and maybe even putting them down, calling them frauds, so on and so forth. He'd go through the same trials that Yoda did in TCW but instead of a shadow version of himself its Hayden's Anakin. He continues through the visions and stuff and actually gets to the end but Vader denounces the whole thing as a farce and leaves. The final moments would be a conversation between the priestesses and Qui Gon with the priestesses saying something like "We told you, he is beyond redemption" and Qui Gon retorts "Trust me, he is the chosen one. He will not disappoint me" leaving it to be implied that his final sacrifice and return to the light side was the final steps needed for him to complete the trials which allows him to become a ghost.

    Technically I think Anakin did disappear since they only ever mention Luke burning the armor. Thats something that should have been changed in the special editions. George should have made him fade away.
     
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  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    My internal canon is that Force Ghosts are the filmmaker's way of conveying to the audience a presence that Luke or Yoda feels and not something that really is seen in the physical world. I will forever hold to my belief that no one on Endor besides Luke sees (or even could have seen) Anakin-Yoda-Obi-Wan. (Well, maybe Leia potentially could have but my take is that she doesn't.) However, for storytelling purposes, it works better for the audience to view two individuals having a conversation rather than have a dialogue with just a voice in his head.

    NOTE: There obviously are scenes where you only hear Obi-Wan's voice in E4 and E5, but for cinematic reasons they also emply the device of Force Ghosts in other situations.
     
    #13 Wolfpack, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  14. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    In my opinion, it has been clear since at least ROTJ that Force Ghosts couldn’t possibly be imaginary or only exist as an internal element of the person seeing them. Obi-Wan’s ghost tells Luke something Luke doesn’t know, that he has a sister.

    You can call them “ghosts” or Force projections or something else, but I say that whatever they are, they are an actual thing that exists. Trying to analyze the exact mechanics of the process is possibly “taking a fable too literally.”

    Regarding how Anakin managed to ghost-ify without training, he may have been helped by the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda, he may have figured it out by watching Obi-Wan disappear, and/or he may have special powers because he is the chosen one.
     
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  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    If the ghosts are a hallucination...did Luke Skywalker simply imagine the force tree being blown apart?
     
  16. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    He would have (and bare in mind, this is all speculation) imagined Yoda there and would have called the lightning down himself, subconsciously.
     
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  17. BaserCreatures

    BaserCreatures Rebelscum

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    I will give you credit for a creative theory which could hold weight. I just don't particularly like it.

    I think theories like this take the hope and faith out of Star Wars. The Force, the Jedi. It is a religion and deity. Force ghosts represent an afterlife, a heaven if you will. I like the galaxy having something to believe in besides what is going on in a crazed wizard's brain.
     
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  18. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    I'm not sure the "rules" of Force Ghosts have ever been established. They seem to be able to interact with the real world, even OB1's ghost touches and comforts Luke, so there's some notion that aren't just vapor and can interact with real world objects.

    As for Yoda exploding the tree, it's an unfortunate scene. Unfortunate because at the time, Yoda already knows its unnecessary since the books are gone. He seems to do it, just to have a laugh over Luke. I like how Yoda keeps a sense of humor with Luke, always have, but that particular move seems unnecessary and a tad out of character for the old, wise mentor.

    Rian loves to "shock" his audience a little too much I think and while it can really work at times (Snoke's throne room scene comes to mind), other times he throws away a lot of established character traits, just to get a guffaw or shock out of the audience and to me, that is really weak writing.

    I like TLJ, but understand the criticism of how Yoda is portrayed in the film.
     
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  19. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    i thought it was a fact...thanks for clarifying...:p yes he might have done that, but isn't that thinking too much into the story of the character? it seems like some content from a book...original it is, though
    .
     
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  20. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Yoda has ignited fire of the Force tree by summoning Lightning.

    Sounds like a real thing to me.

    Or was it Luke projecting his guilt of burning down the tree, so he imagined Yoda doing it for him?

    hm.. to much Sigmund Freud in here I sense.( and Reylo whish Luke's ghost never returns)

    I stick to belief Force Ghosts are real , just like the Force itself.
     
    #20 McDiarmid, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
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