A reply to most of the TLJ negative criticism.

Redemption is not just a once in a lifetime battle such as Vaders.

Redemption is a constant battle against oneself. We see Lukes fall from grace and his redemption. Hes human. Hes imperfect. Hes old. Hes tired. Hes sick of history repeating itself. Hes sick of the stench of murder and death.

For one tiny moment...he sees his nephews heart becoming like Vader. He reaches out with his lightsabre.

He stops and desists. You cannot punish a man for thinking of commiting a crime. Especially a crime that would have saved countless millions lives.

Luke slipped. But he rose like a giant in the final battle and turned the tables on his nephew. Good and sacrifice always triumps.

I loved the film. I loved Luke. He was the same Luke. Just more grumpy.

My only negative of TLJ was how did Snoke get into Bens heart. He was a trained Jedi. He wud have known the dangers of the Sith and dark side.
How did Snoke get into Bens head and turn him so easily. What caused such anger?
Thats the weak point for me. We all know the events that took place for Anakin to flip.

I dont buy the whole...i want to follow granpas legacy and become a bigger and stronger baddie than him.

 

I think within your post lies the issue. What was the bar set at? For myself I expected something quite a bit better than the PT. I didn't dare expect the OT, but the PT fell way short of my expectations (the overall story was fine, the execution and acting was horrendous imo... in the ST I find it's mostly the execution). I did start a thread earlier regarding just this.

As someone who did not like TLJ at all I started a thread that asked the question... are we being fair to the creative team when judging them on canon, lore, ect... I think a lot of fans were expecting this SW trilogy to be treated like LOTR, which got 2-3 years of pre-production to make sure there were no loose ends to piss fans off. In this regard TLJ fell way short imo. I shudder when I hear people refer to this as a masterpiece. I think much like the PT, fans will come to terms on most of the issues in TLJ, maybe Ep9 will help too. Maybe fans should just lower expectations and standards, especially considering we'll be getting a SW movie every year.

 

Don't worry folks! It will all be explained in a $50.00 book!

 

Well, I think that’s the whole thing. The bar is different for everyone, but the prequels started off on a weak note with The Phantom Menace, considered by many to be the worst of the entire franchise. With this trilogy, The Force Awakens was generally well-liked by most—even if some of the fans didn’t like how similar it was to A New Hope. But this trilogy also had the involvement of the original heroes and continued that story, which I think has been a major plus for it in terms of its success.

That being said, the expectations are, of course, going to be higher on these films than they are the prequels. I surely don’t expect anything as good as or better than the originals in terms of quality, but I know a lot of people that, unfortunately, did have those expectations and then were pissed off that it didn’t meet or exceed them.

But I agree with you 100% that more time should’ve been taken with these films. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Star Wars may be unstoppable now, but it’s inevitably going to suffer from franchise fatigue at some point or another. If it continues with the Skywalker saga past Episode IX and continues to have new films every year, it will burn out a lot faster. Because Star Wars is a franchise that means so much to people, I think it’s in everyone’s best interest to wait a few years in between every film—more time to perfect them and avoid pissing fans off, more anticipation built, more money made, and it lessens the chances of franchise fatigue.

I’m not saying franchise fatigue was the issue with The Last Jedi, but I do think that, in some ways, they rushed it. I still don’t know why they didn’t have a plan for certain things earlier on in this trilogy. I get the impression that JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson did not communicate about everything with these films. For example, I think Rian implied that he assumed he had come to the same conclusion as JJ on Rey’s parentage because JJ hadn’t told him otherwise. And like you said, I think Episode IX may help fans to see The Last Jedi in a different light because it may explain why things needed to be the way they were in that film.

I do think the fans that are expecting something better than the originals need to stop getting pissed off when it doesn’t meet their expectations, which are unrealistically high, though.

 

For me my problems with TLJ has more to do with the setup, context of whatever you call it than the events themselves. Take the light rises to meet the dark line to explain Rey's sudden Force powers. To me not only does this come off as a cop out explanation but also leaves me with more questions. Like why did the Force choose Rey? Or did the light side of the Force cut it's self off when Like cut his self off? Where there no other light side users left after Luke cut his self off? I do have to say there are some things I just don't like such as the humor, Canto Night and the fact that it seems like a lot is explained in the Visual Dictionary than there should be.

