THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

The level of success of the trilogy is debatable because that is something which is subjective. However the fact that Star Wars has been going steadily downhill financially in all departments since E7 is not debatable.

Hear me now and believe me later: They are not expecting E9 to outperform E8 financially, despite the historical numbers where the final chapter does better than the middle chapter of a trilogy. The downward trend will continue and people at Disney are concerned.

 

Why did they ask Rian Johnson to direct Episode 9 before asking JJ after the firing of CT if this is true? I'm pretty sure RJ would be directing Episode 9 had he not commented to directing Knives Out.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2019 ---

Since you're being hypothetical about Episode 9 doing less than 8, what if Episode 9 out performs Episode 8? What will be your excuse?

 

I can't speak about what Disney expects from IX.... I do think they aren't as confident as they were about 14 months ago (verging on over confidence). I think they realize they can't just slap the title STAR WARS on something and expect it to do well (see Solo and the drop in toy sales as evidence). I hope IX is amazing and makes us forget the controversy surrounding VIII. I hope the Mandalorian is a kick ass show and the same goes for the Rogue One spin off. Time will tell.

As for Rian Johnson, I think they actually did not expect the backlash. I think they really thought the fans were gonna truly love the film. Thus they offered him a chance to do IX. I don't know that I'd read too much into that. It really could have been a case of KK simply offering it to him even though she already knew he would say no.

Having said that, what we do know is that Bob Iger failed to make mention of Johnson's trilogy in any way back in Sept/Oct. My personal feeling is that I think he'd be far better a. having either a one shot film or a trilogy that doesn't involve taking the "baton" from a previous director and b. doing a film/trilogy that does not involve the OT characters. He might be great doing a film that would be like a noir and involve the criminal underworld.

Having said that, I think RJ is probably not going to get his trilogy. I'm not so confident that I'm willing to bet on it, but I REALLY can't see it happening at this point. And perhaps that is best for all involved.

 

We also know that around this same time Rian Johnson confirmed he was still working on his Star Wars project. That was right before there was a major bidding war for his next film that was about to start production.

It's difficult to believe anything has changedsince October. Based on the talent flocking to his project and the praise he's received from his peers it doesn't seem like Disney is scared of sticking with someone who has proven he can deliver.

 

I don't know anything about the "bidding war" for his next project, so I can't comment on that. Although I'm not sure that makes a difference, as, from what I gather, is a very different film than a tent pole project like Star Wars. I do know Iger left him out when talking about the future. Why? Was it a simple mistake? If so then so be it. I don't have anything at stake if Johnson DOES do a trilogy or doesn't myself. In a way I am curious to see what he could do without the baggage of following up TFA and moving to a different part of the time line.

But I do find it odd that he was not mentioned and Iger said things were slowing down. Why slow down if all is right in the Star Wars world? Why leave off Johnson if, and I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth (but I apologize if I am), Johnson did a remarkable job and Disney (specifically Bob) is happy with TLJ?

As for his new project, I hope it does well and turns out as good as some people swear it is (how they know that is beyond me when I don't think we've seen any footage so far). As for talent flocking to it, again, I'll wait to judge it when I see it. I LOVE the Cohen brothers (an example) and had high hopes for both "Intolerable Cruelty" and "Ladykillers." Great talent in both films. However, I was highly disappointed in the final product when it came to both films. I was, for a while, worried that both films had killed them. Then they came out with "Burn After Reading" (which I loved) and "No Country For Old Men" and I knew they were back. So, I guess that's a roundabout way of saying I'll wait and see. I don't have it out for the guy just because I dislike TLJ, and I truly hope his next film is a smashing success.

 

See this is where I disagree because the facts out there doesn't support it. Disney isn't going to fire a director from a project that was easy to work with on a film that made stupid amounts of money even though it didn't hit the over aggressive numbers of some people's estimates. People can over estimate, it happens all the time. Just because Bob didn't mention anything bout his trilogy doesn't meant it's not going to happen. There literally was no new information to give. During that spech Rian was in the middle of filming Knives Out (so obviously Rian isn't working on his trilogy). Knives Out just finished filming towards the end of this past December and the movie comes out in November of this year.

Only thing Bob Iger could say is a statement saying "We're happy how well TLJ performed and Rian is still going to work on the new trilogy once he's done with his current project. More details will follow at a later date." Which is pretty redundant from what they already told us. We're still several years away from Rian's trilogy being released anyways. Not sure why people are acting like it was coming out in 2020 or something? I doubt he has a script written for it or if he does it's early in first draft with basic ideas at best. Honestly what more information can they realistically give us about RJ Trilogy?

