A reply to most of the TLJ negative criticism.

To be fair, ROTS had a prequel book called Labyrinth of Evil that explained many things, and the book turned out to be awesome.

Maybe there will be something similar for the answers you seek.

 

"Luke is in hiding not doing anything. No one has seen him and he fled to die after Ben destroyed his academy."

Beacaue Luke represents Hope. And Hope spurs rebellions. Snoke even says, that he will give Skywalker the death he desires. But outside of the Resistence, no one really knows that Lukes gone MIA. But if Snoke and the FO wipe him out in a show of force, then THAT is the legend that will spread. And people in the Galaxy will lose HOPE, because no even the great Luke Skywalker stood a chance. But that all changes when Luke pulls a fast one, and he creates yet another legend to inspire hope in the galaxy by "walking out and talking on the entire first order with his laser sword".

"Kylo doesn't do much to further that goal. "
Rewatch the Throne scene between Snoke and Kylo. Snoke tells Kylo that he believed that Kylo would be the one to snuff Skywalker out. He wanted to use Kylo to do the deed for him. Like the Emperor, Smoke obviously didn't like getting his hands dirty. Lol

 

I'm having a hard time following you. Can you be more specific?

Nope to what? I ask three different questions.

1) How is me replying to you old news?

2) What does Kylo do in TFA that overthrows the government? It's all Hux and his armies/ starkiller. Kylo seems to be doing his own thing.

3) Whats "Because that's what he did. " mean? Who did what?

Which question does "nope apply to"? "It's what happens in the films." What's it? Your points are so vauge. If i just reply "noped, its not, I'm right", would you know what I was talking about?"

Luke says Snoke "turned Ben's heart" and Leia said "snoke seduced our son to the dark side".

What does Ben do or say that makes you think his goal is to overthrow the republic? That seems to be Hux's goals, and Hux's actions with starkiller destroyed the republic. Ben and Hux often are at odds and have different goals.

If Ben wasn't in TFA at all, it seems to be that the republic would still have been destroyed.

What specifcially happens in the films to indicate that Ben's goal is to over through the republic?

 

I actually felt obligated to read that one too (seriously).

Oh no! Disney has ruined ROTS for me!! Nooooo!!!!!

Sidenote: I read that after the Disney sale, (yes, you can still read EU books, it's possible...for those that think Disney burned them and erased them from the world's archive memory) only to try and feel better about ROTS, which was good in novel format, bad on film.

 

Is that math reference supposed to mean something is not hard? You know that's elementary school math right?

 

OK, hold on there.
In the OT, Palpatine doesn't actually have it all the way just yet.
Remember Leia, at the beginning of ANH feels no threat at all in walking straight up to Vader and shoving her royal status and power around by threatening that "When the senate hears of this".

And then they blow Alderaan up.

So when the OT kicked off, Palpatine wasn't actually in power to the capacity of a having already owned everything.
And I'm not talking about our view of Palpatine post PT.
I mean pre PT.
In pre PT, watching the OT, you were down with OPP cause you know me....sorry...couldn't resist...just the initials starting rhyming ... anyway

Prior to the prequels, when you flipped on ANH, Palaptine was clearly an insurgence on what was an established order of some democratic nature.

Before there was the prequel trilogy, this was how the take over by the Emperor was delivered to us as an audience.

TAGGE
The Rebellion will continue to gain
a support in the Imperial Senate as
long as....

Suddenly all heads turn as Commander Tagge's speech is cut
short and the Grand Moff Tarkin, governor of the Imperial
outland regions, enters. He is followed by his powerful ally,
The Sith Lord, Darth Vader. All of the generals stand and
bow before the thin, evil-looking governor as he takes his
place at the head of the table. The Dark Lord stands behind
him.

TARKIN
The Imperial Senate will no longer
be of any concern to us. I've just
received word that the Emperor has
dissolved the council permanently.
The last remnants of the Old Republic
have been swept away.

TAGGE
That's impossible! How will the
Emperor maintain control without the
bureaucracy?

TARKIN
The regional governors now have direct
control over territories. Fear will
keep the local systems in line. Fear
of this battle station.

That's it. Right. So the guy just took power and it's now up to the Rebels. Check!