 

It's pretty simple you see, when Luke cut himself of the force, the force fell asleep, it woke up around 10 years later and saw all the darkness in Kylo so it gave Rey all the light required to oppose him, it also put her on an accelerated subconscious jedi training program.
It didn't bother to oppose Snoke since they were old drinking buddies so he cut him some slack.

 

As explained elsewhere, the new films rehash older ones, especially OT, which is why they are disappointing. Many other problems, from plot holes to lack of character development, only make matters worse.

They need to get better writers to at least avoid these for the third film.

 

I mean the following response with respect. I do not intend neither mocking, nor sarcasm.
I only intend to show a rebounded perspective. If it does nothing for you; rock on, may the Force be with you!

The emperor supreme leader in the original sequel trilogy was the rising evil ruler of the universe. He was in rising to power when the film starts, and the series follows the heroes attempt to defend against and then overthrow him. The emperor supreme leader just wants to win and stay in power. That's all the motivation we need.​

Now, honestly, all I need out of either Snoke or Palpatine is that they're evil Lucifer-like characters inherently bent on totalitarian takeover to suit their design - whatever that may be...I'll imagine it as something like space Hitler to be their design. Everyone can imagine it however they want.
That's how myths work. I like all the backstory in the PT, but I liked the Emperor more when he was only defined by the OT because he was a representative token of a type of nightmare I could stuff anything into - anyone could. Everyone did. That's why it worked. Everyone just shoved their sense of powerful evil into him.
Once he was made a regular guy with a backstory, he actually lost a bit of power in my imagination's icons of evil collection because now when I think of the Emperor, I think of a wheezle senator with a political plan...well...I can relate to that. That's the reality of Hitler (dangerous, sure, but also pathetic in many ways), not the icon of Hitler (just f-ing terrifying!).
What was so bad ass about the Emperor was that he was like Jaws. You saw so little of him, and even when you did see him, you saw just a little bit while mostly covered, and even when you did see him well, you still didn't know what the hell he was about. He was a shark after souls and that was about it. I mean Jesus those teeth are horrifying!

The only "complaint" I have about Snoke was that he was too visible. Yes he was deformed, but he's right in my face. There's nothing for my imagination to do, and my imagination can always scare and creep me out far better than any imagery on screen can. Show just enough and then hide it again.
Snoke just looks like a really big old dude who had facial reconstructive surgery done in the quality circa early 1900's[warning: gross].
But I don't care that much because that may be true, but I could say the same for reactions over Jabba the Hutt as a kid.
I just stared at it; unsure what to think. It didn't make any sense to me. I understood what I was looking at, and the symbolism of it, but I didn't understand why that was what I was looking at. It just missed the mark for me as a visual token.
But it didn't kill anything for me. He's just the fat slob mobster slug who represents extreme decadence as if someone piled all 613 mitzvahs and the 10 commandments together and broke them all in one shot. Check!
Yay! It's Luke swinging from rope again! *popcorn numnumnumnum*

Snoke just is the devil of the ST, as the Emperor before him.
Why does he want to take over the galaxy? Because he's the evil guy and evil guys always want to rule the world with an iron fist soaked (or snoked) in the blood of baby ewoks who have been starved to death in their mother's arms and eaten by the evil lord while the mom watches.
Or something along those lines - fill in whatever you want.
Maybe in your imagination Snoke hangs out with carebears in his off time and treats them to a special hell he designed just for them where they repeatedly try to make him care and drain all of their power trying every day. Maybe that's his 8 AM morning coffee in the apocalyptic hell that he has brought upon this world.

There's basically three issues raised here. I'll address each in order.

Firstly, the "nobody" issue.
Even though you don't mind it; it's related to what you do mind, so I'll start with this.
Maybe she is somebody. Maybe she's not. We have no real idea because there's still another film.
In TFA it was about being hit blind-sided and we're supposed to all want to know who the hell this is and why she can do all this crap.
In LTJ , we're put on hold, because Rey is supposed to face her fear that she's nobody and therefore, in her mind, of no value.
It may be true. It may be a lie. No clue.
All that matters regarding Rey right now is that she could kick ass when needed before, but really can now that she's faced her fear of being alone...not alone with hope that one day she wouldn't be alone, but nope; that's all - you're absolutely and entirely alone. Deal.