The only reason why Bob mention The Mandorlorian because it ways already in production and that show is going to be one of the key features of the new Disney steaming service which is suppose to release later this years but they haven't yet mentioned anything about it during the Q1 earnings that just happen the other day. The mention of the B&W trilogy made sense because they just got done filming GOT (or close to it) and their more than likely starting to write their new trilogy which i'm assuming will come out before RJ Trilogy anyways.

If we don't hear nothing about it in April, then it's safe to say RJ trilogy may be in trouble but I'm sure (hoping) we'll hear something about it by then because that would be during his promotional run of Knives Out. Until we hear something different in April, i'm willing to bet my next pay check that his RJ Trilogy is fine.

BTW, RJ new movie is an original noir type of movie staring Daniel Craig so here is your chance to see what he can do with that style.

 

And this is where good people can agree to disagree. I am saying that it is weird he left off RJ. Didn't mention it at all. This isn't a secret project. It was announced (a bit too early in my estimation but whatever). All he had to do is what he did with the GOT guys. There is a series of films by the GOT guys, and we have a trilogy in the very early stages of creation by writer/director Rian Johnson. Easy. It doesn't put any pressure on him at all. Heck the GOT guys were done with filming but certainly NOT with post production (perhaps the stage where the true magic happens depending on who you ask) and he mentioned them.

Look it may be that his trilogy is a go right now. That doesn't mean it will see the light of day. Unless he has a script written already, and even then, TONS of films get abandoned for various reasons. Let's see what happens. Like I said earlier, I think he would be great without the pressure of following up the mess that is TFA, and the baggage of the OT characters. I just don't think Bob left his name out as an accident nor do I think it was left out to spare him pressure or what not. I think he did that on purpose. But if I'm wrong, I'll give you your paycheck in April.

And I am looking forward to Knives Out, especially knowing that it is a noir.

 

I said hear me now and believe me later (which, for some reason, you deleted out of my post when you quoted it). I am not going to provide a source or reasoning because, at this point, I don't particularly care if anyone believes the statement. I am just making sure I get it out there.

That is nothing more than an unconfirmed rumor from anonymous sources. Rian Johnson himself said (on the record) about directing Episode 9: "It was never in the cards. It was always the plan for me to do (Episode 8), and then hand it off to the next director, whoever that was going to be."

Regardless, even if you believe the rumor that he was offered E9, that offer was made before E8 came out and LFL saw the long term results of that debacle.

Excuse for what? I am not involved in the production of any of these movies, so I am not entirely sure what you mean by that question.

Amen to those things.

I think - and this part is just my personal speculation - they are very scared of releasing a Star Wars movie that has nothing to do with the original trilogy in terms of characters, timeframes, etc. As you say, they have recently learned the painful lesson that you can't just slap "Star Wars" on something and expect profits to just roll in.

Yousa point is well said!

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2019 ---

Yes Iger could have said that - but he didn't. Here is what he said:

J.J. [Abrams] is busy making [Episode] IX. We have creative entities, including [Game of Thrones creators David] Benioff and [D.B.] Weiss, who are developing sagas of their own, which we haven't been specific about. And we are just at the point where we're going to start making decisions about what comes next after J.J.'s."

It is not a matter of giving information, it is a matter of acknowledging it still exists. In Iger's above quote, you notice how he is going over the projects in the pipeline. There's obviously no new info there, but he mentioned Episode 9 and he mentioned Benioff/Weiss. If Disney was as happy with Johnson as some in here think they are, he would've been mentioned in that statement.

 

I think that the W&B Trilogy and Rian Johnson's trilogy will both happen. Chagrined as I am about the prospects of Rian Johnson lending his...."comedic style" and "methods of narrative subversion" to more Star Wars films, I think people may be reading to deep into something as miniscule as Bob Iger not mentioning it in passing during an interview. He was probably just naming all of the projects he could off the top of his head to assure people that projects were still in development despite the "slowing down" maneuver they'll be attempting from here on out.

It would be irrational and baseless for me to assume that Johnson's trilogy is cancelled.

Moreover, all of this discussion about "the financial success" of Star Wars means very little outside of a means of justifying Disney/LFL's decisions. That doesn't make them good decisions for the quality of the story, and how they will age. I know people believe that financial success of a product means that a franchise is in a good place, but that isn't true in the slightest.

My best friend is a longtime fan of the Transformers franchise---even has a first run G1 Megatron mint in the box, and Transformers: The Movie on LaserDisc. You'd be hard-pressed to find a bigger fan than him. Now, if I walked up to him and told him that no matter how much he hates the Michael Bay films, that "Transformers is fine and Paramount has a strong record of steering brands in the right direction. What the fans think is ultimately irrelevant compared to how the films perform financially", do you know what his response is likely to be?

