SPECULATION Why Snoke has become most important character

Does it say that exactly? Does it say that Plagueis thought he unbalanced the Force?

 

From the movie:
PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?

ANAKIN: No.

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

.............................
ANAKIN: Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death.

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

ANAKIN kneels before PALPATINE.


The one who can cheat death is Qui-Gon.

beyond this - the film makers have said Snoke is an original character not someone else, we know Snoke, Kylo and the Knights of Ren are not Sith where Plagueis is a Sith. We know Kylo's Lightsaber looks the way it does because he didn't have guidence in building it. Are we to believe that Plagueis doesn't know how to build a lightsaber?

 

Repeating .

Novel" Tarkin" (CANON):

-Plagueis really is Sidious' master, he's not something Sidious made up just to dupe Anakin.
-Sidious was still Plagueis' apprentice several years after he was appointed as Naboo senator. It is not clear if Plagueis lives until the events of TPM as is the case in DP novel.
-Plaguies once remarked that "the Force can strike back". Sidious ultimate goal is to make certain that the Force could not strike back.
-Related to the point above, Sidious seeks to use the power of the dark side to reshape reality itself, to fashion his own universe. He remarked that he wants influence of the ultimate sort, not just mere immortality like Plagueis.
-Plagueis' species is not mentioned.
-Plagueis' end is not elaborated. Sidious only remarked that Plagueis could not foreseen his apprentice becoming an Emperor.
-Tarkin studied Darth Plagueis.
-Vader studied Darth Plagueis.
-Palpatine ramarks Plagueis giving him "posthumous" credit of been truly great and wise Sith Lord and strategian.

 

Wondeful.

Doesn't change/affect anything I said.

 

But he isn't. He is a Sith.

And he didn't have the power. Thats the......irony with the Sith goal - they can't achieve but the Jedi can.

 

Yes it does. It changes your belief in lying Palpatine using Darth Plagueis false story to lure Anakin to the Dark side into. Clever Palparine who felt a moment to tell the truth to Anakin about what most powerfull real Sith Lord, Plagueis, was able to do, and this was knowledge to even save those he cared about from dying. Those he cared about, meaning Plagueis to had a soul and had people he liked and had Superior traits that Anakin can find on a Dark side.
Though Palpatine underestimated how really difficult is to acheive what Plagueis did.

 

Exactly. His name is irrelevant. And he hasn't a canon species nor personality. They could've made Snoke be Plagueis and designed him any way they like. And then all they need to do is reveal him as the being that created Darth Vader and who trained the Emperor. The audience that doesn't know the name, will immediately understand the importance.

Again - Maul wasn't a Sith. Anyone can leave the Sith and become something else.
And no, he couldn't achieve real immortality. But he could "cheat death", which is different.

 

From the Revenge of the Sith Script:
222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT

On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...

QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

OBI-WAN: Training??

YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon? But, how could he accomplish this?

YODA: The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills, he studied. How to commune with him. I will teach you.

OBI-WAN: I will be able to talk with him?

YODA: How to join the Force, he will train you. Your consciousness you will retain, when one with the Force. Even your physical self, perhaps.


Thes exchanges are susposed to tell us that Qui-Gon ist he one who figured out how to cheat death by retaining his consciousness after death. In interviews (probably on the DVD's) Lucas has talked about how the secret to this selflessness, something that is completely unknown and unthinkable to a Sith. So while the Sith want immortality, they can't achieve it.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017, Original Post Date: May 18, 2017 ---

No, Maul coming back was one of hte lamest things in the clone wars series.

No Plagueis doesn't have reaosn to do that, and if they bring him back they'd ahve to spend time explaining - who he is, what happened to him, why hes a big deal, why he isn't a Sith, how he is different from his old sith self, why he went away instead of wanting revenge against Palpatine etc.... For very little pay off.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017 ---

I alread said I didn't read the Tarkin book and thats fine, he isn't lying about his existence. Congratulations you proved something that wasn't in dispute.

Plagueis didn't figure out how to cheat death, at least for himself and its questionable if he could stop others from dying.

