Why is everyone here so obsessed with Darth Plagueis??

No the clip says the tragedy of darth plagues the wise. it never mentions a myth.

I’ve grouped your two points together for simplicity. but adddress them both here.

i think you nullify your own point, the legends used by the sith are allegorical tales used to teach. For him to acknowledge he knew them would have the same impact.

At the point in the film, anikin is desperate to save padame, because of his dreams of her dying in child birth, palpatine knows this and tells him the allegorical tale to imply that the knowledge is in existence and attainable but only through sith teachings.
If you don’t recognise the significant factors of this pivotal part of the movie, I’m not sure me trying to explain the is going to help.

Think about it like this, what was the point of the tale?

master is powerful, attains knowledge to create life an to stop the ones he cared about from dying.​

master is scared of loosing said power/knowledge.​

master teaches a student, to preserve the knowledge.​

student having attained ALL the knowledge, has no more use of the master and kills him. this is very clear in the clip and sith lore (power of two)?​

There are many other points within about power and the nature of it, irony in the fact that having learnt how to create and preserve life he couldn’t preserve his own life.
but to over look the essential plot point. the master feared loosing knowledge he had attained and in trying to preserve the knowledge, he introduced and apprentice (the only reason for the apprentice to be introduced)

These really are some of the key sith philosphys.

The power of two recognises the need to teach and preserve power and knowledge.
one to have power and one to crave it.

but in choosing a student you are also choosing a successor, once you have taught them, they will eventually out grow you, and the need for you, and ultimately kill you to fully realise there own skill’s.

at which point they need to take an apprentice themselves so there legacy is taught and continued.


now add your premise that the student didn’t need to have received the knowledge before he kills the master and whats the point?

the emperor has no need to lie. not about wether he has attained the knowledge himself.

he is not feared of anikins power

The point of the tale is to imply the emperor has the knowledge. as you say and that anikin won’t be taught it via the jedi.
so to lie about it, if he had it, would serve no purpose.

The point about anikins plans are irrelevant.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2016 ---

total agree, maybe mislead his puppy? lol

 

You mentioned splitting hairs between a tragedy and a myth, so I was asking for clarification. But that is no longer needed at this time.

Luke Skywalker nailed Palpatine's weakness in ROTJ, overconfidence.

 

what you mean once i have clarified. haha

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2016 ---

i don't think it was a conscious division on lukes behalf, to out think the emperor. he just knew he had to confront vader.
luke had no knowledge of the emperor before he fought vader?

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Plagueis would be interesting because, if he survived, he would have basically broken the meaning of the Rule of Two ( which creates more and more powerful Sith over time, when the apprentice overthrows the master ), and THAT my friends would be THE ultimate threat. A Sith can defeat alot of Jedis but he always end up being betrayed and killed. Not Plagueis, the perfect Darkside lord.

 

No... Palpatine killed him! End of story.

 

1. Building the Knights of Ren to strike back at the galaxy at the right time.

2. Anakin's Force Ghost would know his name. So there's definitely good reason to go by the name of Snoke.

3. Or Sidious was overconfident as it's shown is his biggest weakness and didn't learn everything as he thought he had. (Dave Filoni said that Sidious is looking for answers for immortality during Rebels but, never does) His overconfidence was shown at least once that sticks out, when he thinks that he killed Yoda in ROTS.

 

How in the world did this get a troll . . . who did not get this as a joke. WOW.

Let me see if I an help. I am not pro DP. I think he's dead.

The problem is first timing. I think that there was definitely some Retcon with the story of DP. Some people jumped on the idea that DP could influence the creation of life and made the assumption that he must be responsible for Anakin. That assumes that someone else couldn't do it but that was the speculation. I remember thinking at time the legend being ancient. When they came out with the DP novel they clarified that DP was Sidious' master. This fact would lost except that the Tarkin novel also makes reference to DP being Sidious' so from the perspective of the current canon DP is Sidious' master despite Palpatine calling the story a legend.

How does this work then?

First Palpatine was not yet fully revealed. So he does not come out and say did I ever tell you about my darkside master. He is still hidden so he calls it a Sith Legend. He twists the truth.

Second Palpatine uses the story to entice Anakin regarding keeping people he loves from dying. He is haunted by the idea of Padme dying. So Sidious goes for the weak point. So in the legend when Sidios says that the master taught everything to the apprentice. He is continuing to share the legend he lieing about it bying a legend in that he is actually telling the story of his own murder of his master. Something he cannot yet reveal to Anakin. Later when he says the power to cheat death is a power only one person has achieved. He is still referring to the story. He turned the events into a story for his own purposes.