He'd probably say that the financial health of a franchise means nothing if it compromises the franchise's creative integrity.

Whatever measures Disney/LFL took to make Star Wars financially lucrative has come at the creative cost of the films. They rehashed the OT not only to play things safe and get a guaranteed return on the investment, but also to try and re-package the OT under a new name for the sought-after Chinese markets. Most of these efforts paid off, and they've made serious bank off of the majority of their decisions. But the byproduct of that decision has creatively hurt the Sequel Trilogy. It has made them hollow, superficial, cynical remakes of the OT that take the series backwards instead of forwards....a sad irony considering this new string of films is dubbed THE SEQUEL TRILOGY. The need to pander to empty nostalgia is infecting the brand on all fronts, locking the supplementary materials like books, novels, TV shows, animated projects and video games in a creative chokehold by setting almost everything in either the OT, or its clone, the ST. It has restrained the creative output of authors, comic book artists, showrunners to where Star Wars as a whole almost entirely exists to simply regurgitate Rebels, Stormtroopers, TIE Fighters and X-Wings until the once-novel imagery of the OT is seared into the retnas of the Star Wars fans whether they want it or not. Nothing else exists, no other era exists, and no other aspect of Star Wars exists. The universe now feels smaller than ever than it ever did under George Lucas, thanks to Disney/LFL's incessant need to cage the majority of stories in a certain era, or a carbon copy of that era.

And the funniest thing is that this approach is going to cause hastily cobbled-together products like the ST movies age poorer because of it. Further generations are going to marathon Star Wars in its entirety, and once they get past the Lucas-made films and arrive at the Sequel Trilogy, they're going to notice the creativity and narrative progression come to a complete stop. And they'll wonder what happened behind the scenes to make the next Star Wars trilogy like this...only to do the research and find out that it was Disney/LFL's insatiable need to preserve guaranteed financial returns.

That will be the legacy of the Sequel Trilogy and everything else made under Disney/LFL. Products that were compromised creatively to make money.

Funnily enough, celebrated film critic Roger Ebert gave The Phantom Menace a 3.5/4, and gave Revenge of the Sith a 3.5./4 as well.

Amusing, considering pro-TLJ sycophants like Just Write and Patrick Wilhems feverish cite Roger Ebert as the be-all, end-all film critic.

This.

I probably would've never fled into the open embrace of the EU's vast continuity if Disney/LFL had provided fans with worthwhile supplementary material. They literally had the resources and access to talent that the previous folks at Lucasfilm Publishing and Dark Horse could only dream of, the means to fashion a New Canon that absolutely dwarfed the size, scale, scope, and creativity of the Expanded Universe.

Instead, they opted to regurgitate a bunch of throwaway OT-laden one-shot stories. And now, the sales for all published works are dropping because of it.

Good riddance.

 

FWIW, my take on financial success is that it is usually a good indicator of future direction when it comes to corporations. If a certain corporate strategy is making a lot of money, they are going to stick to that strategy. If they are not happy with the amount of money they are making, they are going to change gears.

Robert Iger made it quite clear that with respect to Star Wars, Disney is changing gears. That speaks volumes as to how they feel about Star Wars' current financial success (or lack thereof).

 

It seems Disney is happy with how things are going in the US. Disney's main priority now is Disney+ and it's no surprise they're going back to eras we already know. The film industry is a different beast and that old era isn't interesting to Asian markets who don't have a history with the legacy characters. I'll buy the idea that there's "financial issues" when it's not angry Star Wars fans trying to make the case. It doesn't seem like anyone in the industry seems to think there's an issue. Disney's track-record speaks for itself.

 

How about the CEO of Disney? Is that a good enough source for you? Iger himself admitted mistakes were made and they are going to change course. You think they're happy that their 4th installment of Star Wars lost money..??? You can blame it on Asia all you want but that does nothing to change the fact that movie revenues and merchandising revenues are going down fast and there's no indication that is going to change anytime soon.

You don't change course when things are going well. You don't have the CEO announce a "slow down" for a property which is doing fine. The MCU releases 3 times as many movies as Star Wars and no one is talking about a "slow down" for them.