So we got put on hold because first Rey needed to do the second act of the hero journey and face and overcome (or be scarred by - Anakin) her fear.
We ended up with just as much information as we did in ESB at this point in the series.

Luke is told by the untrustworthy evil guy in a cape that his father is this evil guy in a cape who cut off his arm, killed a guy he knew, and was capturing his friends, who wants him to hang out together and torture the galaxy.
Vader always missed the lessons from Mystery about not coming on too strong, and slowly working your negs in and not going for the big one right out of the gate, but well..Vader's a bit slow on the uptake with people skills, and besides, his fan broke in his helmet so he was overly hot and Vaders, like Trolls in Discworld, don't think well the hotter they get. Oh well. Better luck next ti - oh...right. Sorry.

Anyway...

Lucas had to be told (I think it was by Kasdan or Marcia) that someone Luke trusted needed to confirm that Vader was his Father because otherwise no one will believe it since Vader was the one who said it. So that's one of the first things they did in ROTJ; using both Obi Wan and Yoda to confirm it - just in case anyone had any doubts.

Here's what we have in the ST at the same point in the film series.
Rey has been told by the untrustworthy evil guy (sometimes in a cape; sometimes shirtless...sometimes hatted, other times not. He's like the green eggs and ham version of Vader costumes...also known as the typical look of any action figure on my floor as a kid at any given point...where's his helmet?)....sorry, off track...

Rey has been told by the untrustworthy periodically caped evil guy that she has no parents and that no one cares about her but him, and that she should hang out with the untrustworthy periodically caped evil guy who killed a guy she knew and who was his Dad (Oh, you killed your Dad? Yeah, let's hang and play ForceBox....psycho), and was capturing her friends.

The only big shift there is that Rey still has a hand.
And I gotta say, you gotta hand it to her for still having one. (yay! bad puns!)

Now on to the aptitude issue.
Honestly...all growing up I hated that Luke sucked so much by comparison to other heroes.
I mean, Hercules was a champ. Superman was too. Flash Gordon just waltzed around and saved every one of us. The Lone Ranger was unwavering in being better than everyone, and Zoro was the boss with flare and high quality swashbuckling.
Luke?
Eh. He's OK. (queue Tim Curry in drag)
Play the Jabba seen fight. Then youtube some old black and white Zoro fight[like this one].
Zoro's fights look cooler.

When TFA came on and she was beating the crap out of people, I actually (literally) sat up. THIS was a hero!
Finally! A Star Wars with some big and fast heroic action! Finally a Jedi hero (or whatever) who can actually kick butt right out of the gate!

Oh, how I've long waited for that. Struggling heroes are cool and all on the narration, but if 90% of their screen time is them trying to be good at fighting and only the final 10% is them actually being good at it; that's pretty underwhelming for me.

I never once cared where a character played by Bruce Lee learned his skills. I just said, "Right. Hero. Can fight. Check."
That's all I want out of a hero really.
About the last thing I wanted this time around, but was ready to accept anyway going in, was another struggling hero who I have to watch learn how to fight...again.

It's like watching Data evolve three times over if that had happened. Can I just see the final type doing more for once rather than hitting restart on the aptitude button every time?

I even prefer that she's inexplicably powerful. Hell, she's even surprised at her abilities up until this film.
She's like Rincewind in Discworld when Lord Vassenego empowers (without our knowledge) Rincewind's snapping to accomplish magic that Rincewind literally previously stated he did not poses right before he snaps. He just stares at his fingers perplexed and then just goes with it, though having no clue how that's working or what's going to exactly happen when he does it.
Hell, at one point Rincewind, the Discworld's most useless magician, caused the entire universe to restructure the fabric of space and time because he fell off of a cliff and because he had in his mind a spell that was one of the 8 spells which ran the universe and that 8th of the universe's formula didn't want Rincewind to die, the universe was restructured around him to allow him to live. But we don't know that at the time. We just know that he was falling, didn't want to fall to his death, and then the universe hiccuped after his thought and he was fine.

