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3 Reasons only Ben Solo can successfully re-start the Jedi Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by techsteveo, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    1. He's the only person that we know of that has had extensive training from Luke Skywalker. Despite Rey having the books, it will be extremely difficult for her, especially since she has no wisdom and has not experienced true failure.

    2. He's the only person that has fallen to the dark side. The importance of teaching about FAILURE sets this up perfectly. He would be the only living force user that has made the mistake and returned. He would have the knowledge and insight that could prevent future Jedi from falling.

    3. It's the only true way he can redeem himself for destroying Luke's Jedi. There really is no reason to see Kylo Ren redeemed. Love for Rey is not good enough. His mother is no longer in the mix. Only his turning on the First Order, defeating them, and helping Rey re-build the Jedi Order would be enough.

    What would you think if this is how Ben Solo ended up? Restarting the Jedi Order with Rey at his side?
     
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  2. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    According to Yoda Rey already knows everything for being a Jedi. But Kylo doesn't seem to be much of trained Jedi too. It actually feels like that his encounter with Rey and later the encounter with Snoke's guards were his first real fights.

    That would actually be very helpful for future generations of Jedi.

    There are many ways to redeem Kylo Ren. His mother (even though Carrie Fisher is dead) is still in the mix btw.
     
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  5. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Rey already knows enough for her. Not to start the Jedi Order back. Perhaps she could. But starting the new Jedi with nothing but ancient texts would be very very difficult. Like starting a business with nothing but some how-to manuals.

    I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts here. I don't think Leia is in the mix. They won't re-cast. Heck, Snoke never even mentioned her. He always referred to him being like his father. Poe and Finn never acknowledge Kylo being Leia's son. Only Luke, Leia and Han have ever had a conversation regarding Ben being Kylo.
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i think Leia is in until we know 100% for sure that she isn't.
    there are a number of ways they can handle her presence (and/or lack thereof) in ix.

    interesting side note: in the original screenplay for TFA, Snoke does mention Leia and it provokes Ben to change the subject (whereas he's "okay" with Snoke talking about Han). also, Han's original line on the bride was "your mother misses you", which was changed to "we miss you". so it seems like there is an intention there (or was) for Leia's relationship with Ben to be a kep point. also, ix was supposed to be Leia's movie (as TFA was Han's, and TLJ was Luke's). while obviously they've had to rewrite the script, that doesn't mean Leia (and her relationship with Ben) won't still be prominent.

    i agree that the first two points make for compelling reasons for Ben to help rebuild the Jedi. disagree with the third. seeing as Ben's problems partly stem of his sense of things he "must" do, i think it's imperative that his redemption is founded on things he will choose to do. and while i can see him maybe willing to be a teacher in some sense (because of point number two), i feel doubtful that he would want to specifically raise the Jedi. his feelings could certainly change, but at the moment i don't see him making the leap from "let it all die" to "let's rebuild the Jedi". i think, even redeemed, he will always walk somewhere in the middle.
     
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  7. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    While there is still chance that Kylo will be redeemed (as slim as it is, in my eyes), I don't think he will nor should have anything to do with the Jedi.

    And, while she has the books for guidance, I don't see Rey building a firmly structured/formal Jedi school as it was in the past. She will explore her own abilities in war time and if she finds other Force sensitives, it's more likely she will explore and possibly teach things that they need (defense being the primary thing) than, let's say, meditation. In fact, I really hope that Jedi institution becomes the thing of the past. I will forever advocate for Jedi as wandering samurai, learning, teaching and helping on the move.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    THIS. absolutely this.
     
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  9. High General Kenobi

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    But what he did isn't as much "failure" as, well, achieving to become one of the worst living beings in the Galaxy.

    Really, I don't want Kylo Ren to redeem at all, but if he does, no, he shouldn't bring the Jedi order back at all.

    This would be akin to "3 Reasons only Hitler can successfully re-start World Peace"
     
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  10. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Especially because being on the move would prevent the circumstances in which they would (once again) attach themselves to a political entity. And, if they build connections, they would be personal. So, they can connect to people, but remain apart from the interests.
     
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  11. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Would this not lead to more Dark Side users? The whole point of the Jedi teachings is to teach the discipline needed to control the force and maintain balance. Without that teaching, we will have chaos. Imagine one day when Broom Boy realizes he can force choke his stable master. I think there needs to be a Jedi Order, but not one that gets corrupted like the one in the Prequels. The reason they failed is their own arrogance. I can see the new Jedi being left to live on their own, no formal institution, but fight together when needed.

    The one thing Ben Solo COULD teach new force users that nobody but the ghost of Anakin could is how to resist the dark side. How he failed and how not to become him. This is a dynamic we've never seen.
     
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  12. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I think that every institution eventually gets corrupted if you just wait long enough. I just propose a different way of doing things. When your "Order" is constantly on the move, you are forced (pun intended) to change and adapt to different people, circumstances, points of view. I think it actually reduces the chances of more fallen Jedi.