The PT actually made this whole section a little awkward. It's not faulty; just more odd and so is Leia's behavior towards Vader in context to the Palpatine's PT ending. You start thinking silly thoughts like, "Why did he wait so long to disband the rest of the senate if he could do it with such ease?
Why, after all that time, and having ended up as "Emperor of the first Galactic Empire" did he stall out and put wrapping up absolute control on hold for enough time for Luke and Leai to grow up when he just blasted through moving up to Emperor in a matter of a few short years in the PT, and wiped out everything in the Jedi order which threatened him. So...then he just sat down for 20 some-odd years and did nothing?"

So really, to me, as someone growing up with just the OT, I see no difference in the amount of meat and potatoes that I get from Snoke a what I got from Palpatine.
If anything, Snoke's tangent is less perplexing than Palpatine's was in the OT - which left huge gaping questions from the above dialogue section if you ever stopped and thought about it beyond the moment of moving the plot along.

But the point was - it doesn't much matter.
They're role is Lucifer. Evil. Check. Go.

I wasn't mistaken about the scene. I'm aware that he merely implies it and she fills in the blank with her fear.

The thematic equivalent is Vader and Luke. That was the primary point that I was making.
The net effect is the same scene Luke has with Vader in ESB - a paternal conversation and an invitation to join a psychotic mass murderer who's activly chasing their friends down after killing someone that they knew.

I'm not bugged at all by it. That's perfectly fine by me. I don't need a Karate Kid scenario (not to belittle anything - that's just basically what every training scene basically is) in every trilogy, and especially one where there's a magical force that's calling the shots on the universe's control in some vague and powerful way.
Yeah, I'm absolutely alright with Rey just as is. It worked for me brilliantly.

No. I would have been a little confused as to what the symbolic point was with flying, and what theme of the OT or PT were they trying to mirror with that, but in and of the ability concept I wouldn't have minded.

No. Because the whole point of this sequel is that they can't finish off each other and are trying to constantly bypass the other, but can't.
Regardless of what measure was used by Snoke, the point is that Kylo wasn't finished off because they were stopped, and so it was stalled out - it's the equal of a stalemate. It's literally even the opposite shot composition of the beginning when they meet in TFA.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

The deleted bits of the quote I liked and agreed with. 3 I think is a brilliant point, and wanted to leave it singled out for clarity.

1) I don't get how he can lie to her when she told him the answer. How does "you already know the truth, say it' imply "you are no one"? I thought the point of the dark side cave bit gave her the knowledge that she is on her own, parents don't matter. Although I didn't really get that sequence.

2) I don't seem to be able to convey my point well. "I don't need a Karate Kid scenario" I also don't want this. To reference your previous post "I never once cared where a character played by Bruce Lee learned his skills. I just said, "Right. Hero. Can fight. Check." That's all I want out of a hero really."

Me too. I wanted her to have already had all those abilities at the start of the film. The fact that she goes from no powers to many powers over 2-3 days is what seems weird. Its like starting her on day once as newbie Luke or start of the series Harry potter, and having her be ROTJ luke or movie 8 Harry after 3 days.

 

That was an interesting question, I think that all of Palpatine's power plays in the PT, even when he declared himself emperor, were always done according to the republic's laws, since he was playing a long game of deception and manipulation I think abusing his power as soon as he declared himself emperor would not have been in his best interest.
The senate was probably kept around to give legitimacy to his rule until he consolidated enough power to formally disband it. The death star being a key part on this.
I think we can assume that the senate had no real power and it was being controlled by him. The fact that Leia, Mothma, Bail and other senators were behind an armed resistance is proof enough that they thought they were not being successful in opposing him legally through the senate.

 

The cave always shows you your fear. It doesn't show you false or true knowledge about your life.
If you're, somehow, viscerally afraid that you will one day face a clown in battle, then that's what you'll see there.
But it, of course, doesn't work that way. It shows you your deepest insecurity - not just fear.
Luke was afraid of becoming like Vader/Father. Anakin was afraid of losing his Mom. Rey was afraid of always having been and always being alone.

The lie is possible, but not guaranteed. If he's lying, then it's basically by letting Rey. I'm not saying this is the case, but there's nothing saying that Kylo didn't read her fears when they connected across the past two films and then just spin it around on her; banking on the idea that if she thought she was alone, then he could pull her over to him more easily.
That's a possibility. It may or may not be true.
He could easily also be truthful and she doesn't actually have anyone and she's entirely alone.