I also grew up watching things like Pale Rider. There's no explanation as to why this guy kicks butt. He just does.
Thank goodness that he does because if I had to watch Eastwood get better at gun fighting in every film just to see a gun fight, I probably wouldn't have watched westerns.

Same here. I want a swashbuckling movie and I want it Zoro level from the start. GO!

So I just can't agree here. I love unapologetic powerful heroes with zero explanation as to how they do it.
As a kid, I never once stopped and said, "Wait. How did Zoro get this good?", "Hold on. Where did Hercules train, exactly?", "One moment...who taught Superman how to be Superman?"
I know in the case of Superman, things have gone on to explain, etc.... but as a kid, that wasn't available. He was just Superman.

I also prefer the mystery of not knowing (or caring).
If they tell us more than "the force wants her to be strong" in the next movie, I'll be somewhat let down because it's just better filling that crap in on your own for the reverse reason that Jaws and the Emperor work better hardly seen and able to be filled in with your own imagination.

There's magic to the idea of an warrior enchanted by the universe itself, and it makes them very cool right away because they're basically superhuman right off.
YAY!

Kylo vs Rey vs Luke vs Vader
Rey has never beaten Kylo.
Every battle has ended in a form of a draw, or some time for tea and dialogue.

The beat for the OT is Lose, Win.
The first "win" isn't against Vader. I mean, we can call it that if we want, that it's a fight against Vader, but if so then Han's the one who won that fight because Luke was screwed and Han saved his rear - literally.

Luke's success in IV wasn't related to Vader.

But, thematically, let's just go with Win, Lose, Win.
Yes, that's the way the OT works.
The ST goes Stalemate, Stalemate, ________

Which makes sense considering that they're whole point with this one is to bring a balance to the force and pull everything full circle.

Ever time before it's been a battle between different generations and one generation is always beating the crap out of the other one, losing, and then winning.

This time both sides are the same generation and they are stuck at an impasse.

GOOD!

That's the right theme to be on right now for a story about a Force-Crossed relationship between both sides.

It would suck right now for that theme about balance, equal generations, and force-crossed relations if went back and forth.
There would be no physical representation refraining the notion of equality to come to a climax in the third act.


Anyways,
That's my thoughts.
Again; not trying to be rude or sarcastic about your position. Though at times I am sarcastic to Star Wars (because we're like bros, Star Wars and me - we go way back, lol).

If you still feel the same. Rock it man. I just wrote this in case it made any difference.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Well said Jayson. Not much to add apart from this; I really hope Disney has the balls to stop making SW 'episodes' once the Skywalker story has been told. I presume the ST will end on a sort of 'balance' in the force, a new jedi order that is no longer as dogmatic as they were in the past and, in all likelyhood, an end to the Skywalker bloodline.

That is IF Rey is really a nobody (fingers crossed there) and Ben cannot be turned to the light and dies in ep9. No more Skywalkers, no more episodes, just other Star Wars Stories in other timelines and so on. That's what I like about the ST: it is advancing the Skywalker saga in meaningful ways (Luke still learning lessons on the Force by puppet Yoda, turning into a legend, fighting a new emperor (leader) who is of the Skywalker blood alongside a 'nobody' who is strong with the force and so on...)

But I would seriously resent an episode 10 where yet another Skywalker turns/fights good/evil and has to assist/fight a rebellion/dictatorship. By the end of episode 9 the canvas and galaxy should be big enough to start telling whatever side stories they want IMO.

Oh and another thing; i would love to see a prequel to Jaws where they explore the origins and motivations of Bruce the shark..... obviously

 

@Jayson

Nice write up, very comprehensive. Just like you I mean 0 offense, but I almost unilaterally disagree with you haha. But it was well thought out and I'm glad you're getting a SW that appeals to you and your childhood.

I've always been iffy on Clint Eastwood movies. Oh, don't get me wrong, he's a great actor and Unforgiven is one of my all time favorite westerns. But there was the fallen hero... I guess our Luke in TLJ. There was backstory built into the context, like it was built into the context of most westerns, the hero awesome because of his training in the civil war, and the fallout afterward.

