SPECULATION Why Did Ben Solo Turn to the Dark Side?

i can go along with that.

the thing is though... Snoke did get to Ben. the question is - what was he able to do to Ben Solo at that age?

Did Ben fall when Snoke wanted him to? was he programmed to reach a certain level of training before becoming Kylo Ren?


to answer the Op's question from my point of view.. Ben was turned before he was born, but Snoke didn't want him until he was old enough.

i think it's purely because of his power and the strength & love of his parents that there is something else in there fighting to get out.

what if he was being literal, and wasn't talking about the force?

what if little Ben Solo is still waiting to be born?

 

I think it was a mixture of things. I'm sure than Ben and Luke had a little bit of conflict although they isn't any information available about their relationship yet. I'm sure that Ben finding out his father was Darth Vader when he was already an adult would've really changed his world. Then if Snoke intervened at a time when he was vulnerable it'd explain his turn.

 

i tend to agree with @Righteous Smoke.
Ben might have been fighting the Dark for a long time and finally was made catastrophically vulnerable by the reveal of his ancestry.

i don't know if i buy into an idea in which someone with no agency can be turned. a child before the age of reason isn't considered to have agency (though cultures will differ on what the age of reason is). i think it's important for Ben to have been Ben once (even if he was always struggling) because he needs to have something to come back to.

 

A good question. I have wondered this myself. Though now I think it links into this whole "Force draining" and/or mind probing/thought implanting techniques that I believe Snoke is a master of. I think he could simply "spread negative thoughts" - almost like a depression. But what strikes me as incredible is that Snoke can actually use the Force in this way. Sounds very Plagueis-esque to me.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2017 ---

Yeah, I think this was more about Snoke planting the dark seeds rather than actually turning Ben in any way at this stage.
For me, the mistake Leia made with Ben was in sending him away - not in terms of the separation but in terms of having him trained as a Jedi.
Only when he was trained was the danger made more real.
"Grave danger I fear in his training".
Had Ben Solo not been trained as a Jedi then Snoke wouldn't have had the power to do much with him. And the pull of the Dark Side wouldn't have been so strong.
I'm surprised Luke didn't realise this himself and argue against training him...unless that is he knew all too well and wanted to draw out Snoke?

 

it will be really interesting to find out whether Ben himself wanted to be trained. i originally thought he must have: that he wasn't interesting in Han or Leia's vocations but maybe more inward focused on his own abilities. but if Ben was bothered from the womb it's possible he was fighting his own power and yeah, Leia, thinking it would help him, actually sent him into a situation in which it made it all the easier to uncork the genie from the bottle. she thought it would help, but it just put him more deeply in touch with the pull of the Force, which he doesn't understand (maybe none of them do), and which Snoke happily took advantage of.

 

Yeah, interesting. I do wonder about Luke though - why so glum? I mean, if he just failed because Ben was already manipulated by Snoke, then he shouldn't blame himself too much. But what if he actually used Ben as bait to lure out the elusive Snoke and it backfired? It sounds like Luke was travelling the galaxy with Ben a lot (and not his other students). Was this because he favoured him? That doesn't sound very Jedi like. Or was it because Luke was using him for his mission? I mean, essentially the OT Jedi used Luke somewhat (whether that is as a weapon or to redeem his father) and put the mission before the child/person. And so, did Luke do the same? Is this why he is estranged from Leia? And if Rey finds this out, how will she feel about learning from him?

 

Maybe Luke took him away to hide/divert him from Snoke (or Snoke from him) to ensure he trains him in all aspects of the Light, especially the mentality - get to him first, if you will

Also, it's his nephew so he'll surely want the best for him anyway?

 

well that's the huge question - what did Snoke do. Aftermath has opened Pandora's box with that revelation and a few other nuggets of info.

A lot of people don't want Ren to be redeemed.. ever. What if RJ takes us to places in ep8 that show us that Snoke has had Ben in a living nightmare for 30 years? Kylo himself says that he's being torn apart, what if Snoke has literally been mentally torturing him for 30 years and we somehow get to see that play out.

What we found out about Snoke in Aftermath has potentially set that up.. don't ya think?