We won't know until IX. Then we'll know if Rey actually does or doesn't have parents, and it should happen rather a bit near the beginning to get out of the way, like was done in ROTJ.

But this set up was to mirror the set up in ESB - it's a cliff hanger.

Yeah, I don't see any weirdness there.
She's a fighter right out of the gate who knows her own style of a martial art.
The Force cracking up inside of someone like that abruptly, rather than being purposefully mined out of the universe within, makes perfectly natural sense to see pop out with far less effort, but her problem isn't getting the Force to pop up - like Luke - but controlling it and not letting it get out of control.

Where Luke was more like an old and dry well that you had to wait a bit for the flow to get going, she's more an overly pressurized water tank with a slightly deficient regulator valve on the release spigot.

At first it starts popping out without her really designing or beckoning it to do so.
She's more riding a wild bull inside of her.
Now, she already could fight, so it's not making her a badass fighter. It's just adding flame to the sword.

By the end of this film, however, having conquered her fear, she's starting to be able to specifically and calmly control that wild bull inside of her much more smoothly.

I would hope that if Zoro had suddenly become Force flooded like Rey has, that he'd be a badass who really just needed to learn how to keep the damn thing under control instead of whipping out wildly, and I would hope someone like that wouldn't need the full course on combat skills with the Force.

It's not like the Force is a list of spells that you have to learn. It's a fluid extension of the person's self on the Force.

Rey's extension of herself on the Force is like thermite.

And I think that is awesome!

Cheers,
Jayson

 

The Imperial Senate wasn’t the same thing as the Republic Senate. They weren’t a legitimate democratic institution with any real power. It was political theater. Palpatine indulged the illusion that they had sway because it helped maintain the status quo. It was a necessary evil he allowed because it made things easier for him to rule. He could have eliminated it any time he wanted. That all changed with the Deathstar.

Well, he certainly wasn’t working on his modelling career. He was waiting for the completion of a weapon so powerful he wouldn’t have to entertain the pretense of a representational government any more. If a system stepped out of line, he wouldn’t have to impose police actions and spin some diplomatic yarn for the Senate so they could continue on with the farce that they mattered – he could simply wipe them off the map.

The Senate served their purpose for as long as it was convenient for Palpatine. The second they were no longer necessary, he got rid of them. Make sense now?

 

Oh, I'm not really seriously worried about that.

I was merely pointing out that before the PT, the OT we all had, had a Palpatine who was basically very powerful, but wasn't in total control quite yet at the beginning, and along the way he threw out the rest and took full control. He wasn't in full ownership yet, and we also didn't care why he was trying to take full power.

That was rather obvious. We all grew up with a lesson on WW2 history and Hitler, and Julius Caesar - it was implied by the way the Empire looked and the way that a senate council was juxtaposed by the term Emperor.
One minute of the Empire's look and a single line about "The Senate" out of Leia's mouth and immediately we got it.

And that was the motive enough because Palpatine wasn't the point or focus. He was part of the setting, and happened to be a part of the setting that would leap out at you and creep you out.

I felt literally no different looking at Snoke...except that I had wished he was more concealed...but oh well.

Cheers,
Jayson

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2018 ---

That wasn't my point.
I personally don't have a problem with it.

What I was getting at was that back then, we didn't have any of this information to work off of.
We had only but what was on the screen and that was it.

And it was great!
No one walked out and said that Palpatine didn't make sense. We all understood he was the evil, and wanted to wipe everything out and take full control because he was evil and evil is a tyrant, so of course the evil guy wants tyrannical rule. Cool.

This is why I said the PT caused silly questions with ANH; I didn't care about them. I just used that to illustrate that the OT's Palpatine is not inherently suplimental to the PT's Palpatine, because the OT slightly set up the political arrangement of Palpatine a bit differently so that back then we all knew the bare bone outline of the situation. Palpatine wants full control. There's another power other people are worried about within their own government. Leia is part of that government in some capacity. Palpatine wipes them out of the way.

Righto. It's basically PT alpha in a handful of lines.

Anyway, the point was to show that the OT didn't assume him to be in full power yet; he was rising up and taking control and that was that.
Cool.

Cheers!
Jayson

 

I have mixed feelings about Luke in 8. I like the old grumpy version of him, I like the fact he want's the jedi to end. I like all of his down and out stuff. I also love his fight with rey, that is such a good bit.