 

it's nice to see such a passionate defense of star wars canon, but we need to be clear about a few things..

it's canon that Palpatine SAID to Anakin that DP could keep people from dying
it's canon that Palpatine SAID to Anakin that he killed his master DP

at that point, it was not canon that DP could keep people from dying or that Palpatine had killed his master... just canon that he had said it.

example:-

After A New Hope was released, it was canon that Obi-wan said..

we had no reason to suspect he was telling Luke a big fat Jedi perspective lie.

Darth Plagueis being alive or dead will not be canon until there is actual canon material confirming one of those 2 things. (i'm fully aware that there are random comments from folk like Pablo Hidalgo that kind of poke towards DP being dead... but it aint canon)


I think that it's a very good shout that Palpatine could have been aware of Qui-gon's achievement, and was hoping to learn how to do it... irrespective of what his former master had accomplished. it's certainly an interesting idea.

anything is possible at this point

 

Again - cheating death doesn't = immortality. If you cut off Plagueis head, he'd be dead. This is about surviving what should be fatal injuries - a bit like what Maul did! It's not about becoming a spirit but keeping your body going.

Plagueis would've been betrayed by the Sith order, by being "killed" he was no longer a Sith. And in his exile, whilst healing, he would've likely gone in a different direction. The DP novel is full of stuff about Plagueis that suggests he had a different ideology/take on things than Sidious. In the ROTS novel, Dooku talks about commanding a Sith army - which shows how different Sith can go against the normal rules of the order. Plagueis could've had ideas that essentially went against the Sith ways and thus he created his own group.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017, Original Post Date: May 18, 2017 ---

The point about the DP debate isn't about what is or isn't canon - but what could be made to be true.
Without contradiction, they could easily have it be that Plagueis did create Anakin & did cheat death.
In doing so they'd create a very poetic and satisfactory thread that connects 1-9.

 

But cheating death in the way Anakin is clearly within their reach and easy for people in the Star Wars Universe to do.

We are told - only 1 has achieved it. We are then told who the one is.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017, Original Post Date: May 18, 2017 ---

It appears obvious to me that Snoke had an attempt on his life and or survived major damage to his body. This mirrors Vader and Palpatine and represents that he also recovered from a near death experience..[/QUOTE]

actually - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Snoke - "Snoke's final appearance was based in part of the horror movies of Hammer Films, the conception being that Snoke was rather handsome in his younger days, but was consumed and twisted by the dark side as he became more powerful.[4]"

 

Regarding the one who achieved immortality, there is a leap in logic to presume that Sheev knew of Qui-Gon's achievement. We shouldn't confuse the voice of a character with the voice of the narrator.

 

I just simply hate the idea that Snoke is some ancient Dark Side being that has been chilling out in the UR's. It's just horribly convenient and tacked on. I'd be ok with him not being Plagueis if he somehow ties into the story in a way that makes sense, is satisfying and doesn't contradict what has come before. I am yet however to hear a decent theory.

 

NOWHERE does it reveal that Palpatine is referring to Qui Gon. Nor is it canon that being a "Force ghost" is akin to "cheating death." You're still dead. I think it's pretty clear he's referring to Plagueis. Now, whether he was revealing truth or using lies to sway Anakin, that's a different debate. But it's pretty clear from ROTS and the Tarkin novel that it's capital-C Canon that Palgueis existed, that he was Palpatine's master, that he was a Sith, his species is never named, he SAYS the Force can strike back (but that's just DP talking; we don't know if it's true), and that he was very interested in finding a way to cheat death. Whether he ever did or not is not Canon. It's just speculative.

 

You're digressing. If you can't stand the idea of Plaguies connecting to the sequels that's totally fine. I'm simply saying it's not unreasonable or hard to explain to newer audiences AT ALL.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm pointing out that he is designed to be consumed by the darkside, not scared.

And of course they CAN explain all that, but why? Its not a big enough releave that casual fans will react to it. Its a lot of explainatino with little pay off.

Its in the movie.

Not saying the stuff in bold isn't canon. However it is also canon that only 1 person figured it out, and it was Qui-Gon.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017, Original Post Date: May 18, 2017 ---

and there is this: https://moviepilot.com/p/jj-abrams-debunks-snoke-theory-star-wars-8/4068300

Abrams says Plagueis isn't mentioned in TFA. Serkis says Snoke is just Snoke, a new addition to the story line. Hidalgo says that Plagueis could sotp those he loved form dying but not himself, he was killed by his apprentice.