 

They are? I'm being serious here, but what makes you think Iger is happy with how things are going in the U.S.? He came out what, 4 months ago and said there will be a "slowdown" in Star Wars. In this article Iger is quoted "too much, too fast." But everything is good? Nothing to see here. Okay. Not the way I interpreted it, but okay.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/fix-star-wars-fatigue-isnt-making-movies-1145847 I agree with this story in that they recognize there is something wrong. Four films. Four films following a formula and the box office drops for each one. So, assuming there is not a problem (one which you are reluctant to acknowledge exists, but Bob Iger himself says DOES exist), then why does he say there needs to be a slowdown? If Solo was a flop for its own unique reasons, then why slow down? Just because?

"That old era isn't interesting to Asian markets who don't have a history with the legacy characters." Source for this? I'm not sure I've seen ANYONE say why the ST and two one off films have flopped in China. Again, I'm truly interested in that as I've spent some time in China and would love to know why a film like Star Wars does poor while Aquaman (a film I enjoyed but didn't expect to be a juggernaut overseas) does well. How much familiarity did they have with Aquaman? How much familiarity did they have with Ironman? Why must the Chinese audience have familiarity with characters in order for Star Wars to succeed but not for other film franchises to succeed? I'm genuinely asking as I just don't get it.

I do think there is a problem with the franchise. The problem isn't too much too quick. The problem is poor quality. The problem is a series of films which, despite the fact we were told different, don't necessarily build on each other (I enjoyed Solo myself but was shocked on opening weekend by how empty the cinema was and still don't understand why that film was ever made).

 

You don't have to have a familiarity with Aquaman to watch Aquaman. All four of the Disney Star Wars films are build on the backstory of a six episode saga film that wasn't even allowed to be released in some parts or the world. I understand the appeal of superheros and I understand why people who don't have a history with Han Solo don't really care where he came from.

For Disney to keep pumping out these films there has to be a market outside the United States. The films that were rumored to be in the works were Boba Fett and Obi-Wan. These films are facing an uphill climb for the same reasons Solo suffered.

Again, I'm not surprised you disagree that's there's a problem with the franchise. This is a hate thread after-all. Most people who have seen the new Star Wars films like them.

As I said...

Star Wars is going to be fine. It's a strong brand and most people aren't up in arms. The brand survived Attack of the Clones. It'll survive Solo. Disney's track record speaks for itself.

 

I think episode IX will be a watershed moment for fans and the fandom. If IX surpasses TLJ's 1.3 billion most peoples worries over the state of SW will be abated, and I honestly think that's what much of this is, fan concern. It's not fans necessarily wanting SW to fail, it's the impression, however anecdotal, that it is failing. One "bad" movie does not make a franchise bad, with the bomb of Solo it's no longer one movie anymore (at least for those who see TLJ failing to meet the projected 1.6 and not meeting their approval/standards) but the picture is still blurry... difficult to see is the future.

I think if IX misses the 1.3 billion mark, there will be an exodus. People like winners, and at that point SW will look to some like a sinking ship, or at least one that's floundering. Momentum tends to carry things to greatness or to disaster... it's hard to simply maintain mediocrity, mostly because people do not like mediocrity. I think if IX fails to meet TLJ's financial mark, we'll be getting a lot more "real fan" posts, whether that's fair or not is up to you.

I see things a bit differently. I don't think SW's success after TFA was a sustainable one. It could be successfully argued that TLJ suffered from TFA's success based on expectation to measure up to that movie's financial numbers. In that same way, IX could suffer. By pretty much any metric beyond Disney, anything making anywhere close to a billion is a success, but Disney with SW and its Marvel movies has risen expectations to what could be an unattainable bench mark.

Still, many fans love the current SW, more are mixed in one way or another, but generally accepting for now, and others dislike it. Failures, perceived or otherwise will likely shave off the middle and majority of fans who stand in the mixed and accepting, simply because the numbers will seem to give credence to those who disliked it. I don't think IX will meet TLJ's numbers, and I base that on a few things. Solo is a big one, the vocal minority another, but mostly it's because TLJ did not leave fans wanting more, in general. TLJ's biggest failure imo was its failure to create a buzz for IX. There's very little to look forward to, it felt like a conclusion. I don't believe the GA has a buzz over SW. That's relegated only to SW fan sites. Meanwhile movies like Endgame are widely speculated about.

So unless the marketing campaign is sensational, it will struggle to repeat the pattern of past trilogies. If it misses that pattern, even if by any other metric beyond Disney it would be considered a success, there will be a negative perception attached to it. This does not mean the death of SW, but it will no longer be walking above the competition. There's already a chink in the armor with Solo, and like the Green Goblin says to Spiderman in Toby's trilogy, the only thing people like more then a hero, is a hero to fail.