This leaves questions sure.
1- Did Sidious know how to cheat death and just withheld it from Anakin knowing that he might need it as a manipulator down the road.
2- Did Sidious assume that he knew everything killed his master and later learned he lacked the knowledge about cheating death.

He's still dead but he was Sidious' master.

 

@Pastor Barndog

It also takes massively away from the scene, it was a myth that showed us, for the first time, the sith have a rich history with depth, and allegories used to teach and transmit knowledge. In making the myth literal, i feel it loses that. i understand lucas in a resent interview said he has never read any of the novels, so it seems unlikely that he would have been aware of that connection.

i think your also overlooking that in a rule of two type way. the apprentice kills the master, when they have learnt everything from them, also wasn't that a key part to the myth.
that the master was scared of losing his power so he taught someone it, to preserve it?

I'm sure they will end up going this way. I'm just not sure its necessary.
Everything doesn't have to tie in to something. That was one myth. the sith like the jedi have a rich history, spanning thousands of years, and within that have thousands of years worth of knowledge.
It enhances the validity of the new movies not, by tying it in to the prequels? if they want a SITH, with the powers over life they can just write one.

 

George had a hand on what was said in the novel. It's well known he hardly ever got involved in the EU. Why now?

Here's information from a Q&A with James Luceno.

How closely did you work with Lucas Licensing on Darth Plagueis? How much did George get involved? What advice did he give you?

“George was involved in the early stages. When the book was first proposed, I wrote to him and asked whether there was any reason why Plagueis couldn’t be a non-human, and he wrote back that Plagueis could be a Muun and sent me some artist renderings of the character. From that point on, everything was approved, as they’re saying, “at the highest level.” I worked most closely with George’s right-hand man at Lucas licensing, Howard Roffman. It was a strange way to go about the book, because I kind of had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard over the course of what amounted to about a year of preparation […] that a lot of the stuff came from the very top levels of Lucasfilm. Everything was approved at that high level. I had to make the assumption that Howard was speaking directly with George about a lot of this stuff. I didn’t have any meetings directly with George, but it seemed like a lot of the approval was coming through him to Howard.”


I think the idea of tying things together would give you more of a connected story then one that feels disjointed. A big problem according to some with the Prequels. Having Plagueis show up and/or be Snoke and do some of the things he did in the novel certainly would make a better, connected story. One that will surely bridge the gap and show the generational story of the Skywalker family well.

 

@Joe12Hawk

yeh still not sure. even still though.
just seems like people trying to tie in the prequels when it is not needed.
they have wrote a new character and thats what we asked for, new ideas and characters. the story is unaffected by it being tied in to sidious and plagues. or the prequels in any way. the prequels were also a prequel to 4-5-6 this is 7-8-9 they run on from them?
i understand a cohesive story with threads through out the whole saga, but its trying to hard to tie any mention of a person in to new stories to gain a false sense of validity.

People are speculating about a TWIST but why?
we don't even know anything about the character, SNOKE?
They thing VADER and LUKE "i am your farther" and think that's the star wars formula, but its not.
that was just one plot point that made other stores interesting.

there is a rich world that has been established with intergalactic wars and opposed sides of good and evil, light sabres and force users.
we want fresh stories from them, TFA did a brilliant job of transitioning from old to new but now we have the opportunity to see stories of OUR TIME, being played out. with all the SFX and tech they can use to enhance visually the story.

build on the foundations of the old movies we all love. but do something new. do what george did so well. create something fresh?

 

Bingo.

And @Pastor Barndog , you nailed it:
Palpatine had to create some separation between himself and his knowledge of the Sith.

Cue Legendary status.

 

“The stories follow a linear narrative that connects to the previous six films. The Force Awakens follows Return of the Jedi and continues that generational story.” - Kathleen Kennedy

Not exactly really, it adds depth to the story. As well as it adds to the tragedy of Darth Vader to have Snoke be Darth Plagueis. It could be said he is indirectly responsible for the creation of Anakin from quotes from both The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith. It could also be speculated that he is indirectly responsible for Sifo-Dyas placing the order for the Clone Army. It's a lot bigger then just being the "Father". It adds depth and reason to why Kylo Ren would join the Dark Side. He feel it's his destiny to be one with the Dark Side because, of lies he's been told by Plagueis and it's who he's lead to believe that he is. The First Order could only be Plagueis' tool until his army, the Knights of Ren are ready to strike at the galaxy and the remaining Jedi, especially Luke. With Luke gone, nobody will stay in his way. This is where Rey comes in ....