Early Superman was fine for that genre, but that hasn't been SW. Nor has Bruce Lee. I'm not familiar with Discworld, but Zoro and the Lone Ranger I remember enjoying as a kid. Again meaning no disrespect, but I guess I equate an already kick ass character (especially such a young one) as being kind of naïve, child like. The story seems somehow shallow because of it. I'm actually stunned critics haven't picked up on it.

I guess this is where we just agree to disagree. What you like I don't, what I like you don't. You find value without explanation, I find value with. I think as another poster somewhere said, I could have accepted Rey more in a spin off, but not within the Saga that has bent over backward to explain itself and character origins.

Still, thanks for the write up. If nothing else it opens my eyes to what those who love TLJ might love about it. I think this is one of the more comprehensive write ups I've read about what those who love TLJ love about it. To be fair, I've stayed away from the positive threads about TLJ.

Anyways, cheers.

 

The problem with no back story for Snoke is that we had seen the Empire defeated in ROTJ and now suddenly in TFA and TLJ we have a new Empire that came out of nowhere. How did they get into that position, how did the victory in ROTJ fall so badly. That needed some exposition. If it is in a book or comic that is not good enough.

You did not need that with Palp because we started SW with him in power. He was the Nazi like fascist dictator who needed to be overthrown.

 

See, my question is....Why do we need to be dictated all that about a mystical energy Force? Why was Shmi chosen to be impregnated by the Force? Rey is a powerful individual at the right place at the right time.

The openness of interpretation is what is cool about mythology.

 

Snoke is the fascist leader in charge of a fascist rebellion who recruits Ben Solo to help in overthrowing the galactic democratic government.

........

Oh and he's evil and cruel.

 

Where is Snoke's force balance opposite btw?

 

In pieces on the floor of his broken ship lol

 

Snoke's motivation? You can't figure it out? You were able to determine that because Palpatine was in power at the beginning and his one desire was to stay in power, therefore all actions he took were motivated from that desire.

At the beginning of TFA, Snoke is in power of an Imperial remnant that is trying to retake control of the galaxy. During the Throne room scene with Kylo he says that because Skywalker still lives, so does hope live in the galaxy that will undermine his ability to take it over. Every decision Snoke makes; turning Ben Solo, destroying the Resistance, destroying the Republic, torturing Rey and then eventually killing her, is all done out of motivation to stay in power, and eradicate the last remnants of the Jedi and hope they bring to the galaxy so that he can take full control over it. He's power hungry, just like Palpatine. So it's not that hard to understand. Snoke, like the Emporer in the OT is portrayed as a typical evil bad guy, wanting control over everything, and will stop at nothing to destroy anything that stands in his way, and use anyone available to obtain his goals, like he was doing with Ben and Hux.

 

This never bothered or confused me, but I understand why it threw some off. TFA calls it "a map to luke skywalker". I thought it was very clearly just a map to the first jedi temple, but eh.

The problem isn't with physics and people can't try to hate a movie. If someone hates it, they didn't like what they saw. Let me ask you, if you enjoyed it, could you just decide you actually hated it?

Lightspeed as a weapon is a problem not because of physcis, but because it could solve almost every problem. Its similar to jumping out of a ship in TFA. If you can jump to lightspeed from in another ship, why wouldn't the falcon do this in ANH to escape the deathstar. If you can jump into another ship, why don't ties and x-wings jump into capital ships?

If the wizard of Oz showed the witch damaged by water in one scene, and walking through the rain later in the film, your brain goes WTF.

Or a more recent example is magic tribble blood in star trek into darkness. Why isn't this used again? It would solve so many problems.

He shouldn't be a clone 35 years later; some are disappointed at the regression. "the jedi of old were arrogant, they let sidious destroy them and the empire take over"....so the solution is to give up and not try?

I never take disagreement as insult. Discussion is fun. I wish more on the net didn't see 'you're wrong" as an attack.

On Snoke. Keeping what you have is different from trying to gain something. Consider the following hypothetical. Dude has a jade idol, and various opponents try to steal it or kill him for it. Its easy to assume that since dude had it, he just wants it for some reason. If there is another movie where a dude is on a warpath to gain the jade idol, killing fools and risking life and limb to get it, wouldn't you want to know why? People are wired to treat loss different from gaining. (at roughly a 2:1 ratio). In both cases "he just wants it for some reason" is all we have, but one feels more satisfying than the other. In the OT, the emp is minding his business, and we follow the people trying to overtake him. We have strong motiviations from those characters. In the ST, we don't have a clue why people are doing the overthrowing. Reverse situations aren't always identical. As a super ridiculous example, a character like boba fett being eaten by a sarlac can be a satisfying end for a character, but if a characters story starts with him being barfed from a creature, thats a bit more wtf-ish.