I don't like the projection scene as it seemed to raise the stakes in the fight, then undercut them by him being a projection and then do a double twist and have him die anyway. I appreciate the centiment that he was using his powers to save lives rather than fight kylo ren, which if he'd been there in person would not have been the message but I felt like TLJ often offered an emotional high point, or a decisive moment for a character and then it completely under cut that moment by revealing a 'twist' or curve ball.

my examples for this are many but some stand out ones are: Big reveal of luke...under cut by it being turned into a comedy moment when he throws the saber over his shoulder.
Big decision of Kylo Ren's to not kill his mother...undercut when it is blown up anyway...then double twist, that decision is undercut by having her fly herself to safety, only to have Kylo's decision further under-cut and made meaningless when he tells Rey she has to let all the Rebels die...becuase we know earlyer in the film He himself didn't commit to that, so it undermines some of his development either way.

Big decision on Poes part to stage a mutiny because his commander was incompetent....undercut by the fact holdo's plan was fine (I'm actually kinda cool with this one as Poe grew as a result of this and it functioned to highlight some problems with the might makes right standard in previous SW films, but regardless it too was a curve ball as we are lead to relate to Poe not Holdo, so it simply makes you as a viewer feel foolish and that goes for most of these moments.

I was going to list more but detailing them is actually a trial, others in breif are: When Finn commits to sacrificing himself but is stopped and when Luke reveals he is powerful enough to be a projection but then dies anyway...and it just overall left me with a feeling that I'd been mis-lead on emotional arcs for 2 hours that did not come to fruition. despite Rey being tempted to the darkside she ended the film very similar to how she started VII same for Finn.

It's interesting in many ways and I don't hate TLJ, its too interesting a film to hate but I feel that the amount of times the arc of characters is undercut and returns to the previously established characterisation at the end of TFA just made it feel like a hollow venture. I think this has something to do with Rian Johnston wanting to defy convention and cliche, which is a good thing but he leans on this too often to make a narrative that actually leads anywhere. This is not exactly the case for the Rey/Kylo arc, as that does actually have significance and change the character Kylo Ren at least.


As for Luke in ROTJ vs TLJ...I felt ROTJ marked the end of his journey into adult hood, and the final part of that was him casting down the saber and saying he was a Jedi. For him to be repeating the same mistake/arc/temptation 30 years later, it felt off to me. I know its true that we never escape our deamons (dark side) it is something we must always keep in check, even a wise person. But I just can't see Luke thinking of killing a pupil/family member in cold blood. and even if he did I agree with Hamill on this, Luke would have pulled himself together after a few weeks/year or so and gone to make amends.

I know Rian was put in a tough position having to think of a compelling reason why Luke Skywalker...the last jedi would abandon the galaxy for five + years but for me the story telling wasn't good enough. I think I could fix my problems with this characterisation in 2 lines of dialog in the film, so its not actually a make or break for me. none of the things I've listed ruined the film for me. they just flavoured the film in a way that makes it all seem unbelievable and inconsequential.

 

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but that wasn't by accident. The reason that you see that everywhere is because it's part of one of the central theme elements of there being a difference between what you think you know and what actually is; that your ideals are not the reality of things. That's what everyone is wrestling with across the whole movie as their personal struggles, and RJ spread that out into the action itself.

It's beautiful!

Again, I'm sorry that you didn't like it.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Yeah I think you're right, I think it was a conscious decision on Rian's part and I actually like him as a director and TLJ made me like him even more but I just think its overused to the point of de-railing the cohesion of the established tone. For me the bit where Luke throws the lightsaber perfectly sums up this way of story telling and also what a hard job Rian was left with.

He was given that exact scene to pick up from, and JJ had built it to be this giant re-introduction to Skywalker. but instead of give the audience what they want he made it a comedy moment. and for me, it pushes the suspension of disbelief. I liked many of his choices but turning what should be character defining moments into comedy, or trivial events wasn't something I enjoyed. But I accept that is just my preference. I think TLJ is a well made film, just not one I can enjoy in its entirety.

 

I didn't take it as comedy, honestly.
Yes, I laughed, because humor is typically caused - intentional or not - by an unexpected opposite of what should occur.
However, I didn't see it as comedically written.

That it caused me to laugh was great, actually.
That amplified the point.

