What's the point of this trilogy?

No Luke did not want to kill his nephew. He had a moment when the dark side overcame him when he saw the future. Remember how Luke has seen the future before and Yoda says "Always in motion the future is". He quickly squashed the impulse, but Ben didnt see it that way. Remember point of view. It is pretty damn important to Star Wars. Luke indeed was scared of Darth Vader and wanted to kill him when his sister became known. Again Luke was capable of pushing aside the dark side. Yes Star Wars is a take on the Heroes Journey including the journey of the old hero. As much fun as the Avengers is, it isnt.

Oh and my late teen early 20s sons still ask for Call of Duty year after year. My 18 year old still asks for Madden every year and so do his buddies.

 

Luke ignited his lightsaber. He wanted to kill his nephew out of fear, but he changed his mind. This impulse argument is a whitewash, just excuses after the damage is done. If someone pulls a knive on you, no person in their right mind would accept the excuse "It was a fleeting impulse, but I'm oke now. I didn't really want to kill you. Let's have a beer.". Luke pulled out his lightsaber to strike down the sleeping son of his sister, and his best friend. He didn't have courage to confront this young boy, and resorted to sneaking into his bedroom to read his mind, and couldn't handle what he saw, and gave into fear, despite the fact that a Jedi should be able to control himself in a real crisis situations, let alone when confronted with visions of a possible future.

 

That was the whole point of showing the scene 3 ways. That someone doesnt have the ability to see that you become Hitler. Impulse really isnt even the right word, reflex is better, but it is a galaxy that has the Dark Side. We also dont live in a world with something called the Dark Side of the Force that people like Luke have to content with every day of their lives.

 

In my view this defense is missing the point of Luke's arc in the OT entirely. This argumemt hinges on the idea, that Luke is only human, and prone to error. However, Luke is not just human. He is a Jedi. To become a Jedi is equivalent to reaching a state of enlightenment, to not be driven by impulse, anger, fear, and aggression. It's not even that Luke is confronted by some terrible act of evil. He had a vision of a future. A future he should know is not set in stone. However, rather than act like a Jedi, Luke acts on impulse like the young boy who rushed to face Darth Vader in TESB. Luke regressed as a character. That is the issue many people have with the way his arc is set up.

 

So you have elevated 1 Jedi to be beyond human. To be more god then human. The point of Luke's arc is not to become a god it is to show. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love. That is what Luke did and that is what brought back Anakin from within Vader. Luke saved his father and the father saved the son out of love. It wasnt the Force, it wasnt Jedi, it was a stronger human force.

 

We're talking about people that can read other people's minds, move objects without touching them, and exist beyond death. Of couse they are beyond the average human. However, in theory any human who puts in the effort can do it. The real crux of being a Jedi is the spiritual side. It is equivalent to reaching a state of enlightenment. The ST devalues the entire concept of becoming a Jedi. In the new canon you are randomly selected by the powers on high, and bombarded with phenominal cosmic powers, no training or spiritual enlightenment required, whereas those that actually put the effort in (as in years of training, and meditation) seemingly forget their training at the first sign of trouble, and then just give up. Luke failed spectacularly at being a Jedi, and it appears for no other reason than that the story needed him to fail, such that the next generation can clean up his mess .

 

The crux isnt to become non-human. Rey's phenomenal power so far is the ability to lift rocks. Something that canon shows untrained toddlers doing as well.

 

I don't agree with justifying Luke's actions in ROTJ with TLJ because they are totally different situations. Luke was goaded by the Emperor in ROTJ, and then goaded by Vader to fight as Luke kept (hiding or throwing down his lightsaber) during the whole Throne Room Scenes. TLJ Luke was PRE-EMPTIVE, as HE was the one who went to confront a sleeping Kylo Ren. EVERYTHING he did in TLJ was because of his own actions, where ROTJ were more reactive to how The Emperor and Vader were literally tempting him to fight back (Heck, he even goes to Vader on Endor and surrenders thinking Vader will not take him to the Emperor). That to me is why you can never compare those 2 movies, and why Luke is somewhat out of character to me regarding everything that happened in that TLJ flashback.

 

You have never seen this Luke that is free from emotional action. This inhuman robotic Luke has never been shown. Not to mention the Luke in TLJ was the Luke set up by the TFA crawl and the Han converstation with Rey and Finn where Luke went. This Luke blamed what happened on himself and ran away. Amazes me setup Luke as some Jedi beyond Jedi's. Someone who had very little training and had very little material to use to gain understanding. He did not have the Jedi archives any longer. He had to travel the galaxy to find nuggets of information. While the PT era Jedi did not reach this level of enlightenment with so much knowledge available to them and other Jedi to train with and learn with.