On Rey Nobody: You making a common mistake by saying "Rey has been told by the untrustworthy periodically caped evil guy that she has no parents"

No she isn't. I don't get why so many people think Kylo told her. She is the one that says her parents are nobody. He just says "you know the truth, you've known for some time. say it". Kylo can't lie to her because Kylo didn't reveal this info to her.

On aptitude: You misconstrue my point a bit. I don't mind that she can fight. I get that she can fight because she had to fight to survive. I also don't mind that she is ultra powerful. I liked Rey overall and enjoyed TFA. I'm a bit bugged that she seems to have gained all these powers and skills over a few days from nowhere.

Pale rider and Bruce lee don't need an explaination of their fighting, because their power is already in place when we meet them. No on needs to see Dooku being trained to follow AOTC. I just think TFA would've been better if she was already able to lift rocks and read minds. Just as anakin was the only human to pod race. No explanation required.

If Rey started flying in TLJ, wouldn't you have been like, why the hell did she suddenly gain this ability? If she could levitate when we met her, it would be less wonky.

On Kylo/Rey and Luke/Vader: Rey was winning and about to strike kylo down before events drove them apart. Even snoke says "you were defeated by a girl who never held a lightsaber before. I think the story is less interesting when the good guy never loses, but to each their own. If Rey beats Kylo in 9, isn't this just more of the same?

Why do you think that?

I wondered this too. The film made is seem like Rey is the lights champion, imbued with powers to be a countervailing force (pun intended) to kylo. Why wan't snokes darkness enough to need a counterpart? Why were sidious and vader left unopposed for 20 years if this is how the force works?

You sound super condescending. "You can't figure it out?" "So it's not that hard to understand" Can't we disagree without me being super dumb?

In the throne room he doesn't say that hope in the galaxy will undermine his ability to take it over. We don't see anything to show that he is primary concerned with ruling. He is a recluse that lets Hux lead the armies. He says that Luke must die to keep the jedi from rising, but why? Luke is in hiding not doing anything. No one has seen him and he fled to die after Ben destroyed his academy.

If he is so old and only hellbent on ruling, why did it take him so long to make a move to take over?

"and use anyone available to obtain his goals" That's my main beef. We don't know his goals. You can just project them onto him, but we don't know why he was using Ben. Especially if Snoke knows Ben's increasing power would result in light rising to challenge the darkness. Why not just kill Ben and be done with it? Hux and the superweapon took out the republic. Kylo doesn't do much to further that goal.

Maybe Snoke wants to farm the galaxy for pupils and has a strong desire to teach. As long as we are just making things up, anything is possible. Maybe he need to control production of the slipper manufactures cause his feet hurt.

If a new light side user showed up in TLJ, killed Luke and Snoke and disappeared, would you say "that's just his function, we don't need to know anything about him? Some of us want to know what motivates the villains.

Kylo is primarly interested in getting strong in the force and being stronger than Vader. He doesn't seem like ruling is his primary goal. I think he is interesting because we know what he wants.

 

Because that's what he did.
Leia and Luke refer to him.
He leads the First Order.

 

How is me replying to you old news?

"Snoke is the fascist leader in charge of a fascist rebellion who recruits Ben Solo"

I'm not disagreeing with this part.

I want to know where you get "to help in overthrowing the galactic democratic government."

What does Kylo do in TFA that overthrows the government? It's all Hux and his armies/ starkiller. Kylo seems to be doing his own thing.

I don't understand your rely. What's what who did? Leia and Luke refering to him, (presumably snoke) somehow means snokes goal is to get Ben to overthrow the republic? Seems like big leaps.

 

Nope. It's what happens in the films. They are bad guys and they destroyed the good guys.

Luke and Leia say that Snoke worked on getting Ben to turn to the First Order. He did.

This isn't quadratic equations or pythagorean theorem.