A lot hinges on IX, I felt Iger implied that in his statement to slow down after nine. If IX surpasses TLJ, I don't expect there to be much of a slow down despite what Iger said. However, I think Disney is simply realizing that TFA's success has simply moved the bar up so far for future projects that it is unsustainable. So as many others have stated one way or another that SW needs to build up the anticipation, the feel that these movies are events. IX does not feel like an event, with the lack of anticipation or lingering questions, and with it following on Solo's heels.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on this for today. I'm not a big fan of the ST so IX will be a hard sell for me regardless. A break after this trilogy might be a good idea, let the live action TV and such carry the brand for a bit before they start an alternate saga in 3-5 years.

 

You answered this question with your last post, so you're good.

As I stated before, Benioff/Weiss has finished with Game of Thrones, so it made sense to mention them. They are also hoping to bank on their Disney+ App and The Mandolorian is going to be one of the big draws to that app, so it make sense to mention that. Rian Johnson on the other hand is in the middle of movie project so any mention of his trilogy is irreverent because he hasn't work any materials for his trilogy yet, Benioff/Weiss more than likely has some ideas for their movie. Also Why didn't he mention the Cassian Andor series in that speech? I'm sure he knew about it since he announced it a month later after his first speech. Just because he didn't mention about a project doesn't mean it doesn't exist, because by your logic, the Cassian Andor series shouldn't exist. How about we wait until April before making assumptions based on personal and emotional feelings. If we don't hear anything by then, then I will agree with you that his project may be in trouble. I'm not even a big fan of ST like I was this time last year. I hate TFA more than TLJ in retrospect.

I'll be careful on saying that Asian markets don't like SW because majority of them do. Japan loves SW and they had special events and stuff that wasn't even offered in the States. The issue is that China doesn't like SW which is a huge movie market. Their just not into SW. Its not ingrained into their culture like it is in other parts of the world. I don't know too much about the Chinese culture but I heard that SW in general is confusing and possibly offensive to some extent (jedi/sith == yin/yang, etc). I'm sure someone who knows more about Chinese culture can chime in to give us specifics.

What I do know is that Star Wars was created in 1977, so the US and other parts of the world grew up with SW and SW became ingrained into pop culture. China on the other hand didn't have that luxury. Their first experience with All 6 SW movie was only in 2015 and they showed those movies before TFA. US and the majority of the world had 38+ years invested in SW with multiple generations vested into the series, China has maybe only maybe a few months vested in the series. They don't have a single generation that grew up with SW unlike the rest of the world. China was very poor during the time of the OT came out and many of the references in the movie doesn't connect to them. SW wasn't marketed to China back then. Look at the top 50 grossing movies in China, not a single SW movie cracks the top 50

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films_in_China

Transformers: Age of Extinction which was universally disliked among the US (this we all can probably agree on) sits as the 5th highest grossing Hollywood movie (14th overall.) SW is just not big in China. They have different tastes of movies and Superhero and robots movies are popular other there. SW wasn't marketed to China until Disney took over so if you blame the quality of ST for the reason why they didn't do well over there, than you have to assume that the quality of the OT and PT isn't that good either since they didn't crack the top 50 list either. I don't think the quality of ST is the reason why it did bad in China, China is just late to the SW game and doesn't have the same appeal like the rest of the world has for it. Why should they praise movie 7, 8 and 2 random spin off movies when they really didn't care about the first 6 movies? I wish Disney will just cut loose the Chinese market since they don't care about product. Focus on other areas where you can make up for the loss Chinese market.

 

I was quoting some one on that. I realize SW is popular in many places, including Japan. I just don't know why it has flopped in China the way it has. I'm not blaming the quality of the ST for why it is failing, as I think (although I might be wrong) the Fast and the Furious films are popular over there, and there is absolutely no way in hell I'm watching those pieces of poop. I don't think it is necessarily the quality of the films that has turned off the Chinese, nor do I think the Chinese are the determiners of film quality. I just find it interesting that, for whatever reason, the Disney SW films are flopping and yet Disney is apparently investing a ton of time in trying to get the Chinese to fall in love with Star Wars.

 

I guess they see the potential money that can be made because China has the ability to save or sink a franchise. Their one of the reasons why the Transformer movies stayed afloat. But i agree, I don't understand why they are trying so hard to cater to a market that don't care about their projects? China has a weird taste which doesn't determine what quality is and that's why I shrug off the TLJ haters arguments about TLJ and other SW movies that did bad in China, it doesn't mean nothing in the scope of things. Because by their logic Transformers: Age of Extinction would be a master piece. Like I said, I wish Disney will drop China and focus their efforts else where. They are 38+ years too late in the game to move the Chinese market with SW.