If the audience is to be united by episode 9 about what happy ending they want (cos right now, we're all over the shop peeps), then this would move us all in the right direction surely?

 

Indeed. I'm just suggesting another possible story that may help to explain why Luke is so cut up.

Thinking about it, I reckon we could see exactly that.
And if Rey sees this horror show that Ben has endured, well...she might just be more open to him, if you know what I mean? Wink wink, nudge nudge.

 

i don't think it's too much for Luke to feel like he failed Ben and his sister ~ Leia gave Ben to him specifically to protect him. teach him to control his own power (at least that's what it seems). doesn't seem like Luke would have deliberately put the kid in harm's way. we also don't know specifically that Luke and Ben traveled alone. so there's still too much information missing to draw conclusions about what Luke and Ben were like together--or even what Ben was like immediately before his fall.

of course there is absolutely the possibility that Luke was aware that Ben was more troubled than even Leia imagined and that part of their wanderings was about trying to help. again, my impression at this point (subject to change, as always) is that maybe Ben was always struggling, and the crushing news about Vader just shattered his defenses.

once Ben was vulnerable, it would have been so easy to Snoke to turn him against his family, blame them for all the pain he's always been in.
it would also go a long way to convincing Kylo Ren that killing his father would finally put an end to that pain.

 

We know now that Ben turned very late (in regards to the new canon timeline we have); we also know that he trained for a time with Luke Skywalker, was in constant contact with his parents at some level and that Leia knew Snoke. The turning point of his demise is what everyone is trying to find out.

Is it the revalation that his grandfather was a Sith Lord, or could it be the pressure Ben felt (possibly) trying to live up to expectations put on him as a Skywalker (unitentionally of course) The two biggest questions are is/how Luke Skywalker is involved and what did and how did Snoke get to Ben; Ben should've had Leia (force-sensitive), his father Han Solo, and at a minimum a Jedi Master his Uncle to shield him. (this doesn't included Lor San Tekka who appears to have known him well) However it occured it will be tied to Luke Skywalker; Ben's manipulation ocurred the forseeable redemption will most likely be because of this family as well


@FN-3263827 this is exactly what I think as well

"my impression at this point (subject to change, as always) is that maybe Ben was always struggling, and the crushing news about Vader just shattered his defenses."

 

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever told Ben that Snoke was manipulating him from the start?
I mean it seems to me, going by your assessment, that Ben always felt weakened and conflicted by his darkness and that when he found out about Vader this destroyed his confidence in his family but also provided him with what he saw was a cure - turn to the Dark Side and be strong like Vader. But had he known that Snoke was the one all along that made him feel weak, perhaps he wouldn't be so convinced of his advice?

 

exactly ~ Snoke presents himself as the cure, but really he's the sickness.

 

Please have a huge imaginary like. The Supreme @FN-3263827 is wise.

 

i'm trying to be careful about book spoilers here, but there are rumors (from forum posters) floating around that Rey could discover that her parents were responsible for discovering Snoke and unleashing him on the Galaxy. She would then, by proxy.. feel responsible for Ben.

if that was true, and she has felt what he is going through... then this would change the status quo about Ben's redemption and the whole ReyLo stuff.

just saying.... it hasn't particularly changed my mind about who i think Rey is, but it certainly is food for thought.

 

Wait, what? What book spoiler suggests this? Spoil me!

 

Kudos to you, @Maximus, for keeping an open mind! I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory you're referring to, but I think it's important for us viewers to remember that TFA only showed us a small portion of what went down, and we haven't seen the full story yet. There are lots of possibilities out there...

 

i used the wrong word.. i shouldn't have said rumors, i should have said there are theories.

all based on Aftermath Empire's End.

there is stuff in there you will find... most interesting.

I'm not sure i even like the theory i mentioned if i'm being honest lol.

If we ever get Ben back... the boy doesn't need to walk straight into a bloody relationship.

 

I want that book.

 

Haha! Or even a normal relationship . He does need to walk straight into the arms of his family though. I hope somehow it can be at least with his mother and certainly his uncle. (And maybe a sister/cousin, although I don't subscribe to that theory either anymore. )