 

Luke proactively sought out Vader in ESB despite Yoda telling him to stay away. Luke is and always will be an emotional hothead. He acts rashly every single time. Then once his brain catches up he does the right thing. TLJ Luke was 100% on point IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2019 ---

I hope to read the 11 pages of thread, but I'm going to do a lazy post first. It would have been hard to know the "point" of the OT or PT after only their first 2 movies. That's the point of the 3rd movie in a trilogy, to wrap it up into a meaningful 3 movie narrative. Yes, it's a big ask for this movie to deliver, just as it always is with a final movie in a trilogy. The ST trilogy will be judged by the quality of this movie. I'm hopeful but we'll have to wait and see.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2019 ---

You literally described the OT. 3 different directors. 3 different writers.

I know the narrative is that "There is no plan" but we have to wait and see.

 

George Lucas wrote part of each OT movie and was Executive Producer for each OT movie. "3 different directors. 3 different writers." is literally NOT what the OT is nor what I described. And it shows. The people saying that there wasn't a hard and fast structure to the story are:

1. Rian Johnson
2. J.J. Abrams

"I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.”

https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2017...wars-sequel-trilogy-defends-last-jedi-humour/

“While there are some threads of larger ideas and some big picture things that had been conceived decades ago and a lot of ideas that Lawrence Kasdan and I had when we were doing Episode VII, the lack of absolute inevitability, the lack of a complete structure for this thing, given the way it was being run was an enormous challenge,” Abrams admitted.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...to-Last-Jedi-JJ-Abrams-Rian-Johnson-interview

So we don't have to wait and see, we can take the film makers at their word, they were figuring it out as they went.

 

It is not a matter of being free from emotion. It is a matter of not letting those emotions get the better of you. That is what being a Jedi is all about. Hence, a Jedi may worry about what he sees for Ben's future, but he would not allow fear to control his actions, and whip out a lightsaber. That is what the ending of Luke's arc in ROTJ was all about. He had to let go of his fear, and anger, and so he tossed away his lightsaber, whilst facing the most evil, and powerful being in the galaxy. That Luke would not pull his lightsaber on a young boy sleeping in his bed. If he can control himself when faced with absolute evil, and in that moment thus become a Jedi, he should be able to control himself when faced with the possibility of future evil. Without providing further context, and development in Luke's character, that explains his change from the Jedi he became at the end of ROTJ, to the scared old man he was in the TLJ flashback, Luke's characterization is inconsistent in my view.

He was 100% TESB Luke, not the Luke who tossed away his lightsaber when faced with the most powerful dark side user in history. That Luke is no longer a hothead, because he realized that path would cause him to become like his father. Luke's trials in becoming a Jedi was to overcome his rash behaviour, his impulsiveness, and impatience, and he did just that.

 

The difference is that Lucas was the storyteller for all 3 OT movies. Yes there were different directors to execute his story, and there was Lawrence Kasdan to write his story, but THE story was all George Lucas. Kasdan wanted to kill someone at the beginning of ROTJ, and Lucas said no. Harrison Ford wanted to die in ROTJ, and Lucas said no. Lucas made the final decision on every major storyline/theme/plot point in the OT.

Rian Johnson and JJ have been the storyteller for this Trilogy, and there is no way that 2 people can have the same overall story in mind. It is just natural that JJ and RJ will disagree on something when developing the story, and that is why it feels so disjointed in so many plot points. It happens a lot on TV as many creators leave a show after a few seasons, and the show is never the same (Homeland is a perfect example), simply because no 2 people are going to have the same story in their head. Lucas was making things up as he went along in the OT, but he was still developing the story on his terms. RJ disregarded many things from TFA, just as it looks like JJ is disregarding or reintroducing (The Knights of Ren) many things from TLJ and TFA.

 

The OT was about a boy learning to be a man - a son learning to forgive the father who abandoned him. All that other stuff is just backdrop.

Agreed. But I still think people are deifying the OT a little here. Don't get me wrong, the OT in my mind is way above any other Star Wars movie IMO, but George was 100% making it up as he went along. I don't think Vader being Luke's father was decided until ESB was being written, and I don't think a lot of the major plot points of ROTJ were set in stone until ROTJ was being written. And that's fine! A high level arc is necessary, but a lot of the details are created or changed during the process.