In a way, there's many ways the stories can go but, there's bigger things then Plagueis being the "Father". Especially if he's the reason Sido-Dyas ordered the army. It adds to the grand scheme of the Sith to control the galaxy. This is why he's so afraid of Luke, he knows he could be his undoing and doing so, the Sith will be extinct and no more. Thus creating the Knights of Ren to carry out their legacy.

Snoke being Plagueis has at least a few other things that could be indirect mention to character.

Plagueis Theme7Snoke's Theme are exactly alike.

Both are referenced to as "Wise" by their apprentice.

" There's always some truth in legends" - Ahsoka Tano in Star Wars: Rebels.

As well as ...

Snoke, he's very thin, 7 feet tall, and has pale white skin and black eyes.

Average Muun According to Non-Canom (Plagueis may not be on anymore but ..)

Muuns were tall and gaunt humanoids with thin bodies and elongated heads with hairless craniums. They also had pasty-white/pale pink to grey skin, most likely because the vast majority of the species did not like traveling, even on-planet, and usually stayed indoors. Muuns also had tiny ears on the middle of the sides of their heads. In addition they had flat noses, and slim mouths. Muun voices often sound nasally, due to their small noses.

 

1. Just to clarify thats what i was saying, they run on from 4-5-6

2. i believe the depth to come from kylo's natural affinity towards the dark side. i don't believe it's necessary for him to have been lied to. It's set up for a redemptive arc i personally don't want. i want a well developed committed bad guy.

 

I actually agree with you in part. When I first saw ROTS I figured that the legend was partially true that there was once a DP who was killed by his apprentice. I even figured Palpatine's smile was him remembering his own sith rite of passage killing off his master. When I learned that they made Plagueis Palpatine's master I didn't like it. That decision was made though prior to the idea of an ST. When they made that change they created a situation in which its clear that Palpatine was dissembling to tell the story in a way to tease the power of the sith, that the Jedi and Sith are both concerned with power and that good was simply a point of view.

As far as the Rule of Two its clear that it was more a guideline than actual rule. I also never got the idea from Canon that Apprentices only killed master after they had learned everything. That cripples the drama. If one day a master has taught the apprentice everything do they say so thus inviting the apprentice to kill them. I think its more likely apprentices struck when they felt they had learned enough to continue without their master.

I don't want DP to return nor do I think that there is much of a chance left that he is Snoke so obviously I don't think that he is a good connection to the previous movies I think Vader is a better connection. That is clearly what we see with Kylo Ren and I think that you will see Kylo overshadow Snoke soon enough.

 

I don't think any one has every said there to be a minute where the apprentice gets his 'you have learned all scroll' and does away with his master. lol

But clearly this would have been something that was desired by the apprentice to begin with.
As plagues's power wasn't political. when the rule of two 'one to have power one to crave it' element comes in, it would mean. dark side power.

As plagues only took an apprentice to pass on his force skills 'the ability to control life', and the only way an apprentice would take a master who had no way to demonstrate his power, other than to demonstrate his skills in the force.

It seems reasonable to assume the apprentice was

1. aware of plagues ability to 'create life, and stop the ones he cared about from dying.'
2. craved this power for himself.

As a consequence of this, he would not have killed with out accumulating the power for himself.

 

Because would be interesting to have a villain that ties all 9 movies together.

 

But we wouldn't, either way plagues was killed? Either by his apprentice in the myth of by sidious if taken literal. Would we?

Snoke is already a villain that has to have been around for ages. its quite conceivable he has been in the background along. Ding, Ding, Ding winner we have a Villan
and one that has always been in the background through out all the movies?
You think?

 

1. They continue the story from 4, 5, and 6 but, the narrative connects to all of them, including 1, 2, and 3. Hence the reference to Snoke should use Clones and Maz mentioning the Sith.

2. It's all speculation at this point. Only time will tell.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2016 ---

In the Tarkin novel it is confirmed he was Plagueis' apprentice.

 

That villain would be Darth Vader.

PT- The Fall of Anakin Skywalker
OT- The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker
ST- The Legacy of Anakin Skywalker

He is a much stronger direct connection to the Saga than Darth "mentioned at the opera" Plagueis.

Those are reasonable assumptions but not necessary ones. DP could have wanted to train Palpatine for his reasons and Sidious saw it as a means to power. The life and death stuff might be secondary.