    And Kylo still doesn't know how to resist the Dark Side, so... we'll see. And, even if he learns eventually, I don't want him anywhere near the Jedi Order. That's just how I feel.
     
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  13. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Klyo deserves redemption for the sake of legacy of Leia and Han.
    We need to honor Star Wars legacy in all its aspects and this is one of them.

    But not before he receives catharsis trough the only thing he understands, proper kick of his butt by Rey which will almost certainly happen.

    Than for the first time in his life he should became actually aware what he has done (including some of his fans) ,confess his sins in front of Rey, and than under the surrender terms sign separate requests for re-admission to Skywalker - Solo familly ,Jedi order, and to human race.
     
    #13 McDiarmid, Apr 23, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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  14. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I think he has to save Rey and the Rebels from Hux and the First Order. It's the only way I can see him being redeemed. Usually it's by sacrificing himself like Vader did. This time, I'd like to see him live. If you think about it, he has nobody to fear anymore. Nobody to please but himself. No master to keep him down. He's free to do whatever he pleases. I just think he's the best qualified to restart the Jedi and rebuild what he destroyed, which would be part of his redemption path.
     
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  15. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I have to disagree on all points.

    1- Yoda- she has everything she needs from those books.

    2- She tasted the Dark Side she was tempted to the Dark Side and refused it in the Throne Room. That moment where she was forced to chose was the result of a ridiculous failure in judgement. Where she believed she could save Kylo and "do what Luke would not." Which Luke described as the laughable "take on the whole 1st Order with a laser sword.

    3- Can he be redeemed maybe. But people are still somehow not getting that Kylo is the Big Bad Guy. He always was even before frame one of TFA.
     
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  16. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    So here’s my take...

    1. Yoda says “lose Rey we must not”. This is after she just left with the books. He also says “there’s nothing in that library that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess”. Because she has the library and has the discipline and compassion to be a great Jedi, but she isn’t fully trained by any stretch. He tells this to Luke because he wants him to help her.

    2. Are you trying to say this was her failure? Her judgement of Kylo? That’s not much considering she’s young a nieve and new at reading force visions. I still think the bigger failure of turning to the Dark side by joining an evil master like Snoke, and potentially overcoming that failure would be a better lesson for new Jedi to learn.

    3. The Big Bad guy was Darth Vader and he was redeemed at the end. The same can happen to Kylo with the added twist that he lives and returns to become Ben Solo again. Imagine if Vader didn’t die and returned with Luke.
     
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  17. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    I'll keep it short and simple.

    Kylo dies. Circle wipe & roll credits.
     
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  18. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Interesting ideas! Here's my rebuttal though. WARNING MAJOR REBELS SPOILERS!!!!!

    The Knights of Ren are still most likely out there, but I get your point. HOWEVER! There are two people out there that have more experience than even Ben. Ezra Bridger and Ahsoka Tano.

    You're right, and that's an important side to have. But not a necessary one. Ezra has been tempted by the Dark Side too. He was open to learning its secrets and its ways. He encountered multiple Dark Side users. He would be able to preach about the dangers of the Dark Side and be far more mature about it than Ben.

    Again a great point. But thematically, death would be fine for him too. In TFA we saw Kylo try to imitate Vader in every way he could. In TLJ, we see him try to reject everything about his history and past. Sacrificing himself for Rey in a way that allows her to build a new Jedi order might be the best completion of his arcs throughout the movies. He goes out like Vader but his death is starting something unburdened by the teachings of the flawed Jedi Order. Something new.

    I think it'd be Rey with Ben at her side! ;) But I don't hate the idea and this is me being more of a Devil's Advocate than anything else.
     
  19. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Almost perfect.
     
    #19 McDiarmid, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I like the idea, I see problems arising very quickly though. How can someone tell a Jedi from a Sith or dark force user? Why would ordinary people trust a Jedi's judgment if there's no governing body, or no way to fact check? The only way to defend against this is through having an institution (as much as I agree they mostly suck, we don't have an alternative in the real world, doubt SW will figure it out) and someone for Jedi to answer to, and thus a power to root out those who corrupt their teachings.

    Unless if the galaxy becomes ruled by the law of the jungle... might makes right. So force users are powerful, all "normal's" better listen to them or fear their wrath. That doesn't strike me as something Rey would want though. It would be an interesting progression to see her go through those growing an learning pains though. Even seeing how governments try and figure it out.

    As for Kylo.... I hope he doesn't die. We've seen that already in Vader. I'd like to see him live and suffer from all of what he's done. There's a book series that reminded me of SW... Star of the Guardians by Margaret Weiss... where her "Vader" stand in turns to good and tries to redeem himself. I'd like to see that on screen.
     
    #20 Sparafucile, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2018
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