You will never convince me that they had no plan for where the ST was going. I think the high level has been mapped out from the beginning. They just gave the the directors lots of room to make stuff up along the way. I don't think JJ or Rian's quotes about artistic freedom contradict that at all. Now maybe Rian got a little too much freedom, that's a fair criticism. I'm just saying I think there is a plan to land this plane.

 

Or is that just the one-sided musings of a disgruntled adult fan?

 

I don't think so. I don't think the OT movies are superior to the franchise's other films. Yes, I have a low opinion of the ST movies. But my feelings for the PT and stand alone films are basically the same as my feelings for the OT movies.

 

I don't think so. Considering the controversy surrounding Luke's character, I can only imagine there are a lot of confused kids out there as well, who don't understand how the Luke Skywalker from the OT turned into Jake Skywalker from the ST. The ST changed the trajectory of Luke's character by turning him into a shell of his former self. There's no doubt that before the ST was created, Luke and his friends defeated the Empire, whilst Luke became a Jedi and was going to rebuild the Jedi order, end of story. The idea that Luke's behaviour in TLJ is consistent with the OT is revisionist nonsense in my view. To be fair, I don't think Luke's arc in the ST is a terrible idea. I just think it's very poorly set up, not unlike Daenarys' sudden bout of madness in GOT's final season. The idea that Luke could go from being the optimistic hero to pessimistic hermit is conceivable, but it has to be earned through proper story telling. A single flashback of Luke standing over his nephew with a lightsaber isn't going to cut it for me, and a lot of other people. Two of the main heroes of the OT were turned into huge failures without much context or explanation, and just gave up on everything they once stood for, just waiting for the events of the ST to unfold. That is not proper character development. It's forcing these characters into a place where the plot or writer wants them to be. I think that is a fair criticism.

 

I dunno.

When I was a kid, I just kind of accepted what I watched. I wasn't confused when Han wanted to leave the Rebels at Hoth, or when Vader redeemed himself.

I just feel like this is projecting adult feelings onto someone else, and it kind of reeks of "Will someone please think of the children?". Like, sure, some kids probably felt like that, but I haven't really heard of it being that widespread. Plus, from what I've seen in cosplays and such, kids seem to have latched onto characters like Rey and Poe as the heroes of this trilogy, anyway.

 

Key word in that quote is ALL.

Like GL and his team at the time of the OT. The had conceived many things over the years. Yet they also had a lack of complete structure. You need to leave room for creative direction. To see how things naturally evolve on screen with characters, structure, response from audience, etc. That isnt a bad thing it is a good thing. They had overall story arc's yet they were given a great amount of creative freedom. People act like RJ could simply have started a new story and did what he wanted. He didnt he continued the story in a perfectly logical and natural manner. Some people didn't like answers that were given some of which were clearly foreshadowed in TFA even from the opening crawl. You can see proof of collaboration and planning in the Art of TFA and Art of TLJ books. You will likely see even more in the Art of TROS book when it releases. The Art of TLJ book contained art work from TFA story line that was held back previously because it would have given away story of TLJ. We will likely see more of that in the Art of TROS book. You will likely see art from 2013-2014 in that book.

Finally Kathleen Kennedy said this before TFA released.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 6, 2019 ---

Not using them because they didnt have a part in the TLJ story is not disregarding them. He even has Snoke mention them. If had wanted them gone they could have had a throw away line mentioning that they were killed or what not. It was not the responsibility of TLJ to answer provide more detail on everything produced in TFA. I always found it perfectly logical that all the First Order would not be together during TLJ. What would you do if you were Snoke. Would you have all your leaders together with you or would you have them out in other combat groups taking over words as TLJ suggested in the opening crawl. Thats not disregarding, that is being logical.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 6, 2019 ---

Not to mention I didnt look for holes, sometimes stupid holes. Like for instance why didnt the Empire just blow up Yavin and take out the moons along with it? Why didnt the Rebels simply send the money to Jabba so they didnt lose one of their leaders because he had a debt. I didnt do it then and I dont do it now. I let the story tellers tell the story and not start saying.. Ohhhh plot hole, plot hole. I gotcha filmmaker.

 

Nah, it wasn't written

The thing is though, that unlike any of the previous trilogy the lack of cohesion between entries is an often heard complaint, even recognized by many fans of the ST. So, it seems silly to suggest the OT was conceived in similar fashion, when no such complaints exist for the OT, or the PT for that matter. Even if there was some overarching vision for the ST, that would imply it didn't translate to a significant proportion of the viewers, which is still a fail on the part of the creators.