The whole point was ... well, here, I wrote it this way before. I'll do it again because I think it flips the perspective pretty well.

Imagine being Luke in that moment; granting where his head is at this point.
This is a guy who is about as deep as it gets into existential dread at the moment.
He's closed absolutely everything, including the Force, off from himself and he's just sitting there day in and day out chewing on the thought of how wrong and foolish the Jedi have been, how foolish he's been, and how it all meant nothing; that it was all a farce of hubris. He's tired of the world. Tired of the want for there to be good or evil. Tired of the struggle. He's now of the view that the Jedi should be destroyed so that the Force can be let go of and let free.
He's out one day looking at the horizon and thinking this stuff more - contemplating universal ontological duty in deep existential depression.

And then this young woman shows up, doesn't say anything, and just shoves a lightsaber in his face.
He just looks at her. His eyes basically silently screaming, "*sigh* f***ing hell".
She presses it again, motioning that he take it...still not having said even a basic f-ing, "Hello Luke. I'm so-n-so, how are you?"
Just shows up and shoves a sword in his face and expects him to take it and probably run off on some saving people quest...the very thing that's part of what he's thinking needs to stop happening.
He stands there.
She won't stop.
So he takes it, let's her think "Yay!", and then he chucks it. Good, now she'll leave. Idiot.

He doesn't want the lightsaber, and he really doesn't want someone shoving it in his face.
It represents absolutely everything that he's disillusioned with at this point.

So I don't see it as comedy...unless we're talking about the old Greek Comedy, in which case, yes! Very much, yes!

Cheers!
Jayson

 

I do think its played for comedy but to each there own. Though I like your description of it. If Luke had taken the saber and simply let it drop to the floor or if he had taken it and looked at it and then thrown it out to sea, or even inland, I mean anything done with the same intensity and tone as TFA set that moment up to be I would have been fine with it. but I feel like in that scene all the weight of the previous film is chucked away with the saber. the casual throwing over the shoulder is
1. too cheesey for me
2. too much of a knowing comic commentary to the audience. its like Rian is saying 'This isn't going to go how you think' to the audience. and it felt cheap to me as I assume the reason he wanted Luke to act that way, I mean specifically nonchalant rather than sad/angry at seeing the saber is because Rian couldn't figure out how to match the audiences hype so he chose not to try and instead offer us something completely un-expected. I know that mirrors Rey's own feelings towards Luke, so I appreciate that but it just felt very light and non commital to me. and I think all of TLJ was non-commital to its own story and major plot points.

 

Yeah, I think the opposite; definitely.

The central plot theme was stuck to adamantly, and the plots for everything else where wrapped around that point, so they went exactly where they were suppose to go for that point. This was a film of dismantling every icon and expectation regarding the universe and learning to define it for yourself instead of what's been handed to you.
That's the constant refrain in this film to me.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

It was a cheap way to diminish the i,importance of Luke and Finn. Both characters had cliff hangers going into this movie, and both were treated for comedy. That's what you do when you want to avoid creat8ng deep characters.

 

I think you're forgetting something vital here. The entire goal of nullifying Legends was to be able to create a focus on films without having to work within the constraints of decades of prior material which is an understandable and reasonable sentiment. That implies that they wanted the films to be the focus. So why would anyone bother now? Why leave the most interesting parts of the story in novelizations and ancillary material that isn't cinematic? They realize that most of their audience is the movie-going audience so what's even the point to relegating that stuff to novels or comics?

Labyrinth of Evil is probably among my favorite novels in the franchise (hell, a lot of my favorite material in Star Wars isn't even the films much of the time) but this is Lucasfilm largely caving to their old habits in a new continuity. It's just disappointing in that regard. It's why I have such an issue with Bloodline's existence as a novel rather than an element of The Force Awakens. You could have had a bunch of great development for Leia's character even then while also explaining some of the odd developments in the New Republic (i.e. The Resistance).

 

I definitely understood your point. That's why I corrected you. The Emperor did have absolute control of the galaxy at the start of the OT. He just wasn't happy about how he had to go about it - bureaucracy. So he got rid of it the second he had something better to replace it with.

The FO is trying to regain what the Empire lost. The New Republic was a credible threat to that end. It's actually closer in premise to the Rebellion in that sense than anything else - the remnants of the previous government, waging war against the new regime that replaced it, in the hopes of returning to their glory days.